Visificationnessity!

[Exaulted_Leader]

...Fertile Ground? For what purpose?

One would think that having 100,000,000,000,000,000 mana to play with and 2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 1/1 tokens to attack with would be enough.

EDIT:

Here's a hypothetical deck-list:

Combo

4x Squirrel Nest
4x Earthcraft

Control

4x Force of Will
4x Misdirection
4x Daze (...maybe 3x Daze and 1x Stifle?)

Fetch

4x Intuition
4x Brainstorm
1x Frantic search
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk
1x Windfall

Win

1x Altar of Dementia
1x Stroke of Genius
1x Treasure Trove
1x Hurricane
1x Stream of Life

Mana

3x Birds of Paradise (Maybe cut for more control?)
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Emerald
1x Black Lotus
4x Tropical Island
4x Polluted Delta
4x Land Grant
4x Windswept Heath

 

[Oversoul]

What would Earthcraft's ability target in your deck?

Edit: Okay, I saw what you said in the other thread, so now I'm changing this to...

Gee, I wish my friends were DUMB enough to let me use Earthcraft on nonbasic lands...

 

[Spiderman]

Exaulted_Leader: I'm surmising since the Restriction announcement did not say what the specific combo was, but I'm guessing you need the Fertile Ground to generate infinite mana to cast something like Stroke of Genius or Fireball and any x death spell so you can win on turn 1. With just the Nest and the land, you just create critters (unless you have a haste spell in play also).

But Fertile Ground was just in some articles I read. You can probably get away with creating critters and Goblin Bombardment for the kill.

At any rate, Earthcraft is a key piece no matter how you look at it

 

[train]

I 'd like to state that earthcraft is not broken - just crazy...

Yeah - using Earthcraft on non-basics would be cool...

Gaea's Cradle anyone?...

 

[Spiderman]

Heh, originally it was supposed to be any land, according to Rosewater's design notes (he wanted a global Ley Druid effect). But (ab)use with the Cradle and Tolarian Academy in play-testing caused the change to just basic lands...

 

[Oversoul]

In response to Spidey's first post (the one following my last one), the haste effect in play still requires something to untap all those tokens in order to kill.

In response to Spidey's last post...

Um, Cradle and Academy were printed after Earthcraft. Were they designed before it or something like that?

 

[Spiderman]

Originally posted by Oversoul
In response to Spidey's first post (the one following my last one), the haste effect in play still requires something to untap all those tokens in order to kill.

It probably combos with Goblin Bombardment then.

Um, Cradle and Academy were printed after Earthcraft. Were they designed before it or something like that?

WOTC designs and playtests sets two years in advance, so while Mirage block was going on, Tempest and Urza's Block would have been together in their Future League.

 

[train]

The Future League is the next block coming out... The Future Future League is the block coming out after that...

WoTC attempts to play test all Future and future future cards will all current exisiting ones...

And sometimes stuff slips through the cracks...

*cough*Dream Halls, Memory Jar *cough*

 

[Exaulted_Leader]

Oh, geez - my brain isn't winding right. I though Earthcraft stated target Forest for some reason... x.x. I also thought for some odd reason that Lion's Eye Diamond could only produce red mana, and looked rather feeble-headed when I tried to call someone on using it for UUU. Doh!

Well, the simple solution would then be to simply replace the dual lands with forests and islands. It's not a turn 1 kill, I'm aware - but turn 2 kills tend to be just as efficient in T1 (Again, you don't need Fertile Ground for this. Turn 1, produce 8 million tokens. Turn two, use 4 million or so for mana, use the other 4 million for attacking. Board sweepers are ineffective against this combo, due to the fact that you'll always end-up with SOMETHING untapped to respond with).

 

[Oversoul]

Which is why I have the position on it that I currently do. Turn two kills are always fast enough for Type I, but it still seems to me that the deck would be worse than Belcher, or if it were a disruptive combo deck, rather than all out combo, worse than TPS...

Yeah, I know about the Future Future League. I just wasn't sure about how things were worked out back when Tempest was being designed. Things have changed after all...

 

[Spiderman]

But the point is that it CAN be a T1 Kill and I think has actually been used (or dominated at one point) so that's why it got restricted. Haven't heard anything about Charbelcher so maybe people can't get it to work.

I think they've always had something like the Future Leagues for development, but they "codified" it and made the names around the Tempest/Urza development.

 

[Oversoul]

I've never heard of Earthcraft dominating...

The fact that it can be used shouldn't be what restricts it. Any card can be used...

Oh, people can get Belcher to work. I don't like it. I think it's unreliable. But its seen play...

I'm not an expert on the archetype, but the version of Appr. I downloaded had a default Belcher deck for T1. Here it is...

1x Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Timetwister
1x Time Walk
1x Tinker
4x Duress
4x Dark Ritual
1x Windfall
1x Yawgmoth's Bargain
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Memory Jar
1x Demonic Consultation
1x Channel
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Land Grant
4x Eladamri's Vineyard
1x Lotus Petal
1x Lion's Eye Diamond
1x Grim Monolith
1x Mana Vault
1x Mana Crypt
1x Sol Ring
1x Chrome Mox
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Emerald
4x Chromatic Sphere
4x Goblin Charbelcher
1x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
Sideboard:
4x Stifle
3x Unmask
4x Oxidize
4x Xantid Swarm

I'm sure that there are better versions out there, but you get the idea...

 

[Spiderman]

<shrug> To tell the truth, me neither, but I don't really follow Type 1 tourney news. I basically get the announcements and then have to backtrack and find out why.

Maybe I'll ask rakso.

 

[Oversoul]

Yeah, I'm sure he would know something more about it.

 

[rakso]

Originally posted by Spiderman
<shrug> To tell the truth, me neither, but I don't really follow Type 1 tourney news. I basically get the announcements and then have to backtrack and find out why.

Maybe I'll ask rakso.

If I remember right, Earthcraft + Sacred Mesa + Wild Growth was seen as too strong a I.5 combo based on unrestricted cards at the time. Thing is, there's the policy of tying the I.5 ban and Type I restrict lists, so there you have it.

 

[Spiderman]

Ah, so it had more to do with Type 1.5. Type 1 was just caught in the fallout...

Thanks rakso...

 

[Oversoul]

What I'm wondering is if Earthcraft is still too strong in 1.5 now...

 

[Spiderman]

Beats me.

 

[Oversoul]

It's in an environment with Force of Will, Bazaar of Baghdad, Mishra's Workshop, Mana Drain, Gobling Welder, Worldgorger Dragon, Skullclamp, Standstill, Mishra's Factory, Hymn to Tourach, Lightning Bolt, Dark Ritual, Duress, Sinkhole, Intuition, The Rack, Oath of Druids, Masticore...

As with Type I, I think Earthcraft could compete, but dominating is another matter entirely...

 

[Spiderman]

Well, some of the cards are new like Skullclamp, Worldgorger Dragon, and Goblin Welder from when Earthcraft was put on the list but others already existed. Maybe they still couldn't stop the combo... if it's a turn 1 win, only Force of Will had a chance of stopping it, which would mean everyone would have to play blue to include it.