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- Thread starter Oversoul
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T
train
Guest
It takes 6 cards to shoot off infinite critters first turn... and could even drop a concordant crossroads if available...
First turn:
Lotus, Sol Ring, Lotus Petal, Forest, Squirrel Nest the Forest... make a squirrel... play earthcraft, make squirrel... wash rinse repeat... (drop a concordant crossroads for the kill at some point...)
2nd turn...
Drop an altar, bombarment, whatever you wish... and at this point they don't have summoning sickness...
I'd like to note this is mono-color kill here...first turn... green... scary...
First turn:
Lotus, Sol Ring, Lotus Petal, Forest, Squirrel Nest the Forest... make a squirrel... play earthcraft, make squirrel... wash rinse repeat... (drop a concordant crossroads for the kill at some point...)
2nd turn...
Drop an altar, bombarment, whatever you wish... and at this point they don't have summoning sickness...
I'd like to note this is mono-color kill here...first turn... green... scary...
T
train
Guest
sorry...
vitalize...
but it would take another mana - that's Why I mentioned second turn...
then you don't need crossroads or vitalize...
vitalize...
but it would take another mana - that's Why I mentioned second turn...
then you don't need crossroads or vitalize...
T
train
Guest
so here's the other one...
Lotus, Channel, Squirrel Nest, Forest, Earthcraft,... (insert kill here)
Lotus, Channel, Squirrel Nest, Forest, Earthcraft,... (insert kill here)
Oversoul
The Tentacled One
That's still two specific restricted cards in the opening hand, plus two other specific, non-restricted cards (assuming Earthcraft were unrestricted), plus a basic Forest, plus some kill that relies on colorless mana only, like Altar of Dementia or something...
I won't say that there's no hope for it, because there is...
But as far as dominating the format or even warping it, I think not...
I'd rather face this deck than the Goblin Charbelcher deck. There's no talk of restricting Charbelcher though...
Or Academy Rector. Thanks to Cabal Therapy, it can easily fetch Bargain first turn, which can easily give enough card advantage for a first turn win...
I think it would be pretty safe to unrestrict Earthcraft. I don't even know why it's restricted in the first place...
Well, I'm not sure what restricted Channel exactly either (Torch?) but I can see how THAT card might get out of hand...
I won't say that there's no hope for it, because there is...
But as far as dominating the format or even warping it, I think not...
I'd rather face this deck than the Goblin Charbelcher deck. There's no talk of restricting Charbelcher though...
Or Academy Rector. Thanks to Cabal Therapy, it can easily fetch Bargain first turn, which can easily give enough card advantage for a first turn win...
I think it would be pretty safe to unrestrict Earthcraft. I don't even know why it's restricted in the first place...
Well, I'm not sure what restricted Channel exactly either (Torch?) but I can see how THAT card might get out of hand...
T
train
Guest
If you unrestrict earthcraft, you can still pull of a second turn kill, but it is a little more difficult...
I've been trying to find why cards got restricted... I got the Earthcraft announcement, but all it says is that it combos with something.
Channel was restricted just because of good 'ol Channel/Fireball. Black Lotus, land, Channel, for 19, use the other two mana to bring the Fireball up to 20. These were the days before FoW and Torch, of course.
Channel was restricted just because of good 'ol Channel/Fireball. Black Lotus, land, Channel, for 19, use the other two mana to bring the Fireball up to 20. These were the days before FoW and Torch, of course.
Oversoul
The Tentacled One
Yeah, but then after restricting it they banned Channel in Type I for a while...
From 1995 to 2000 actually...
Which is sort of odd. You'd think restricting it would have been enough. Same thing happened to Mind Twist. I can't think of what caused that series of events though...
Channel-Torch is a nice, fast deck, but it's not the most reliable either. I'm not sure if it needs to stay restricted now, but I would be hesitant to unrestrict something that gives tons of mana as early as turn one...
From 1995 to 2000 actually...
Which is sort of odd. You'd think restricting it would have been enough. Same thing happened to Mind Twist. I can't think of what caused that series of events though...
Channel-Torch is a nice, fast deck, but it's not the most reliable either. I'm not sure if it needs to stay restricted now, but I would be hesitant to unrestrict something that gives tons of mana as early as turn one...
Oversoul
The Tentacled One
Quite simply, Belcher's not reliable enough. I don't expect to see it on the restricted list any time soon...
Berserk had been proven in Type I before though, and it was eventually unrestricted on the basis that it was no longer as powerful...
Although I think Channel will probably stay on the list for the forseeable feature...
Berserk had been proven in Type I before though, and it was eventually unrestricted on the basis that it was no longer as powerful...
Although I think Channel will probably stay on the list for the forseeable feature...
T
train
Guest
Do you want to know how to break belcher?!...
(Here I go again... )
Mana Severance...
(Here I go again...
)Mana Severance...
T
train
Guest
the reason I listed belcher with severance, is because you have the time to build up what you need, and can then pop the belcher - without having to rely on the currently "un-reliable" build...
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Exaulted_Leader
Guest
Earthcraft!?
NO! NEVER!
Earthcraft was restricted in light of the following card, which - when combined with Earthcraft - provides one of the cheapest and effective infinite token combos ever:
Squirrel Nest.
It sounds shoddy, but a 2-card combo with a peak curve of 3 mana that can provide infinite tokens as early as turn 2 consistently is terrible, gut-wrenching business. ICK! ICK! ICK! Bad Earthcraft!
Unrestricting Earthcraft would unleash the most terrible combo demons to ever see the light of day upon the Vintage scene. Even the king of combo killers, Fish, would cower in fear.
NO! NEVER!
Earthcraft was restricted in light of the following card, which - when combined with Earthcraft - provides one of the cheapest and effective infinite token combos ever:
Squirrel Nest.
It sounds shoddy, but a 2-card combo with a peak curve of 3 mana that can provide infinite tokens as early as turn 2 consistently is terrible, gut-wrenching business. ICK! ICK! ICK! Bad Earthcraft!
Unrestricting Earthcraft would unleash the most terrible combo demons to ever see the light of day upon the Vintage scene. Even the king of combo killers, Fish, would cower in fear.
Oversoul
The Tentacled One
Spidey: As I already said, when it was unrestricted, it was also banned. This was from about '95 to 2000 or so...
Train: I know the Belcher/Severance combo was good in Extended. But in Type I, it's faster to do it without lands and lose the need to play a second card in order to win. The deck's inability to pack disruption means it needs speed. Lots of speed. Oh well, I don't like Belcher anyway...
Exaulted_Leader: I disagree about Earthcraft's strength in Type I. I've already indicated that numerous times in the previous posts on this thread, so I'll avoid repeating myself and just say that Earthcraft wouldn't be releasing any demons. It might be competitive, but dominance is safely out of reach...
Train: I know the Belcher/Severance combo was good in Extended. But in Type I, it's faster to do it without lands and lose the need to play a second card in order to win. The deck's inability to pack disruption means it needs speed. Lots of speed. Oh well, I don't like Belcher anyway...
Exaulted_Leader: I disagree about Earthcraft's strength in Type I. I've already indicated that numerous times in the previous posts on this thread, so I'll avoid repeating myself and just say that Earthcraft wouldn't be releasing any demons. It might be competitive, but dominance is safely out of reach...
Sorry, it wasn't clear from that post that you basically meant that it was moved from the restricted list to the banned list (that IS what you mean, right? ) What I got from that post was that at one point it was unrestricted, and at one point it was banned, but they did not necessarily overlap.
About Earthcraft: Apparently it's all about fast (infinite?) mana. And if Sol Ring and Mana Vault is restricted merely for producing 2 or 3 mana for 1, if you can go infinite, that's definitely worse.
) What I got from that post was that at one point it was unrestricted, and at one point it was banned, but they did not necessarily overlap.About Earthcraft: Apparently it's all about fast (infinite?) mana. And if Sol Ring and Mana Vault is restricted merely for producing 2 or 3 mana for 1, if you can go infinite, that's definitely worse.
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Exaulted_Leader
Guest
Spidey:
Earth + Squirrel Nest. Tap Nest, produce token. Tap token, untap Nest. Repeat to infinitum. Infinite mana, infinite tokens (though you have to wait until next turn for the mana).
Yeah, I'd see this is a problem (if it weren't a 2-card combo, and if the highest casting cost among the 2 cards weren't 1GG, things would be different).
Oversoul:
I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. Earthcraft is just simply too good to be a 4-of in the T1 environment. This fact has been physically demonstrated in front of me hundreds of times in casual play.
Personally, I think that if any card could be unrestricted in the current vintage format, it should be Demonic Tutor... but that's for another post.
Earth + Squirrel Nest. Tap Nest, produce token. Tap token, untap Nest. Repeat to infinitum. Infinite mana, infinite tokens (though you have to wait until next turn for the mana).
Yeah, I'd see this is a problem (if it weren't a 2-card combo, and if the highest casting cost among the 2 cards weren't 1GG, things would be different).
Oversoul:
I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. Earthcraft is just simply too good to be a 4-of in the T1 environment. This fact has been physically demonstrated in front of me hundreds of times in casual play.
Personally, I think that if any card could be unrestricted in the current vintage format, it should be Demonic Tutor... but that's for another post.