Visificationnessity!

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
Hymn to Tourach says "no" too...

Not in the same way as counterspells, I agree. Being that I run a Forbidian deck though, I'm obviously not opposed to saying "no" once in a while...
 
T

train

Guest
I prefer to think that hymn to Tourach is more of a "Maybe you don't need these" type of card...

It doesn't get to pick and choose what is said "no" to...

I was going to say strip mine, but armageddon is a "no" card... as is "wrath"... well, with indestructible, they're as close as you can get...;)
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
There are uncounterable spells too...

Anyway, I realized that I had not built a Visificationnessity deck yet, so I threw one together, and it is SO bad. I mean seriously, it is so suboptimal. It has two Tradewinds, but not enough creatures to utilize them properly. It has only one Boomerang, because my others were in my FinishingSchool and ArcticCircus decks, and it also has no FoW for the same reason. It's basically random countermagic with random bounce and some good creatures, and the Vises...

However, I found out the perfect recipe for Visificationnessity. 4x Black Vise and 56x other cards. It really doesn't matter what's in a Visificationnessity decklist, as your opponent will never see it. You will watch him drop a first turn Vise, then, desperately lay down your Treetop Village. Then he'll play ANOTHER VISE. So you'll know that you need a way to empty this hand and pass up Wall of Blossoms for Llanowar Elves, only to have it Boomeranged. Then, oh, that's it. The fact that your opponent only has one Boomerang and is actually using Memory Lapse matters not.

Vise is so broken.
 
T

train

Guest
Vise isn't broken...

but playing a lotus or ritual and dropping three of them is just wrong...

The uncounterable spells have to be played first, and it is unlikely that happens if you run across a U/W control deck...

Abeyance is just that wrong...
 
H

Homestar

Guest
there is something cheaper then a darkritual and 3 vises, a swamp, 2 dark ritual, 4 vises, 2 mana burn.

LOL, j/k, ne way, yea, 3 vises on the first cant be fun to play against, i have never had the pleasure,i mean misfortune to do that tho.
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
Originally posted by train
Vise isn't broken...

but playing a lotus or ritual and dropping three of them is just wrong...

The uncounterable spells have to be played first, and it is unlikely that happens if you run across a U/W control deck...

Abeyance is just that wrong...
Vise is broken. I realize now how important the restriction of that one card is.

If Earthcraft were unrestricted, it would probably do nothing to the Type I metagame.

If Braingeyser were unrestricted, it might make some decks more powerful, but it would probably be safe.

If Necropotence were unrestricted it would have some distorting effects, I suppose, but would not be as bad as a lot of people like to think. Although it would probably break another unrestricted card too much and lead to complications.

If Gush were unrestricted, it would heavily imbalance things.

But if Black Vise were unrestricted, it would completely dominate the game. Control based strategies would be completely hosed to death, and every deck would have four Black Vises or be equipped to fight Black Vise as effectively as possible.

Of course there are cards that would be even worse if unrestricted, but the amount is lower than I initially considered it might be.
 
T

train

Guest
or be equipped to fight Black Vise as effectively as possible
IMO - A deck build should be able to handle this even though there aren't 4 in decks...

And you have to remember how fast, and how cheap everything is to play in type 1 - vise is a lot different in the metagame, because everyone is not holding 4 or 5 4-5 casting cost cards...

Drop 2 zero casting cost artifacts, a land, and play a spell, and you're under the vise... or all of them...

Even if an opponent was to drop 3-4 of them - you might as well count on the other opponent playing a force of will and pitching a card to counter 1 of them - so they take only 2-3 damage that first turn, and stay under the vise from then on...

It's the format that makes the difference - in 1.5 - yeah - maybe it's broken, but it's not broken in type 1...

I say this with experience competing in the format, and knowing that a deck based on 4 vises, and making your opponent keep a full hand, only means he gets to kill you, or go perpetual sooner...

:cool:
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
So you think that unrestricting Black Vise wouldn't have a HUGE impact on Type I?

I think it would be terrible. It would almost kill control decks by itself. Library of Alexandria, Necropotence, Ancestral Recall, Land Tax, Wheel of Fortune, Timetwister, all look less appealing with Vise. Some decks wouldn't even notice it, but control decks would have to change completely to combat Vise, and control is an important element in Type I. It would be interesting to see what would happen, but degenerate in the end, I'm sure.
 
T

train

Guest
nope - not huge... remember, type 1 is all cards...

Type 1 is really too fast - even with the decks you named...

A lot of the cards you mentioned would make vise more dangerous if they were unrestricted... otherwise it gets stopped by some small time stuff...

My simple answer to it would be eon hub - screw upkeep, All I need to do is draw...

I'd expect you'd see a lot of people do something like stick eon hub in their decks... then black vise does diddly...

tax - no longer needed, neither is ivory... and that 1 card shuts down all 4 vises - it's better than disenchant...

:cool:
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
I didn't name any decks. But Vise would rip right through ANY control deck I can think of, and with a little help from a synergistic deck, would probably do well against aggro-control and maybe some other decks as well.

You're bringing up Type I's speed again, but it's not like Vise costs a lot or something. The decks that get fast kills are either aggro or combo, for the most part. Aggro could be disrupted and the Vise would do the killing, although some aggro decks might be able to empty their hands more quickly and be more resiliant. Some combo decks might be unaffected by it, but others would not. The relatively unaffected decks would probably be the decks that would start to dominate the format, since control would be too weak in an evironment with four Vises.
 
T

train

Guest
You didn't mention any decks... I even worded it correctly in the next sentence - "cards you mentioned"... :rolleyes:

I don't think it would kill control decks per se... as they could just as easily adapt to vise being in the format, by playing the hub or something to deal with vise on their own...

I can see how filling the hand - with the cards you mentioned -Library of Alexandria, Necropotence, Ancestral Recall, Land Tax, Wheel of Fortune, Timetwister, could look less appealing with Vise. But I think you'd still see them - even in decks with vise...

Card advantage has proven to be much stronger than life when it comes to decks winning... Granted, a lot of vises could cause some hurt - but in drawing all those cards, there's got to be a card somewhere that helps you deal with vise.
 
T

train

Guest
I'll never understimate the power of non-blue magic cards... could I break vise - maybe... could my opponent in type 1 easily handle it - yes...;)

"But I over-indulge in estimating the power of blue ones...";)
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
Well, any card is easy to handle. Almost all of them can simply be countered with Counterspell, one of your favorite blue cards... :p

Vise could be dealt with by being countered, discarded, hit with artifact destruction, swept away by global destruction, stolen, bounced, cancelled by Ivory Tower, stopped entirely by killing the Visifier, made impotent by reduction of hand size, cancelled by Eon Hub, etc.

But it's still 1 mana for often massive damage over typically only a few turns. Even if the opponent kills the Vise with a destructive card, it's still a one for one trade, and many time the Vise snuck in a little damage before being blown up. A deck that works well with Vise can compensate for that by playing with other like cards. Things like Sinkhole, Stone Rain, Sphere of Resistance, Tangle Wire, Winter Orb, Boomerang, etc. can magnify the effects of Vise while being good cards on their own. And even by itself the Vise can pull its weight against a slow deck or an opponent who has too slow of a hand to deal with the Vise. Certainly some decks wouldn't consider the Vise a big problem, but they're the minority and it can still do SOME of the work against even those decks. I call that kind of power and versatility broken.

Not as broken as Yawgmoth's Bargain or Demonic Tutor, but still a crazy card...
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
The thing about Vise is that it can go in any deck, so even if you go first and only get 1 out, that's 3 damage to your opponent right there, without having taking a turn. And every deck will include 4 copies of it just for that chance and more. Look at the last tournament in which it was allowed (sometime in '95 I believe) and it was in 90-95% of the top 8 decks. No matter what other cards were in there. It's the same reason Misha's Factory was restricted back then.

Originally posted by Oversoul
If Earthcraft were unrestricted, it would probably do nothing to the Type I metagame.
Isn't there some infinite combo involved with that or turn 1 win?
 
T

train

Guest
There is a turn 1 win with earthcraft... and it is much more broken than vise...

but 3 damage before my opponent takes a turn, is pretty common, even without the vise...;)
 
T

train

Guest
It's easily done in black - but the deck has to be built for it...

It can be done in green...

but mainly in red...

And second turn will incorporate the kill ala fireblast...:rolleyes:
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
Right, but with the Vise, you don't "have to build a deck to do it". All you have to do is throw them in. Red, Blue, Green, White, Black, it doesn't matter.
 
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