I'm going to Hell for this...

[Darkstar]

Oh ****.... that was perhaps the funniest thing ive ever read! Its so true! I think Ill go out and try it and see if it really works (the joke that is).

So mazzak... curious... how would the joke affect you? I guess since you are a deity you could perhaps allow the shmo to tell the joke?

Oh btw... my religion would except the joke to a certain extent... heres how it would go...

Will's Religion

Divinity: My dog has no nose.

Will: How does the **** does the lil mofo smell then? I mean he cant possibly detect scent with a mo****in nose can he? You should really get that **** checked out... I mean you cant smell with out a ****in nose ya know. Hey did you go to the legions prelease? It was the shizzle! I got some goblins and some... slivers and some... hey I know... wanna go get some grub... Im hungrier than a mofo out here man. Whats ur name again? Oh ya... thats right. Hell man I cant remember anything. Must be all that boozing and sex and not giving a **** about anything. Ya know I gotta follow that stuff for my religion calls for it. So whats your religious status? Um...

Divinity: Um... wtf did u just say?

 

[Mazzak]

The joke affects me thus:

Divinity: My dog has no nose.

Me: Then how does he go about smelling?

Divinity: Awful...ly. There, I made it an adverb just to smite you.. get it, spite, smite, cause we're deities.. hah!

Me: Heh. I stop your one pun, you drop an even worse one... man, you sure are punny!

Divinity: just to keep the degeneration of pun quality going down, I declare that you shall be pun-ished!

Me: Actually, I think "punny" is just a little lower than "pun-ish".

Divinity: Now that you think of it, that's true... in fact, you can't really drop below "punny", can you? Well, I'm off to ignore all my worshippers, what are you doing today?

Me: I think I'll create me another one of those ebony-hulled airships to sail around one of my planets in.

Divinity: Another one, eh?

Me: Yep, this time with even more totally vestigial sails!

Divinity: Sweet. Pity I have so much ignoring to do. You know how they get when I try to tell them Jokes...

 

[Apollo]

Mazzak: Stop it, or I'll punch you.

 

[DÛke]

...

I look at the world, society, culture, politics, their values, their friends and enemies, their unbecoming...

Where is the joke?

I suppose pain is a joke - an illusion? No wonder, then, why we surround ourselves with friends, why we dress ourselves in values...all to deny pain, something that is called a "joke," an illusion. It contradicts itself, does it not? It seems to me that even making a joke out of it is a negation - the same exact escape that leads to other paths of unbecoming...

"Maybe you've never cried because you were in pain for someone other than yourself..."

 

[Mazzak]

DUke misses the laugh.

Man, don't you see that all the problems in the world stem from people taking things way too seriously? Especially people taking their religions too seriously.
Seriousness causes wars. Seriousness breeds terrorism. Seriousness begets poverty and disgusting wealth.
The only thing seriousness is good for is as a motivation for finding a solution to a natural problem, such as a plague; and most scientists still have a sense of humor.


In fact, the only thing that needs to be taken seriously is the huge number of folk who DO take things seriously on a regular basis.

As for the "unbecoming" that you speak of- if you look back in history people took things even more seriously than we do now. They used to burn people for speaking such "blasphemy" as I do.
I think, that when the current ruling generation of nationalistic pigs are all out of power, we'll see an increase in lack of bullshyte.
Thus actually improving the quality of the species. Humanity may be a bunch of jackasses, but if you look to the past we were even more so.

And yes, pain is a joke. we all suffer it, and yes I have cried for the pain of others... but that doesn't keep it from being a joke, albeit a pretty poorly constructed one.
Existence is entertainment, with a healthy balance of comedy and tragedy, but only whackos take it seriously...

 

[DÛke]

...

DÛke does not miss the laugh - it is just that when he laughs, at all of you maybe, he is condemned severely.

You treat religion as if it were even half the problem in the world. It is nothing but a shard of it.

Let's talk not seriously for a second.

Have you left your country, have you adapted to a new, completely different culture? Did you have to learn, by force, a new language? Or maybe you have lost over 10 relatives because of this cute joke? No, wait, your parents were divorced 3 times? Or am I missing the fact that you've actually experienced war?

Let's take some things as a joke now...so many of them:

The people who die everyday, beyond their control? Or the people who will die beyond their control?

Hmm...surely I am missing something.

O Heavens - I believe the joke is right here:

Me, waking up everyday, instead of thinking, researching, writing, I should wake up, sniff the beautiful day, play my X-Box, hang with friends, go to school, marry, find a job, and live in joy and happiness. Indeed, why bother try to even think - that's the joke. Why waste my life trying to find knowledge that seemingly has no limits? Why follow the infinite?

You're right. It is a joke.

What's the problem, then? Many people around the globe do nothing but joke - you know - like I can: play their games, $#@^ their $#^$ers, marry, make some money, go on vacations, and simply live happily. Many people know the joke - many people live it as well.

If that's the joke, then, it just seems like it lacks...humor, not because it is not funny - no - but because many, many, many people have uttered it, and many live it.

So the majority call themselves Christians? They do play the joke though: play their games, live their lives, and forget everything else. So what if they are called Muslims or Americans or whatever? They're all playing the same joke - they all simply live their lives, taking nothing seriously.

So...ok...if the majority are the jokers, I suppose it is the few people, like me, who create the problem? But I think, at that point, you are placing too much credit for the few like me, who "can't see the joke." You're telling me that this minority has such power, such sheer influence!

I think the joke is on you...

I think what you mean to say is that not many people take things seriously enough to try to solve the problems...not many people care.

As for the unbecoming - I think that back in history, humanity did not posses the ability to destroy itself. If you want me to judge evolution based on the ability to destroy most globally and most efficiently, then yes, we are indeed evolved. But if we are to look at man's mind...it seems that when he used to kill, he had but one thing in mind: the will to survive. That reason does not justify the killing any longer - now we kill because we are "right," because they are "wrong," because we want domination and control. When, first, we were driven by the natural urge to live, now we are driven by secondary urges, simply to satisfy not the will to survive, but the will to be. So they detested witches back then? Now they detest each other more than anything else...

 

[DÛke]

...

Chaos Turtle - I sent you the email.

 

[Mazzak]

You think the majority DON'T take things seriously? Tell anyone that their entire family is comprised of a bulging, stinking mass of vomit-colored maggots slowly being ejected from the rotten testicle of an elephant, and yes, that that mass includes them.
They will likely take it as an insult, rather than laugh at the absolutely silly string of words that it is.
Throw in some totally superfluous profanity, and they will 99 times out of 100 get pissed off at you.


And the things that have been thrown at you all your life, war, immigration, divorce and whatnot; these things are the tragic element of life! But don't you notice that it's all for your entertainment? Read a decent book or watch a decent movie and you'll see... they were made for entertainment and YET... they will often make you cry; they will often break your heart but in the end it was not real- just like life.

This is life: an immersive joke.
Not anything that is in truth particularly serious.

 

[Chaos Turtle]

1 - If it was the Undeniable Truth, I would have to accept it, wouldn't I? Since it would be Undeniable, you see.

2 - Life isn't the joke. Reality is.

3 - Not all jokes are funny.

4 - You should only take life as seriously as you take yourself. I don't take it seriously at all.

5 - Thinking of life as entertaining does not necessarily mean one does not take any of it seriously.*

6 - I got the email and will get back to you.

*(For example, I choose not to take everyday life too seriously. In fact, I find most people create their own personal problems, usually because they are angry most of the time. Angry at the world and all the mean people in it.

I think it's funny to listen to people whine and whine about their misfortunes. People walk around fuming because they had to wait 5 minutes at the drive-thru, or the store wouldn't take their check, or they can't pay the cable bill. These people are out of their heads with worry and contempt and misery and can't wait to spread some of it around.

It's like living in a big room with a hundred televisions, all showing a different soap opera.

Now, do you take soap opera seriously? How about Jerry Springer? Reality TV? If not, why take the television news seriously? Why take anything seriously at all?

I don't take things like this all that seriously. Does that mean I don't care? Not at all. My best friend has all sorts of problems, every one of which he's brought on himself. I love him dearly, but I can't help but find it funny that he keeps making the same mistakes ovr and over, usually using "personal pride" as the excuse.

Heck, I have quite a few problems myself, all a result of some action or reaction I've taken. Do I take my problems seriously? Some of them. Are they funny? Yeah. Funny in the *shakes head sadly* kind of way at times, but funny nonetheless.

Many people who barely know me think I'm a horrible person -- some of the things i say, I guess. That's all right with me. I probably am a horrible person. But most people are and just don't want to face it.

I look at it like this. Life is short. Really, even guaged against the history of civilzation, my life is just an wink, a twitch of an eyelash in the history of life on Earth. What am I compared to all that has taken plac since the little singularity went "pop" way back at the beginning of time? What will I matter when it all collapses on itself again? Just what, exactly, am I supposed to give a damn about?

At the end of it all, what do you get to take with you? Nothing. If you're lucky you'll get to remember your life's experience. Memories of your relationships with other people. I don't want those memories to be of misery and discontent.

Who would?)

 

[DÛke]

...

Mazzak - not to underestimate your valueable expereinces, but it seems to me that you speak as if you did, in fact, experience some of the things I described. Those things, I tell you, are only a shard of what is out there. I would like you to experience some of them, and come speak of them as a joke.

Chaos Turtle:

People walk around fuming because they had to wait 5 minutes at the drive-thru, or the store wouldn't take their check, or they can't pay the cable bill. These people are out of their heads with worry and contempt and misery and can't wait to spread some of it around.

Right. These people are, what I call, trapped in circular knowledge. They understand nothing - their ability to whine about the valueless is incredible. That's not who I am.

So you guys suggest that life is a joke, to an extent. I can agree, to an extent, that we should all be able to look back and laugh at some of the "tragic" events that have raped our world. Ok.

Is that it? To live, look back, laugh, and die?

Yes, indeed, what exactly should you care about? Most people choose to care about their own experiences, their own lives, their own well-being, their own peace of mind. Am I wrong? Most people tend to forget, that sometimes, it's not all a joke, that there is something there; I'm not talking about the reason behind humanity, but the reason why people are the way they are, why humanity is unbecoming.

If you expect to live your lives within the limits of your own experiences, than what must be said about the person who lives within the experience, but also without and beyond it? Surely he or she would have experienced more of life? And if so...is it better to experience more or less of life - since it is the beautiful joke that you all make it out to be - why not fully indulge – experience everyone’s pain, everyone rage, everyone’s sorrow…all to realize the joke some more!

In any event...life should be experienced. If a "joke" is all it is, than the joke should be made free for us to experience. Sadly, as you can see, I cannot realize the joke - I am blinded, corrupted, thwarted by people who have concealed the joke. I have the right to at least experience some rage, some sadness, so as to "feel" the joke, no?

It seems, at this point, that all you guys are doing is replacing the word "serious" with "joke." Think about it: does it matter? Whatever life is, it has been hindered. The hindrance must be, therefore, removed. Do you see? We are back around the circle. Call it serious, call it a joke - it has been corrupted. Or is one supposed to ignore the blockade and simply live his own life, not minding the experience of others? But we already agreed that to go beyond the experience is to be more alive! What a cage you have made for yourselves, simply by playing a game of words!

 

[EricBess]

Originally posted by DÛke
Eric, you say many refreshing things to hear - many things that are pleasant to the ear...but knowing your life style, I sense a contradiction between what you say and what you live, and therefore, I am lead to the realm of confusion once more

I don't see any contradiction Duke. I have stated previously that there are certain things that I disagree with about what you have said. I certainly understand where you are coming from and I agree with most of it. However, when you say that religion is an illusion, I agree with you only to a certain point. There is an eternal truth. Most religion is an attempt to capture something greater. Certainly, many people follow religion because they need something to cling to. I don't believe that one should follow a religion blindly.

However, just because you constantly question something doesn't mean that you don't agree with it. If you question things, then you have to leave room for what you are questioning to be wrong. But you also have to leave room for them to be right. Personally, I have seen enough evidence to suggest that there is a God that I can't deny that there is, for that would be a lie. The questions arise in how and why we choose to follow (or to not follow) a given religious practice or believe.

I would further submit that just because something is an illusion the way one person sees it, doesn't mean that it isn't true at it's core.

Does it make me a bad Latter Day Saint because I question things? I don't think so. I think it makes me a better one because I don't blindly follow. Instead, I begin to understand why certain things are the way they are.

And Sven, from what I've seen, Duke hasn't once tried to tear down anything that anyone believes. All he's done is try to get people to analyze themselves and to honestly evaluate why they do and believe the things they do. ie. if we all have brains, why do we spend so much effort trying not to use them?

 

[DÛke]

...

Eric, I believe that you are at least willing to listen to the contradictions I perceive?

You are a Christian, to my knowledge. What is the ultimate point of being a Christian? Surely it is to understand and find God. In fact, the ultimate goal of all monotheistic religions is to understand and by thus, find God.

God, whether we feel him or not, is supposed to be an objective matter. We cannot even begin to suggest that God is subjective - if we do, at that point, we would have made him simply a whim, an opinion, something that is not necessary. So God is necessarily objective. If you disagree...please enlighten me.

At this point, I suppose I can ask this - why are some of us left wanting of this said-to-be objective of all matters in our lives? At moments of sorrow and despair, I honestly have found myself in desperate needs of someone of such power - a God - but how pitiful of me, how selfish, to desire something solely to comfort me when I'm trapped in such moments. Or should I desire God at those very moments - but how faithful would I be? Or how should I go about desiring God? Tell me.

Furthermore...

Are you willing to become a Muslim? Probably not. A Jew? I don't think so. Any other religion, would it appeal to you at this point, enough to be adapted? I doubt it.

You are telling me that you are faithful at all, to the point where you have found God. The perfect Muslim, having practiced the perfect Islam, would find God. Or I suppose a Muslim is delusional, that his faith lacks? What of the Jews’? I suppose Christianity is the beginning and the end, the only gate to God? If so, I would like the reasons for such reasoning. I would like to see the different ultimate goal that Christianity aspires to achieve. Such a thing is lacking, hence, all listed religions aspire to reach the same limit. We are left to give credibility to all such religions. At this point, what we would see is this: the perfect Christian, should he have achieved the ultimate goal of being faithful – he would have understood and by thus found God. Since we agreed that other religions aspire for the same ends, we can also assert that the perfect Muslim would have achieved the goal by being faithful, that is, he understood and by thus found the end, whom is God. The exact same applies to the Jew.

And thus we arrive at this: when one finds God, he is undoubtedly faithful. Seeing how, if the person posses the truest form of faith, he would become like all other truly faithful persons - how might you describe yourself as having faith at all, Eric, if you are still a Christian? It seems that finding true faith would lead you to go above and beyond the name of religion, into simply faith itself. Yet, you are still a Christian. The Muslim is still a Muslim. The Jew, a Jew. Each claims, as you have, to have found God – that is, reached the ultimate aspiration, yet each contradicts this by simply remaining a Christian, a Muslim, a Jew – to remain is to be incomplete, and to be incomplete is to be not perfectly faithful, and to be not perfectly faithful is to have not achieved the ultimate goal of understanding and finding God. But you claim to have achieved this. Do you see the contradiction?

How is it that one is faithful, yet still contains qualities of the unfaithful? Or I suppose one can be not faithful enough - and what would that look like? It would become like the beliefs we observe today - merely illusionary, strongly lacking, naturally deceiving, and lying to us, charming us into believing that they are faithful at all. Or what is, exactly, imperfect faith, having seen what the perfect faith looks like?

I eargerly await your reply, Eric.

 

[Shiro, Time Devourer]

I'll chip in as well.

The presence of deceit under Christianity's guise doesn't sour it as a whole. Also, it is less a religion than a relationship with Christ and a greater understanding of His teachings. In fact, were Jesus alive today, he would be more than annoyed at the charismatic showmanship, mysticism and supernatural melodrama that passes for His faith today (see Benny Hinn, Marilyn Hickey, Ron Parsley etc.) Also, why do we simply remain Christians? Because of who Christ was and what He did. No other religious leader has ever compared. As for his existence, it's been proven, by both his allies and his enemies of the time. Also, an attempt to accept all faiths as they are for the sake of completeness would lead to some glaring contradictions in doctrine (see the concepts of morality/ resurrection/reincarnation, the afterlife) that could not be ignored by anyone who seriously examined them.

 

[Spiderman]

Also, why do we simply remain Christians? Because of who Christ was and what He did. No other religious leader has ever compared

If you're talking about the longevity of Christianity, keep in mind that the Egyptians followed theirs for 5000 years, more than twice the life span of Christianity. I don't believe there was a single "leader" though.

Although if Buddhism is considered a religion, it's been going a while...

 

[Shiro, Time Devourer]

I'm not talking about longevity. I'm talking about relevance and the truths He spoke.

 

[Spiderman]

So is Buddhism a religion? 'Cause if it is, I would say he compares.

 

[train]

It is a recognized religion...

 

[DÛke]

...

Shiro, you say nothing new. What's the point of even knowing Christ...if your ultimate goal is not what I had mentioned?

And at that point, the contradiction I recite still presents itself as something that you must "fix," that is, if you want me to have no doubt about you being a truly faithful.

Shiro:

Also, an attempt to accept all faiths as they are for the sake of completeness would lead to some glaring contradictions in doctrine.

But also notice, that when you are trying to reach the same exact goal, it becomes unimportant. We all go to different schools, yet we all immerge with the same absolute mathematical knowledge. You do not question me how I came about learning addition and multiplication, you just observe that I do, indeed, know. When I work out, my goal is to have a better body. The end result, at the end, is all that matters - people go to different gyms to work out, all in hope of having better bodies. We might have different methods, but we have the same exact goals. If I were to murder 3000+ innocent people, you would observe this as a crime, that my reasons can never justify the cause - you judge me based upon the final observation, the end result. So tell me now of religion, as it is math, as it is working out, as it is a crime, what is observed is the final result: understanding and finding God. To say that I have understood and found God, that I am faithful at all, and that I am a Christian, for example, is to be saying something like this: I know that 1+1=2, I know that 2x2=4, and I know that any math student would know this, but I believe my answer is more correct, that is, my 2 is more even than any other 2 and my 4 is greater than any other 4. How noisy would that appear?

Or I suppose that when you follow your Christ, you're not in search of the final end, the ultimate goal? Yet you still call yourself faithful? There's a new contradiction.

 

[EricBess]

Originally posted by DÛke

Eric, I believe that you are at least willing to listen to the contradictions I perceive?

Yes, I will listen and repect your views. I think you are quite insightful and I enjoy such discussions.

You are a Christian, to my knowledge. What is the ultimate point of being a Christian? Surely it is to understand and find God. In fact, the ultimate goal of all monotheistic religions is to understand and by thus, find God.

The ultimate goal is to become like God. This is not possible in this lifetime, but it is what is strived for. It is therefore necessary to understand God to the level that we are able. And yes, I am Christian, though a lot of people think Christian is synonomous with Caltholic and splinter religions, which the Mormon church is not.

God, whether we feel him or not, is supposed to be an objective matter. We cannot even begin to suggest that God is subjective - if we do, at that point, we would have made him simply a whim, an opinion, something that is not necessary. So God is necessarily objective. If you disagree...please enlighten me.

Agreed. God does not change from person to person based on their beliefs.

At this point, I suppose I can ask this - why are some of us left wanting of this said-to-be objective of all matters in our lives? At moments of sorrow and despair, I honestly have found myself in desperate needs of someone of such power - a God - but how pitiful of me, how selfish, to desire something solely to comfort me when I'm trapped in such moments. Or should I desire God at those very moments - but how faithful would I be? Or how should I go about desiring God? Tell me.

When Christ was in his deepest need, hanging on the cross, at one point he asked, "My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" My understanding of this is that, for that moment, Christ was left alone by his father, who momentarily withdrew his presence. Why would a loving father do that? I believe it was necessary because Christ needed to experience everything that man might go through. Up to that point, that was the one thing he had never truely experienced.

We go through trial because often, it is necessary to become strong by overcoming. God will never truely abandon us, even when we displease him with some of the things we do. There is no shame in asking for his help when you need it the most. It feels hypocritical to only ask in those moments, but any parent who loves their children understands to some degree that a loving father will not ignore a child just because they haven't writen for a long time.

Are you willing to become a Muslim? Probably not. A Jew? I don't think so. Any other religion, would it appeal to you at this point, enough to be adapted? I doubt it.

I'm willing to try to understand what they believe. I know a good deal about a number of religions. I think much of what is taught is very good principles and I applaud them for that. To my knowledge, the majority of religions profess that communication between God and man has ceased and we are forced to go by the Bible alone to learn God's will. The world changes over time and continuing revelation (both personal and through prophets) is an important part of God's work. Religions that profess to not have continuing revelation by necessity have decisions made by individuals and individuals are falible.

As such, much good comes from nearly any religion that tries to do good. One can still find God by trying to follow their precepts, but could it be an individual accomplishment rather than something directly caused by that religion? I have spoken to a number of individuals that are very good Catholics (for example) and profess to have found God through their religion, but there are basic tenants of their religion that they don't agree with. Does this mean that they are incorrect? Or perhaps they have a personal understanding that the church as an organization lacks?

I think the best that an idividual can do is to be true to what they truely feel is the best way to live their live. I agree with you that we should always question ourselves. Honest self evaluation is really hard to do. It requires a lot of practice. I admire you and I think that perhaps you are able to be very introspective. From my experience, once you realize that there must be a God, the only way to be truely introspective is to seek his help. This can be done personally without organized religion.

And I think for me, that's what it comes down to. Christ taught baptism, which implies an organization. But at the core, it is an individual relationship with God that is the key.

 

[Spiderman]

When Christ was in his deepest need, hanging on the cross, at one point he asked, "My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" My understanding of this is that, for that moment, Christ was left alone by his father, who momentarily withdrew his presence. Why would a loving father do that? I believe it was necessary because Christ needed to experience everything that man might go through. Up to that point, that was the one thing he had never truely experienced.

My understanding of Christ's statement at this point was that he himself felt that God, his father, had abandoned him, while in fact He had not.