Religion: Justifactions

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by DÛke, Feb 13, 2003.

  1. Shiro Time Devourer I have returned!

    The Truth either draws people to it longingly, or away from it irrevocably. Either way, it's the people that refuse it, and not the other way round.
  2. DÛke Memento Mori

    ...

    Shiro - there is no debate in what you say. You are correct. The main concern, was and still is, is defining what is more truthful. No one should be looking for the truth...but certainly there is a more valuable sense than another...and thus, more truthful. But observe this: the faithful tell us of an absolute truth, and therefore, we should stop inquiring of life. They, of all of humanity, claim to be the modern crusaders of the truth itself...

    ...is it a surprise, then, that the minute one talks to them, they reveal themselves to be the abominations that they shroud under their charm, the cancer, the blemishes they try to mask?

    ...is it a surprise, then, that they dislike the logical senses and the reasoning spirits, avoid debates (they cannot reason), avoid even conversations that as little as dive into the realm of actually conversing? For right then, their crusade unveils itself as a fad, a scam, a circus for ugly children; a crusade consisted of those who desire so but rather not feel, who want but restrain from getting, who attempts to speak but are purposely disabled, who victimizes themselves; they of all people desire everyone's pity, for they portray themselves as "hurting angels," and so they want a passer-by to say: "Awww. Awww. Awww. Awww. Awwwwww! Look at that angel! Why is it being pained! So God help it!!!" One, instead, should feel disgusted by such samples, for that is what they all are: architectures, blueprints, samples, and products – they are “material.”

    ...is it a surprise, then, that they contradict themselves countless times verbally, which is fine, but their contradiction infects their entire lives - they live in double standards, in a duality, multi-faced, all in a multi-faceted lie…

    ...and is it a surprise that they, of all people, behold "miracles?" They would argue against this by claiming their logical reasoning as such: faith brings miracles, therefore, faith is the cause and miracles are the effect. Whereas, they should at least entertain the idea that it might be as such: we hope of a God who gives, and since we deliberately try to misunderstand ourselves and our surrounding life, we begin to understand and see a "different aspect" of life, and this we now call "miracle" from "the beyond." But no! Such a...such a shame! of me to even try to reason as such! How irrational, how evil of me!

    ...and can we notice, now, how they do try to be logical? Hence they try to justify their miracles and explain cause and effect? So what is the nonsense they utter when they claim that "reason kills faith?" The stench of another deep and unforgiving hypocrisy...

    ...and is it a surprise, after all this, that I call them jokers, jesters, and fools? Have they not with awe-inspiring devotion to idiocy earned these titles?

    Faith is as far away from truthfulness as it possibly can be. But it is not the farthest. The farthest are the faithful themselves, who marvel in it, deliberately stupid so as to be able to marvel at all...

    I have spoken to some faithful people who, indeed, appear to be really faithful. They do not even live in contradiction. But upon examination, one sees that they had lived a terrible, abusive, tragic life. And so we can sum up their psychology and the whole philosophical aspect of their nature as such: would a starving man reject a free meal, no matter how cheap it was?

    Many of the faithful are the groups of people who have lost someone or something valuable to them, were engulfed by sadness, read a promising "Holy" Book, and then re-emerged as the people we observe today: claiming to have been cured by these Books, when in actuality, they cured themselves, but they hate themselves with criminal passion, and so they disparage their ability to heal themselves, they disparage all faith in themselves merely for the faith in another object: an idol.

    …is it a surprise that they avoid and dislike he who loves himself, who respects himself, who has faith in himself, who is disgustingly confident?

    …is it a surprise that the term “arrogant” was invented – to suggest “arrogance” as an unpleasant, even immoral quality, when secretly, they all would love to love themselves, to have such sheer confidence, such power and control, such deliberation, determination, passion, such a flying spirit…

    …are they all not, very secretly, envious? Merely burning, lusting with undying flames of desire and wanting? Do they not all, when no one is looking, say to themsleves: "I wish?"
  3. Shiro Time Devourer I have returned!

    I'm probably asking for it here (and it might decrease the chances on receiving it, knowing you as well as i do), but not only is faith the spirit of stupidity and deception, but those who follow it are even worse? You just said that it's not the ideal, it's the person who is worse of. This is ad hominem in its purest form. At least I know I'm not your total antithesis, agreeing on my last statement, biut disagreeing polarly on everything around it.

    We don't hate each other. We just know our faults and know exactly Who will solve them. I hope that, even at your last minute on earth, you begin to realize the finer points of why Aku, Eric, and I believe what we do. God works His will, his way, in his timing.
  4. DÛke Memento Mori

    That is not what I said. An ad hominem would look like this:

    I recite certain facts about the author or the person making the claim, and then attack the entire claim or belief based solely on such an attack.

    I have not done that.

    What I have done is look at faith, and saw that it is was bad. The painting is ugly. The song is unmusical. I rejected the filth immediately...my spirit did not tolerate...

    ...and then I attempted to look at how anyone with even a decent sense of sniffing what is rotten would believe and find pleasure and joy in such an unpleasant and unhappy aroma...

    ...the faithful turned out to be stupid. That's right: stupid and low. They were not the reason why faith, morals, values, and all the garbage that revolves around the social life...are all valueless and hateful...

    ...they are not the reason behind anything.

    ...in one of my replies to Gizmo here, if you notice, my suggestion was not only to eradicate the people whom are faithful and culture-lovers - no - the goal was to eradicate the entire value of culture and faith, all at once, from beginning to end. And the people, being the cancerous, rotten spiders that they are...they must also be eradicated so as to cleanse the world...

    I have not rejected faith and culture because of people. I rejected these “values” because of their own initial and deep-seeded filthiness. And then I rejected the people who contribute and sustain such a web of filth…

    ...go ahead an scan the entire thread if you wish, but enlighten me: where, exactly, is the ad hominem…

    If anything, I have done the exact inverse of ad hominem…
    Exactly. You know your fault and know that someone else, other than you, will come and solve them. Why? Because you are all divine angels, so helpless and pretty, merely sitting and waiting for the savior to come and lift you up where you belong...

    ...and this is not lazy?

    There be a "savior," such angels must not be lifted up, for their pain comes from themselves: they attract pain to themselves, and not just so, refuse to solve it themselves. Tell me: is your "Heaven" littered with such a sample of people? Who do nothing but merely wait and wait and wait and wait?

    What a heaven you have created for yourselves! What a shield! You have rewarded your own unwillingness and laziness! You have made righteousness adapt all the bad qualities in man...

    It seems that, as to embrace life, one must become an anti-human, first. All-too-many are these little humans, and they bring all-too-little, but siphon all-too-much...
  5. Shiro Time Devourer I have returned!

    Your error was painting the carriers (the faithful) above and beyond what they were carrying (faith) in weakness, when the faithful wouldn't be so without faith. The 'ad hominem' thing was said because you were making the faithful your subject, rather than faith itself (which is what this is supposedly about). If this is a misinterpretation, I apologize.
  6. DÛke Memento Mori

    ...

    No, it's not much of a misinterpertation. More like a miscommunication...

    Is faith bad? Yes. But can it do harm by itself? No.

    It requires a product, a tool, an insect, a worm -- something or someone to make it work. Those are the "faithful." They operate the "faithful machine." The machine, by itself, would be merely an ugly site. When it moves and utters, however, it becomes even uglier - like a nightmare coming to life, an undead finally reborn, like a breath given to the most dispicable, displeasurable, unnerving of all critters...

    A gun cannot be so harmful by itself. It requires a gun-master.

    A car cannot do harm. It requires an idiot.

    Technology cannot be useful. Until it is used.

    And likewise follows faith:

    It cannot be as bad as it is, until someone adapts it, and makes a mask to wear...

    ...

    If this is ad hominem, then yes - I will not dispute at all. Yet again, do I seem like the type of person that would abide by some arachic logic, some "thing" that was invented solely to restrain the spirit?

    ...
  7. Y The Alien Deity

    What a terrible thing to say.

    That's all I have to say about that, really.

    My own opinions on religion are fairly simple: there is no reason to believe that God, the "soul", or an afterlife exist. Therefore I do not believe in any of them. But I still respect your right to do so.
  8. DÛke Memento Mori

    There is much reason to believe why such things exist: to be simple, the fear of this life. For example, we have a war coming up...people in the Middle East, right now, they pray more than ever before instead of trying to do something about it. It is a kneeling. A weakness. Decadence. Profound laziness. A shallowness of the graves...and we look at the world...is it not all a big, shallow grave? Of course...it reflects the majority who inhabit it.

    And you tell me they have the right to worship and contaminate as they see fit? I am afraid they had over 2000 years to do such a thing without plaguing the world, with their quite reeking of a culture, values, faiths, and whatever little tick of a tag they wish to call "I." I believe that 2000 years of un-intellectual majority has been enough. It is time to rise up against such cowardly ways of life, such deceptively "civilized" living...O! Are not they all-too-primitive still...

    While you can belong with the herds and give them the right to vomit their so-called beliefs, I see that their time is up...

    Let us be honest: some people do not deserve life.

    The Bible? Holy Books? I would burn them without a single consideration, no hesitation or lagging, not even a blink...
  9. DÛke Memento Mori

    ...

    And I must admit, if I were a religious person, I would just rather sit down, watch, and do nothing. However, I think that this life is worthy of my attention, much more worthy than another life, why? Because I am living now - I feel, I think, I breathe. I will not dismiss all of this simply because somewhere, some time, somebody said that "God will deliver us." No. We must deliver ourselves.

    ...and therefore, unlike the religious fools, all those spiritual psychopaths and illusionists who repress their spirit of revenge, I will write more sincerely, I am more honest than them all, because the spirit of revenge is in us all, and I will follow it, and not let some wanna-be God, like Christ, say that I should hold my revenge because God will fight for me. No. I can fight for myself, even if merely with thoughts, still, you have to give me credit because I think as opposed to just sit...like the believers, who sit as they siphon from the world...

    ...and for them, because they are sitting, I find the believers to be sinners...to be against life...to be all-too-hopeful, therefore, lazy...and I think they are superfluous, needless to life, because they are the disease.

    I want them gone. And this is an understatement of the millennium.
  10. Shiro Time Devourer I have returned!

    NOTE: My comments in bold
    We've been trying to do that for millions of years, and our human potential has only sent us further south. Are this life and this world really that good in themselves?


    This is where DÛke glows eerily, grows a second voice, turns into some blue-skinned hyper-bishounen muse-prince, and sings all who stand in his way into a neverending slumber.

    "This is the end of the era of faith. Soon I and others like me will reign supreme above all, soon they will all get what they deserve, a fate even worse than their own stupidity, if such is possible. " (Elegant-sounding laughter)

    You know what unleashing this 'spirit of revenge' does? It's this kind of thinking that ruins great nations. As for being the most honest of them all, you clearly don't seem to be the least conceited one. Most believers don't merely sit. The charities and missionary work done in the name of Christ, and even other faiths, attests to that. Paul wasn't a sitter. Peter wasn't a sitter. None of the martyrs of the first century sat at all.



    Please note that the millennium is only four years old. In addition, many believers treat life even higher than non-believers. Yes, even anti-believers and those who take unbelief to a religion unto itself. I don't hate you for your speech. Why hate us for us?
  11. DÛke Memento Mori

    ...

    And for millions of years there was no threat against Earth as a whole. What? I suppose reliance and dependencies (such as religious dependency) is good? It has made us into robbers. We have robbed knowledge - we have stolen the glory of others, and we use such glories in inglorious ways. Behold the nuclear era. Behold...the political era, which is a lying era. Behold, the societies that are sick, overly infatuated with music, love, sex, drugs, gods, faiths, books...but where are their thoughts? One may look, but no matter how hard, one only sees thoughtlessness. And for this, you tell me that it is good? Good, of course, for the sitting. But for the standing, or better yet, for those who fly and can see from above...it looks not good at all. It is good for the lazy, those who rob. What have they given back? Few mishaps that they call "children." Woe to all children of such robbing parents!
    I see not a bad thing about this, only reality. But you see, your reality rests in the beyond, in a God, in a Christ, in a Cross, in Angels, in a Muse, in an unrealistic reality. What, is hope bad? Not at all! But to be that hopeful, we call this excess, therefore, sickness. You are showing early symptoms of sickness my dear, you are showing me the comfy chair that you would like to reside in, and let the dust bathe you, for the next few years of your life. That is what I see: I see you sitting with your Yes's and No's, proud...no, all-too-proud, of the person that you have became...but I remind you now, before the future dawns on you - did you become who you are, or do you adapt this, and that...and therefore, you have come to me now, proud with what you call a "thought" and a "self?" Is that who you are? What, you disagree with many? Show me, how are you willing to take your knowledge and inflict it, even if theoratically, upon those whom are misleading, who lie, who act, and who charm? Or am I going too far, assuming that you have a knowledge that stems from within you, not some trace from something and someone without you?
    Yeah? And nations are not ruined now? Look at them: struck with everlasting paranoia, extreme fears, all-too-defensive, worried, preoccupied with tools of death...do you call this life? Frankly, I call it it a state lower than death, a state of profound stench that the sensible nose cannot tolerate. Your holy water has been unable to clean much, if I must be truthful. What it has done is invert itself, place itself towards the good and the many, it became like a justification to do things, a ticket, almost like a right. My revenge is not the same revenge of nations. My revenge is against those who are sitting. Those who "protest" for the wrong reasons. Those who "help" the wrong people. Those who pity.

    I do not pity the fool or the ugly, not even the weak or the needy. I pity those whom are shackled by the filth that you proudly call a "world."

    I am plunged?

    And you, you are not?

    We have heard many times the songs of Christ.

    We have heard many times the songs of God.

    We have heard many times of songs and charms.

    But now...now, each of us must begin to sing his own song...

    ...and believe it or not, once we all become painfully honest, we all become exactly the same. We become not different than each other. "We" becomes "One." You see, somewhere in you, you recognize that honesty leads to oneness, but you are so unable to let go of the thing you call "I," the false self, the poor reflection that traces history with a strict eye...and really, is that not all you are? A great retrace of some long-past knowledge?

    When we learn to be 100%, no! Make that 1000%, sincere with ourselves, you would see, and feel, that we are all the same...

    ...and all other differentiations? Those are the games of the worldy and the culturaly, the ones who secretly do not want peace, the ones who hate the idea of sameness, therefore, you see them cower to small little groups, divisions and separations of religions, nations, people...

    ...they are the haters.

    But how many times have I said this? It is an old song now.

    We are only different in thoughts.

    People, however, make it their task to be different on physical terms. Denominations. Institues. Nations. Cultural values. Religions. Gods. And from those we gain our little "opinions," those things that you say: "everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion," how little you know, that an opinion is a sickness that stems from being diseased with valueless values.

    The universe looks at them and laugh.
  12. Y The Alien Deity

    Why can you not morally remove faith and religion from humanity?

    Because one of humanity's greatest rights is the right to do stupid ****.

    If a religious person wishes to observe their belief, and it does not adversely affect your life any moreso than any other person believing differently than you affects you, then, in my ever-so-humble opinion, you have no right to take their belief away.
  13. DÛke Memento Mori

    ...

    They have affected my life. In Iraq, they have affected me. Here, they are affecting me. As a whole, religion and faith, is affecting me.

    And how stupid can a person be to look at religion from just your perspective? We cannot look at it by itself, but as a part of an ongoing chain reaction. Religion is an effect, a reaction to "something," and religion also is the cause of other things...it is all one big chain of intermixed articles and circumstances. There is no such thing as "remove religion therefore we will be happy," becaue religion has inspired more beliefs, example, "morals and values," or as they call it, "culture." I hope you get the idea...

    Additionally, I want you to prove to me where do we, as humans, get the right to be stupid? We look at this "right" you speak of, and by all means, it has caused the world to become a shallow grave, a circus for the stupid...

    ...is that "the right?"

    No more it is a right. The will to stupidity - that is a thing you subscribe to and try to make everyone around you digest it: to sit down and be silent because there is changing the world. Then by all means, sit, but do not try to capture those who fly over you with your oh-so-humble of an opinion - chances are, those who fly are way farther than you and will be unable to hear you clearly, other than your all-too-common screeching...
  14. Shiro Time Devourer I have returned!

    Willful stupidity is, by definition, self defeating. Why anyone would make a conscious decision to place such a curse on him/herself boggles mine above nearly all minds.

    Obviously, it's not just something one can just 'snap out of'. If that were the case, nearly all of us would be comparative geniuses. On the contrary, it is a thing to be avoided, even overcome, at all reasonable costs.
  15. DÛke Memento Mori

    ...

    Here is something I must share, a reply to one of my emails from a dear teacher and friend, Brenda Bradly:
    Many values in life are so easy to digest. You see people licking off whatever leftover dust and webs of some ancient beliefs and traditions. We have to agree at once that accepting the "norm" is so much easier than refuting it, so much easier than rejecting it, ignoring it, dismissing it, and so much easier than, say, going beyond it. If we can agree to this, then we realize that most people know that it is easy, that in order to be alive, they would have to not just go over and beyond, but create; not just hold on to some "opinion," but stand up and say, "this is it," with all confidence. And how hard is that? So, instead, they choose to be living, but not alive.

    Their laziness caused them to believe that "they are entitled to their own opinion."

    That there is a "freedom of speech."

    What freedom of speech? The freedom to echo some opinions. And what are opinions? An echoing of the past or the present...an echoing! Not singing! By all means, are they speaking freely at all? One has to wonder! We need people that sing, not echo.

    And now we arrive to our time, still corrupted with much of the past - people hate leaving the past alone. They worship their history. Just look at some of the CPA members themselves, who hold on to some long gone "grudges" - that is weakness, the inability to let go of something that does nothing!

    And the same, we can say, applies to the entire world: it is weak and unable.

    If you want my respect, I want you go beyond yourself. Because your "self" is a product, an echo, dusted and buried. And it is only your opinion that enables you to say "I" and "self," and the proof is, people's opinions are easily shaped, easily manupilated...even those who think they are "self-actualized," they are probably weaker, because they, of all people, fool themselves into thinking that they are "independant." But the second you talk to them, you realize that they feel "hopeful," therefore, "helpless." "What can I do," they would ask. One need not answer them, because that is the question of the weak. What have you done, you should ask them, and I assure you, they will stare, blink, and utter their long-awaited "I have done nothing!"

    Am I asking everyone to become a mastermind? YES.

    And those who cannot, or believe that they cannot, they must be stepped over.
  16. Multani Treetrunk Guy

    While I sympathize with your thoughts, and your ideas have given me many long hours of philosphical reflection, I see some things in your posts that are rather...disturbing.

    You're almost setting yourself up to be a messiah, and we all know what happens to messiahs...

    You're setting yourself up to be a conduit of knowledge almost, and in a way, you're starting to encourage, what, by my definition, is a revolution.

    Choose your words carefully, and do not be so overwhelmed by your need to share YOUR truths, your wisdom, that you express things you do not wish to express, and unleash unpleasant consequences for your words.

    ...just a small note of caution from one someone who still chooses to play by society's rules...as flawed as they are. Remember, vision must be tamed with practicality, lest it consume the one who holds the vision.
  17. Shiro Time Devourer I have returned!

    Multani's right. We only need one Messiah, and his job was processed long ago. ^_^
  18. DÛke Memento Mori

    ...

    Shame on you people...

    Shame on you....shame on you...

    A messiah!

    The last thing we need on Earth is another "son of God." The last thing we need is a prophet. The last thing we need is a leader!

    We need people that sing, not echo.

    Weak is a person who sees me as anything "above" average. Too weak to be alive, I will admit. There is no "divine message" here, not even truth! What is here is me wanting everyone to become the child that they are, free of anything exterior...no culture, no values, no morals, no tradition, no sociability.

    You might think that religion is the thing I most detest, but it is culture.

    Good advice, but your word of caution is a year too late. Nevertheless, it is one of few true wisdoms. I like to be burnt, so I will let the flames consume as they desire...

    I am encouraging revolution, and all that you have heard me say you will see again in my books...in a more consuming fashion...

    My words are carefully chosen. But I guess there is no being too careful. But careful from what? For me to be careful, it suggests that I have something to fear...but I don't. I am willing to face the most punishing death right now. With all honestly, I am not afraid at all. The world is a numbing place, and when one cries too much, when he is pained too much, he becomes numbed to the tears and the pain - one becomes indifferent to those who suffer, indifferent to death. I am too numb, now, to feel a little culturly threat like death or imprisonment...the fear seems to have died somewhere along the way...
  19. Multani Treetrunk Guy

    Shiro :

    You mis-interpreted my words to an extent. I am not encouraging the concept of Jesus Christ in any way. I am not acknowledging Christianity in anyway. I'm not even attempting to infer or reference it in anyway. Jesus was not the only messiah; there were others before him, and there have been and will be many after him. I'm simply pointing that in a way, DUke is very much acting like a messiah does...someone with a radical new message. And for your information, I don't think we need ANY messiah whatsoever. And again, we all know what happens to people who are consumed by their own vision...


    DUke:

    So you're really willing to go that far out? Perhaps my words of caution were wasted. But it seems, that you have already decided to become a martyr to your beliefs. Personally, I think such a decision is foolish, but it is your choice to make and I have nothing more to say. All I know is that, if you do die or are imprisoned for your ideas, it will be a pointless torture and you will have gained nothing...indeed your ideas may die with you. I am not so optimistic to think that anything good would come out of your death or imprisonment, in respect toward your ideas.


    Also, allow me to explain what I said when you were setting yourself up to be a leader...a messiah.

    In my definition, a messiah is someone who brings a radical new message, usually, with a spiritual or religious undertone, or at least, the way he's presenting it. In a way, people like Lenin, were messiahs, according to my definition of it. You are bringing a radical message, and what's more you are the only conduit of that message. You may not like it, but you are setting yourself to be a leader of some sorts...it's the price you pay for originating an idea few have developed to the degree that you're doing.

    Now, as for a leader, a leader does not start out as someone 'above' average per se. You see, leaders are 'different' from the average...neither above the average, nor below it. They are simply different. They run a different direction from the normal people. You are certainly different from these views which you've presented. Again, whether you like it or not, you are becoming a leader in some respects, if only the fact that you openly admit to be starting a revolution.


    You detest morals. You detest cultures. DUke, in short I believe you detest humanity in its present form. Again, while I agree with some of your views, I feel as if you're taking a horribly radical approach to all this. DUke, the age of revolution is over. Nowadays, change is gradual. Leaders and originators of philosophy must be patient to see their efforts reach fruitation. You can't simply wipe the slate clean in one fell swoop. Morals...culture...religion...all are natural byproducts of the human race. You can't simply tear them away. To do so would create an artificial aspect of humanity, and would have negative impacts.

    Compare the development of humanity to a normal child.
    The child grows up believing in Santa Clause. You suddenly come by and tell the child Santa does not exist, at least not in the way the child thinks of it. Normally, the child would call you a mean man, and not listen to you. If you took it a step further and literally forced the fact that Santa Clause does not exist on the child, it very well might be a traumatic moment for the child, and might haunt the person later in life, or at least have some sort of negative aspect.

    What you want is for all of humanity to be children again. However, on the one hand, you can not simply erase what mankind has developed. You can't just force them to start from scratch. On the other hand, assuming you do managed to wipe the slate clean. What's to prevent it all from developing again? You're fighting against the natural course of human development.

    You might be able somehow to change the course of the river, but eventually, even if it takes a thousand years, nature will change the river course back to or close to its original course, because artificially-imposed changes never last forever. They can not be maintained indefinitely. You MIGHT and I highly doubt it, succeed in what you're trying to accomplish, but again, what's holding us back from going back to our old habits?




    Again, I'll bring up another Dune reference...
    Leto's Golden Path.
    For those of you people that have read the book, you know what it is. For those of you that haven't...well, read the Dune series. What DUke's trying to accomplish is much like this Golden Path...

    DUke: Feel free to discuss this over AIM. I've Spring Break over here, and I've got some free time. If you want to talk, the door's always open.
  20. Shiro Time Devourer I have returned!

    Multani: I was trying to be funny, playing on DUke's setting himself up to be a messiah.

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