I'm going to Hell for this...

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Ferret, Dec 5, 2002.

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  1. Shiro Time Devourer I have returned!

    Way to go, Eric! You said it better than I could.

    :)
  2. DÛke Memento Mori

    ...
    I hope the "majority of religions" include Christianity. Having a Bible at all suggests that communication is seized, and now the bridge between God and self needs to be accommodated by the fallible, unemotional written word of some Holy Books. Indeed, all religions suggest that communication has seized, and by thus, they all offer a gate, a bridge, a hope of reconnection.
    And I suppose you are referring to the return of Christ? I suppose the decision to continue the revelations and prophets comes from someone other than individuals? How do you come to differentiate between who makes the decisions: which is the individual decision here - to continue or to discontinue?

    In Christianity, the centerpiece of matchlessness, as you suggest, is the introduction of everlasting hope, of some thing returning, anything, as long as it returns. If I combine this with you telling me that I can be selfish as to find God, it seems to me that Christianity is nothing more than a medicine, a pill, a drug to satisfy the filthy human mind - the selfish thus conceded, the helpless thus weak, the hopeful thus lazy. I am to shut my eyes, to ignore my ears, to forbid my mind from thinking - I am to grasp a Christian belief, rely on an everlasting hope, all the while remain as selfish as I may be, since such a faith itself finds it unimportant to be selfless - and by thus - I am free to roam the world and commit what Christianity itself declares as "sins." What a negation it is, to imply of an "unconditionally loving Father," yet still conjure the morals, the "right" and "wrong," the "good" and "evil." Why, I ask, would I abide at all, if rewards were all my gains!

    And to underline the tragedy of it all...
    To readily dismiss the self, to rely, to roam freely from that moment of contentment - what an irresistible promise! To forget today, and tomorrow, to forget life, to be enslaved, to think not at all, and introspect not of the self.
    Yet you still willingly name yourself a Christian. The individual experience you speak of seems to be lacking at this moment - the student is still in school, learning. He is still to grasp the idea of faith, and by thus, he cannot have possibly found God. He is still tagging religion along with him. He has not been above and beyond. Yet. Yes, yet, he suggests that he is faithful, that he found God. And to inquire of his methods to finding God, he speaks of utter helplessness, of the monumental moment of selfishness, as the grand gate to God - the same God who teaches selflessness.

    I would be deceiving not just the world, but myself as well, if I do not admit that all – all songs by far, all resonate unmusically.
  3. EricBess Active Member

    Duke - Not everything is absolutes. You speak of "finding God" as if it is an end and not a progression. I am certainly still learning, as you suggest.

    And it is not selfish to seek God. Quite the contrary. If we truely seek God, it is through our works towards others that we demonstrate this. However, I suppose it is possible to seek God because one wants the rewards. In which case, a seemingly selfless act is, as you say, truely selfish in nature, in which case, the reward has been received.

    To truely seek God is to always be willing to put his will above ours. To put the needs of others around us often above our own. How is that selfish unless we do is souly because we want the rewards.

    Of course, this is, in part, the duality that you speak of. Why seek God if not to gain the reward. In which case, it is a selfish act. The true follower does good because he wants to. The fact that rewards will follow is never the issue.

    As far as dismissing the self, I'm not suggesting that. If I have a tough decision to make that affects my family, I don't make that decision alone. I consult with my wife and my children to find out how they feel. Often, however, the final decision is one that I must make on my own. Would you suggest that the very fact that I consult with my family is dismissing self or relying on others?

    But, as I have said before, this is perhaps where the line is drawn. Where we have no choice but to agree to disagree.

    Spiderman - I didn't mean to suggest that the Father had abandoned Christ, just that he withdrew his presence. Christ needed to feel like he was alone. As a father, I have occasionally observed how my children play and interact without them knowing I was there. I agree with your assessment.

    Shiro - Thank you.
  4. DÛke Memento Mori

    O but Eric! - you represent the exact problem that I percieve, the duality between word and thought! Do you seriously not see, how at times, you play one field, and at others, you play another? Similar to a coin flip, it seems, or a random dice game, a gamble - what you say, if you cannot percieve it, seems to be beyond your control...

    Am I the only one who sees the duality here:
    And...
    And I suppose my weeping, my whimpering, wailing and crying and falling and failing...I suppose when I seek God, I am not seeking it for the sake of my calm, my serenity, to avoid the impending madness! I cannot be that selfish, and even be insincere to not admit that those moments are the only moments where I desire God.

    The origin of beliefs is misery and helplessness.
    You don't suggest it, Eric, you present it with all your confidence. What would I be doing, in my moments of need, when I am cowering to God? I am escaping myself, sniffing, if only falsely, the haze of ecstasy, the pure aroma of a life that I wish I had, a hope not of another life, but a hope of hope! I suppose I am not dismissing myself if for only hopefulness...

    What a tragedy it is...

    And how saddening, to me, that hope is treasured - enough to justify answers and dismiss the questions.

    O how my ear bleeds, how uncontrollable the pain! – how many feelings invade me, how hard it becomes to differentiate between disgust and rage when I hear the uttering of words! I must fool myself, pretend, try to compromise – “I am the fool,” “I am the fool,” “I am the fool!” How ready I feel at times, to give myself away, deceptively, for just a fleeting moment, to feel a worthless minute of serenity, to get along with a humanity that cannot get along with itself, a species that utters contradictions so easily, constantly, so believingly – to what limits must one betray himself so as to remain even slightly, even falsely calm! To what limits indeed - to the limits of hope, God, and religion...simply to silence the breathing of thought, the invasion of ideas, the impending realization…

    ...all to feel content. How unbecoming.

    Yes, Eric, we should "agree to disagree" at this moment. My questions might change, indeed, and we might realize a thought bigger than ourselves, but why? Let the content be content, the mad be mad...:) Let us stop our knocking on forbidden doors, for they are wide shut, never to open again...
  5. EricBess Active Member

    I do see that if you take words out of context, you can alter the meaning behind them :D I also see that you like to deal in absolutes.

    Regardless, if you seek answers, Duke, I hope that you find them. I have certainly enjoyed the conversation and have learned much. A sincere thanks.
  6. DÛke Memento Mori

    ...

    I'm sorry Eric, but that 3rd quoting of my last post did take your words out of context! I fixed it. It does not make a difference at all, however. :)

    Just one thing: I think it is you, who believes in an absolute end, a God, a faith, who deals with absolutes, not me - the one that has no end. I hope you don't expect me to think of God as not an absolute - I hope you don't suggest that God can be overcome. If you don't, then by all means Eric, it seems that you're the one dealing with absolutes, but trying hard to disarm them as, what? - generals?

    Likewise.
  7. Almindhra Magic's Bitch

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  8. Shiro Time Devourer I have returned!

    Context is an essential part of understanding, because if the context is lost, then we get gross departures from the truth and the orignal meaning of things. This is why we have such divisions and false doctrine within the body of Christ. This is also why authors like JRR Tolkien and film directors like George Lucas are taken the wrong way, because some people can't be brought to look at the context of their work. In spiritual matters this is extremely dangerous, as it leads to division and bickering, 'sowing discord among brothers', if you will.
  9. Svenmonkey Pants Chancellor

    Blah blah blah blah blah? Blah blah blah blah!
  10. DÛke Memento Mori

    ...

    Spirituality, of itself, is one of the most dangerous concepts that we have yet to overcome. I detest it more than religion. Religion only goes deeper into the problem, where as spirituality is the origin of that problem. Such a shame...

    Before we overcome all of it, we must overcome hope, and before we overcome hope, we must overcome ourselves.
  11. train The Wildcard!!!...

    That's my Mindy!...:D
  12. EricBess Active Member

    Ironically, Mindy's comments are probably just as insightful and anyone elses in this thread :D
  13. Apollo Bird Boy

    Lol, I love you Doe. ;)
  14. Shiro Time Devourer I have returned!

    http://www.angelfire.com/pa/cloewen/atheist.html

    Any of you who are atheists should read this so you can find out what type of atheist you identify with. It may make you think about your position, or even make you rethink it, depending on what type you are. I happen to share C. Loewen's viewpoint on this one.
  15. Jigglypuff Big Cute Pink Thing

    I read it. I am an emotional atheist. I admit it. It probably stems from the fact that religious groups have been preaching to me since junior high school and I have even been threatened twice with physical violence. The teachers wouldn't do anything about it. The administration wouldn't do anything about it. So I decided to wash my hands of all of this religious stuff. You can think whatever you want of me; I can't be bothered to care. I don't want religion and if you want to ignore me because of it, that's fine by me.

    (- Steve -)
  16. Svenmonkey Pants Chancellor

    I'm a hybrid "grandstander" and "true intellectual atheist." I'm only a grandstander when my parents bring up the subject, though, since they're the ones trying to force it down my throat. I'm usually a "true intellectual atheist," though, since I just sit around and am usually not religiously offensive and I have reasonable arguments against theism. I'll tell you, though, nobody tries to "convert" me or bully me because I don't believe something without getting shouted at or whacked with something. Too bad nobody has ever done such things... :p
  17. DÛke Memento Mori

    ...

    I visited that link. I cannot believe that that level of stupidity, of blindness still exists today. And to know that it has a following parade chasing its tail, a frail specimens of the lifeless and the filthy, the cowards and the helpless...what can I do but laugh in silence!
  18. DÛke Memento Mori

    ...

    And Eric, I hope you don't mind me using some of the things you said as basis for fables in my book?

    The same goes for Ferret and Chaos Turtle...

    (Wanting to know what Istanbul and Gizmo might have to say about the subject...)
  19. Svenmonkey Pants Chancellor

    I agree that that spot is rather stupid, though my reasons are probably different from DÛke's. It assumes that theism is the default and that atheists are dumb kids, simply because they reject the religious views of his specific version of Christianity. And he wants you to challenge his faith with your views, just so he can throw back something about Jesus that he, in reality, probably wouldn't want people thinking.

    Just for the records, and since almost all of the religious folk here are arguing as Christians, my opinions on Jesus are as follows. He was a good guy, and gained a following for being so, and he challenged the ideas of oppressors with logic. His views that the Jews were hypocritical in their faith made them hate him, and got him killed in the end. I think that his followers probably did a bit too much embelleshing and ended up with several "Holy" writings, all written after the fact by people who didn't know him personally (I'm pretty sure of that one, but maybe one of them knew him somehow). We all know how oral tradition works, which is pretty much like that dopey "telephone" game. You always end up with a different story than the one told originally.
  20. Shiro Time Devourer I have returned!

    I don't hate the playa, just the game. To brush you off would be a colossal waste.
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