Multani said:
Ah, yes, I suppose I'll have to wait 20 years to find out who really attacked the World Trade Center when they declassify the necessary information, which, by that time, no one will give a rat's behind about it, but then again, that's what the FBI wants isn't it? You must admit, under the circumstances you described, it's extremely easy for the government to falsely convict someone of crimes they never commited...I mean, any information that could prove you innocent is conveniently classifed. Which brings to mind whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty. Why, I wouldn't be surprised if I were suddenly one day questioned by the FBI as to my alleged 'spying' activities.
If you have to wait 20 years I wouldn't be surprised, there have been several cases over the years where the inner details weren't declassified for extended periods of time. Though because of the incredible level of sevarity of this incident and the very high level of public interest I doubt they'd ever be able to get away with keeping it classified for even 5 years let alone 20+.
Under the circumstances I described I also stated that all infomation about a case is given over in a court of law, this includes but isn't limited to physical evidence, witness reports, coronor reports, reports from investigating and on scene officers and emergency reponse officials, and the manner in which all information was collected. Thus the government must give everything they've got over which makes it very difficult for them to set up a "fall guy" or frame someone or something they didn't do. Once a case hits court classified goes right out the window. The falsifying situations that you indicate to haven't happened since the time when FBI Director Hoover was in charge and when it came to light what the FBI was doing or at least trying to do they were placed under very tight operating regulations which includes a public conduct review board. But this is for regular cases dealing with much smaller scale crimes. In the situation we're in now I really doubt we'll ever see Bin Laden in court because he'll most likely die in the attacks first or some over eager soldier will cap him when they get him. On a side note I also heard, though I certainly can not prove in any way, that Osama has some kind of order with his aids that he isn't to be taken captive but martyred instead.
Actually, I never said I proved he was not guilty. I simply ESTABLISHED, that he was not guilty. I made an assumption about it, but it was well-based assumption.
Granted it is an fair assumption and it is true in pure technicality that he technically isn't guilty. But thats because he hasn't been dragged into a court room, and as I've stated its most likely that he never will be. However given that the rest of the world is in agreement and that even countries that have seen the released evidence that aren't fond of the US (eg. Iran and China,) are ageeing with it, it leads me to believe that there is sufficient evidence to prove he is guilty. Granted this is just on faith of the rest of the world, but theres an awful lot of agreement going on between groups that normally don't like each other much.
Punishement is usually morally or at least, legally justified. The U.S. has no legal right or power over Afghanistan. Doesn't matter that Bin Laden is there.
In a situation of law this is true, however the US isn't treating this as a situation of law, they're treating it as a situation of war which changes it dramatically. Whether its right or not is up to the diplomats and the opinionated to decide, but as I said before, its their only option at the moment.
Does Al Jarrezza really need quite as much as propaganda as CNN does? Technically, remember that international law is on Afghanistan's side. Also, remember that it's the U.S. that hit Afghanistan first, not the other way around.
Technically no news station needs propaganda. CNN doesn't need it at all as the vast majority of Americans are fully supporting the situation and have already stated in many polls that they are willing to accept several casualties. A-J doesn't need it either as tht majority of Arabs in the situation already hate america regardless of what they say. The only propaganda either of them broadcast anyways are the statements being released by either side. CNN broadcast US government statements and press confrences while A-J broadcasts all the Taliban and Al Quada statements and confrences. Journalists on both sides are only presenting the news, not making it up as they go.
According to international law means that an international tribunal would have to make a decision on the attacks legality, given the state of action by the international community I'd say that the decision has pretty much been made.
As for the US hitting first. Well, the Taliban have had various terrorist groups as guests in their country for many years including Bin Laden, the US has tried for at least the last 5 to get him extradited which has been refused at each meeting. Thus the Taliban are aiding and supporting the terrorist groups and certainly Bin Laden which technically means that the Afgan government is involved and thus they struck first.
I've heard interviews with former FBI, and CIA heads, and you know what? Strangely they presented more opinion then facts.
Of course they gave opinion, they have nothing else to give, hence the word former in your sentence. They aren't in the loop anymore and won't have facts to give. I've seen several of those interviews as well and what they're being asked for is their opinion, not to give a lecture. All the other experts are also only giving their opinions as well.
Yes, I do think people in universities know more and are more objective then the people who work for the government agencies, because let's face it. Unless you're really loyal to the government you're not gonna make it into something like the FBI and CIA. And yes, I know there are some reviews with experts on this matter. It's just that it pales in comparison to the interviews with government officials.
Its been proven in studies and stated by many agencies that university courses on advanced sciences are usually about 2 years behind the times in most places other then major developments in their fields, I'll find the articles about it that I've read if I can. This is why officers in the field are always going back to workshops and spending so much time in class rooms. almost 30% of policing is spent in constant study and learning so they're always up to date. University professors on the other hand are not required to be constantly learning as their job is to teach what they've already learned and since they don't get paid to go to workshops and advance themselves most rarely do unless they're very interested in whats being featured. Hence university professors are typically out of date.
This is why your seeing so many more government officials then other experts, because its known that the government people are going to be right up with the situation as its happening, and others are not.
Now, I admit, I'm not nearly as objective as I probably should be, but then again, I'm also human.
This can be said for any of us I would think.
Well, for one thing, on CNN I have seen basically, one general viewpoint. I see nothing regarding whether or not the U.S. should or shouldn't be attacking.
Actually this was spoken about in the first 2 weeks after the attack and the jist they got from both the public and the government is that yes, they should launch a counter offensive. Since that was taken care of for the time they moved on to other stuff regarding the situation.
Really? And if they torture you in mental and physical ways, and you report it to the court, who's gonna believe you? Can you prove it?
Physical torture is actually fairly easy to prove because it always leaves marks, scars, and damaged tissues which a doctor will find in investigation. The courts have to believe you as does the complaint brureu for any of those agencies. Even the RCMP up here have a conduct review board that is completely operated by civilians and various medical professionals that investigated EVERY case and complaint of any form of mistreatment even something as minor as say calling someone an a**h*** when your putting the cuffs on him or putting him in the drunk tank to things as major as a recent case where a prisnor was shot and killed by an officer while being put into a cell. The dead mans family tried to have it proved that the guy killed by a cop in a fit of rage and the cop said it was self defense because the guy went after his service pistol. The FBI and other major law enforcement agencies in the US also have these boards, though I'm not sure on the CIA since they are an internationally operating group.
Mental torture is also detectable as there are always flags that good phycologists will find and report.
point to the Lee Wen Ho's case, and the police shootings of the past as an example of how all law-enforcement agencies can grossly abuse their power.
What was the Lee Wen Ho case, I'm not familiar with it.
As for police shootings, well thats why they carry guns, so when they're attacked they can defend themselves. Besides that, cops do go bad sometimes, they're only human and its not fair to blame an entire orginization for the acts of a few dire individuals. Hence why the US isn't trying to wipe out all Arabs or all Muslims in the situation they're in now.
Really? Have you been to Russia?
Actually yes I have, I am half Russian after all.
Do YOU know what the KGB is really like? I've already shown you how the FBI can frame people and get away it. Oh sure, there's always a system for checks and balances for everything on paper, but in reality, it's extremely easy for law-enforcers to get around the law regrading, shall we say, shady actions.
Yes to that as well, my great-grandfather worked for the KGB before he and my great-grandmother defected and escaped to Canada. He told me a few stories before he died about just how brutal the KGB was. Speaking of which the KGB no longer exists anyways. They're now called the ISB or Internal Security Brureu. They're much more mellowed out, kinda like old hippies after the woodstock days, mostly cause they're dead broke.
Its not as nearly as easy to frame someone as you describe because those checks and balances on paper do work in action as well. There are alot of people who make sure of it. Under other forms of government where there is no public or civilian observation and investigation commitees allowed its easy, but in the US and Canada the system is too open for it now. Hence why some officers complain the law is to easy going and victims complain that the law is made to protect the perps instead of the victims and their families.
You still haven't answered my question. And as long as there's the potential for what I and many people say could happen, then we should be worried.
Well theres also a potential that aliens could could invade us, a massive earthquake could hit and crumble the continents, and that a nuclear war could break out any second. The simple fact is though that I'm not going to give myself an ulcer and become all paranoid over what could be when what could be, could be anything and in this case the odds are stacked against it.
Honestly though the US would have to literally wipe out at least half its population in order to achieve and maintain a totalitarianism government. They might be crap heads, but they aren't butchers.
I apologize thus far for expressing any personal opinions, but so far, I've tried to be as logical in my reasoning of the statements making as I possibly can.
No appology is needed, your reasoning is logical from a certain perspective, its just not one that I find feasable in the current state of continental affairs.
This is a perfect opportunity to advance U.S. interests
True, but there are hundreds of those every day that don't make to US look as nasty either, besides, I don't think theres much interest in Afghanastan besides booting the Taliban and getting Bin Laden and his goons. Theres just nothing there anymore besides caves, dust, and mud. Besides that the surrounding Arab community has already said that it won't allow a US "occupation" of the area after the situation has been sufficiently resolved. As beefy as the US is, it doesn't want to make that many enemies all at once when at the moment they're being pretty nice about things for the most part.
Everything I stated is POSSIBLE to the best of my knowledge. Should you come up with facts that contradict my statements, I would be more then happy to change my current views.
As I pointed out above, there are many many possibilities out there, an infinate number to be exact, so its impossible to contradict a possibility though there are some that are just highly improbable, which I believe those you stated other then B are. With B, you know that hardliners are going to try because they always do, its practically a tradition for them.
I'll admit, I was a bit opinionated, but being human, aren't we all?
Well, technically I consider myself closer to feline then human, humans are such nasty things at times. Its just genetics and that pesky doctor I have convincing me otherwise.
But yes, we are all opinionated about something, its part of being . . . unique.
Tomb said:
Since bin Laden, and Al Qaida, are currently among the leaders of the Taliban, and the Taliban consider themselves to be the current rulers of Afghanistan,
Well actually Bin Laden and his goons are esteemed guests and supporters of the Taliban, not members of it.
Kinda like the NRA isn't part of the US government, but we all know they sponsor it and have significant influence.
Gizmo said:
US: Well, Ariel, we`d really quite like you to stop murdering people.
Israel: Youve never had a problem with it before.
US: Yeah, but now its really threatening to rock the boat and destroy the entire world.
Israel: *thinks for a second* No I dont want to, I was elected on a mandate of murdering people so Im going to murder them. Its what my public wants.
US: Potentially we might get cross.
Israel: Kiss my Mooo.
US: *puckers up*
The one reason the US can't force them to stop is because the US and Israel are basically doing the same thing at the moment.
Israel withdrew, got attacked, went back in.
US got attacked, they went in.
If the US were to order Israel out and try and force it they'd just make themselves look like huge hypocrits to the rest of the world that thinks they aren't, which they don't want.
Spiderman said:
Putting aside the colorful descriptive choice of words, can you break down for me how many cease-fires there have been or agreed to between Israel and Palestine, and why they did not stick?
I can probably think of a dozen cease-fires that haven't stuck. They're always broken because either the Palestinians send in a suicide bomber who blows something up, or the Israeli police shoot some Palestinians. Sometimes both happen in the same day hence proving that neither side is serious about the peace process and is just going through with to make themselves look the desparate victim. Maybe we should be sending their government officials oscars.
Duke said:
Spiderman: "As I recall, Ura or someone did that. So what do you have to say now?"
No, actually, nobody did. Could you please point it out?
Actually I pointed it out at the begining of my first post to this thread featuring he exchange between yourself and Rando.
By Arabia? Oh, it was asked to take out its troops for some time now.
Was it by the Saudi Arabian government though, I wasn't aware of any other countries that have US forces bases in them. If it was the Saudi its a major change in policy on their part because as I said before with the US there it keeps Saddam Hussein out of their hair and gives the extremists something bigger to hate other then the repressive Saudi royal government, hence the Saudi's win twice over.
Osama Bin Landen warning them to leave would be like me walking up to the Prime Minister of Canada and saying to force out all the Japanese people or something like that. What I think means jack squat cause I'm just another civie with an opinion. It certainly doesn't give me any right to go and blow up the Tokyo Tower.
So no one thinks I'm a Japanese hating racist I happen to love Japanese people, probably more then any other culture on earth. I was just citing them as an example.
Funny how suddenly the U.S. is asking them to cease-fire, don't you think?
Its not really sudden. Bill Clinton had that as a major objective for his administration, and while not successful they did make some significant headway. Hell, he was able to get Arafat and the Israeli PM at the time into the same room talking without shooting at each other. That was something that Clinton at least worked very diligently on until his last days in office.
Furthermore, I personally, along with millions of Muslims around the world, think they should have not supported them in the first place...
While this much may be true, Israel would have been annihilated in they hadn't so its a difficult desision to have and is only dictated from your own point of view.
It's all retaliations. Just like the United States retaliation is justified as a hit-back for its losses on 9/11, you all must look at the 9/11 case as a hit-back for the losses of the past that the Arabian worlds have lost...
Yes its all retaliations, but where do they end, the Arab governments and extremists seem quite happy going to war these days and massacring thousands of civilians for doing nothing but living where they live and the US government is quite happy to pummle into the dirt anyone that flarks with it. It all goes back 4000 years to the first little caucasian guy and the first little arab guy who stuck their pointy sticks in each others bellies and got two races into a battle thats lasted their entire existence in recorded time.
