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train

Guest
good point - but it works the same with moxen, lotus, city of brass, ivory tower, etc, etc...

It's just not broken...

crazy - yes it is a little crazy...;) :D
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
Probably yes to not being broken (Oversoul made that claim) but definitely strong and since it would be included in almost every deck (like the Jewelry), restricted material.
 
M

Mikeymike

Guest
This is a long thread, so I didn't read everything (in other words, I might repeat some stuff).

Here are some ideas:

Mono-blue:
- Trade Secrets
- Indentured Djinn (4/4 flyer for 3, with the drawback that the opponent may draw 3 cards)
- Sunder
- Prosperity (likely superior to Braingeyser in here)
- Arcane Laboratory
- Ertai (if you run the Lab)
- Words of Wind (could be particularly evil)

Green
- Exploration/Fastbond (for Sunder, Upheaval, and/or general mass card-draw)
- Storm Seeker
- Malignant Growth (tough to get to work, but it wins with style)
- Spike Weaver (necessary defense)
- Multani (he'll be big)

Red
- Blood Oath
- Wheel of Fortune
- The Red Storm Seeker

Artifacts
- Anvil of Bogardan (especially dangerous with Sunder)
- Mind's Eye (to help unbalance all the cards you are giving your opponent)
- Viseling (backup vise damage)
- Iron Maiden (backup vise damage for Multi-player)
- Silent Arbiter
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
Originally posted by train
There is a turn 1 win with earthcraft... and it is much more broken than vise...
Whoa! Earthcraft more broken than Vise? I SO STRONGLY disagree. I can't see why you would think that unless your definition of broken is way different than my own.
 
T

train

Guest
Per Train-Webster's 40th International Compendium...

Broken "slang"
Definition: first-second turn kill guarantee...
Synonyms - "just wrong", "on the verge of being blue, if not already"
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
I, and most everyone I've heard use the term, consider certain individual cards to be broken. I can't think of ANY individual cards that have a guaranteed 1st or 2nd turn kill by themselves.
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
Tough to say...

You'd probably hear different things from different people...

I think it's not normally a specific type of power, but rather, a degree of power. For example, one player I knew called Holy Day "broken" and was actually surprised that I disagreed with him. From his point of view, Fog effects were quite powerful, but from mine, they were mostly not worth including in any deck...

As to how one separates the wheat from the chaff, I'm not sure...

Is Sol Ring broken? Most players I would ask would say it is. Is Thran Dynamo broken? While many might use it in decks, they wouldn't really call it broken. Is Sisay's Ring broken? I don't think anyone thinks so...

And that's just in the category of generic mana production. A card could be broken because it nets you card advantage. Another might not give major card advantage, but instead put cards in the graveyard (Hermit Druid comes to mind).

Individually, the effects any card might have aren't particularly potent. They must be combined with something else. How easy this is to do, and how big of a game swing this creates are what give the card "power" and make it broken.

So...

Black Vise is direct damage. Well, not exactly. It deals damage, but so does The Rack. They do it for different reasons. The Rack punishes players for losing card advantage. Black Vise punishes them for gaining or maintaining card advantage. Both approaches have strengths. Black Vise is the one that can do more than half the work by itself and is also restricted in Type I. Both are possibly the best at what they do (giving decks that empty opponent's hand or conversely, keep the opponent's hand full a source of damage). When a card is at the top of its class, and that class is something there is a demand for, I tend to consider it broken.

Lifegain isn't such an important effect in competitive Magic. Only the very best of the category, like Zuran Orb, could possibly be considered broken.

Dream Halls is broken so much that other broken cards seem not broken by comparison. It isn't broken or even viable in Type I because of its restriction. Other cards that might be broken in casual magic are not broken in Type I or another tournament format for that reason and others.

I suppose that one could call any card broken, if "brokenness" is defined only be degree, since it would then be relative. But such is the way I see the word being used all the time, and it makes sense, I suppose.
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
For the most part, I agree with you. To me (and from what I've gathered in the past 10 years of the game), "broken" can be boiled down to the best of the best. How or why is it the best of the best? Because they cost less than their effect (Sol Ring), break the fundamental rules of the game (one draw per turn equals one card per turn, so anything allowing more than one draw per turn is potentially broken), causing other cards to be "cheap" (like Dream Halls), or comboing to allow first-turn wins (the ol 'Channel-Fireball).

So while Black Vise can potentially deal 12 damage to an opponent over two turns (the first to cast them and then opponent's to take it), if Earthcraft gives you a first turn win on a single turn (comboing with other cards in the god draw), I would consider Earthcraft more broken. They're each at the top of their class for what they do, but Earthcraft offers the greater effect overall.

At least that's how I look at it.
 
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train

Guest
spidey's second paragraph is probably the best explanationof my feel on it...

Those cards that bring about the win 1st or 2nd turn are the broken ones...

Earthcraft, Memory Jar, Channel, Academy, etc...

to kill quickly with the vise - you need 3-4 of them out first turn... your chances of drawing those 3-4 are very slim... To kill with some of the others you only need 1-2 or 3 specific cards... not the same card...

The probability of getting those 1-3 different is much greater than getting 3-4 of the same, except for basic lands...

Memory Jar probably proves the point best - It could do it in Block Format, without all the power in type 1... and it became banned before you could even play it in tourneys... that's broken...
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
If one looks at it that way, then the only cards that could be broken are combo components and the mana acceleration/card drawing that gets them.

Not all decks are combo decks. In fact, most of them aren't. I would say that any cards that create huge game swings, even without being part of a first turn kill, are still potentially broken...

By itself, Earthcraft turns all your creatures into Llanowar Elves, or a little bit better even...

It needs to be combined with other cards, typically local enchantments like Overgrowth (which are bad by themselves) and the combo was in the past three cards, not counting a land.

The Squirrel Nest combo cuts down on that, but it's still a two card combo and neither of the components does anything by themselves, mainly.

Also it needs another turn in order to make the attack. Unless some sort of weird haste card were able to be brought in, the deck would have a fundamental turn of two, which isn't bad.

A two card infinite combo is no lightweight, after all...

But it's not as good as existing combo decks like The Perfect Storm...

I would definitely call Earthcraft broken, since its effect is still quite powerful.

To me, Black Vise is more broken. It costs only one mana, and does not need a three mana local enchantment to be good. It can deal damage by itself against most decks, more often than not, that damage is greater than what Lightning Bolt does, and Lightning Bolt is generally considered the best direct damage spell. Any land destruction effects, bounce effects, or game slowing effects (like Arcane Laboratory or Mana Short) that you use will greatly increase the power of the Vise, and are good by themselves as well. Vise punishes control the most, and control seems to be the plan for the dominant decks in Type I.

The power level of such a card is easily within the "broken" range. Now, if you were to define broken as a card that is a component of a first/second turn kill, it wouldn't be. But such a definition leaves a lot of cards that have had huge influences or even dominated formats out of the broken range...
 
T

train

Guest
But such a definition leaves a lot of cards that have had huge influences or even dominated formats out of the broken range...
A huge influence, even without format domination is what WoTC uses to justify banning/restricting cards... But most of these banned/restricted of cards shouldn't be...

Stifle exists now - so why not use it as a staple in most decks to stop vise and other activated or triggered abilities...

there are plenty of answers out there - but when cards are restricted and banned, there's no reason to build for handling them... It's really kind of a shame...

There is more artifact hate in the T1 environment that Enchantment hate - and that's not including counters... That's exactly why I think it reasonable to unrestrict things like vise, and bargain...

I just think they should look at the overall Type 1 environment and shake it up a bit...
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
Now that's just crazy. I think Vise would eventually be played around. It would completely warp the metagame, but decks would be built to survive it (or capitalize one it). I think that with some ingenuity, people could prevent the metagame from turning into Vise decks vs. anti-Vise decks. I can sort of see where you're coming from with Vise, although I disagree...

But Bargain unrestricted would completely dominate everything. The only decks able to beat it would be those specifically designed to do so. Turn one kills would be so commonplace that they would be expected. There are very few cards that are potentially more broken than Bargain...
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
I know some cards like Earthcraft are conditional and have to work with others to achieve the first turn kill, but just because the possibility is out there, it had to go. While the Vise is certainly effective, it just doesn't create that solitaire Magic unless you play its support cards (the ones you mentioned).

However, (and I think I said before), I agree that the possibility of dealing damage from the start and that any color can include them make it eligible for restriction. Maybe today is different from 9 years ago, but if it was unrestricted, I think all Type 1 players are going to have to build decks expecting the Vise (and probably including it). There's just no way around it. And when one card becomes a "must-have" in all decks, similiar to the jewelry where if unrestricted you put 4 copies in, then it hurts all deck-building.
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
Originally posted by Spiderman
I know some cards like Earthcraft are conditional and have to work with others to achieve the first turn kill, but just because the possibility is out there, it had to go. While the Vise is certainly effective, it just doesn't create that solitaire Magic unless you play its support cards (the ones you mentioned).

However, (and I think I said before), I agree that the possibility of dealing damage from the start and that any color can include them make it eligible for restriction. Maybe today is different from 9 years ago, but if it was unrestricted, I think all Type 1 players are going to have to build decks expecting the Vise (and probably including it). There's just no way around it. And when one card becomes a "must-have" in all decks, similiar to the jewelry where if unrestricted you put 4 copies in, then it hurts all deck-building.
I agree completely about Vise, although I think that perhaps more than any other card, Earthcraft could safely be unrestricted. It wouldn't benifit control or aggro type decks, so it would have to be used as a combo component...

I don't have all the information on Type I, but I don't know that a Squirrel Nest/Earthcraft combo deck (the most efficient infinite combo with Earthcraft) could even compete with other combo decks in Type I. One of the combo components is 1G to cast, the other is 1GG. The combo also requires a basic land to go off, and that means the deck has to use BASIC FORESTS which severely weakens the mana base and forces the deck to be very green heavy. What other cards would be used? I don't think it could compare to decks like Dragon and The Perfect Storm...

I could be wrong though...
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
Well, like I said, I think it's the possibility for a turn 1 win is why Earthcraft is restricted. Same thing with Channel; it doesn't win on its own but needs a burn spell.

Although I think Earthcraft was used with Mesa something or other 'cause I think it was called "MesaCraft" or something, not Squirrel's Nest.
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
I don't know why Channel's restricted actually. That was why it was restricted before, but then they unrestricted it because they decided it wasn't a threat any more. I left for a while and when I came back Channel was restricted again...

Sacred Mesa was one of the card used with Earthcraft BEFORE Squirrel Nest was printed. That was a three card, two colour combo (Earthcraft, Sacred Mesa, Overgrowth). The Squirrel Nest combo deck was called "Army of Squirrels" or some such thing, and it may have been used in Type I, but it wasn't dominant or even close, as far as I know.

The combo doesn't win on turn one anyway, since its creatures have summoning sickness and also have been tapped. The deck could add something to kill, like Altar of Dementia, but that adds ANOTHER card to the combo and also takes more mana to cast on turn one.

If any card that can possibly get a turn one win gets restricted, then a lot more cards would be restricted...

Take Charbelcher for example, which is a better deck than Army of Squirrels anyway. Again--I could be wrong about this, but I don't see how right now...
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
I don't remember Channel ever becoming unrestricted.

Not sure of the combo myself but it might have combo'd with Goblin Bombardment or something. Anyone else know?
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
Gobling Bombardment? So the deck is RG then? And in order to win first turn, you need something like Forest, Lotus, Mox Ruby, Elvish Spirit Guide, Earthcraft, Squirrel Nest, Gobling Bombardment...

That's not a very likely opening hand. There could be some other ways, but it seems pretty unlikely...

On Channel. Well, it was unrestricted...

But it was also banned... :eek:

I forgot to mention that... :rolleyes:

But still, I think the Channel combo is reasonably easier to pull off than the Earthcraft one...
 
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