Christians massacred in Pakistan

[DÛke]

...

You keep lying to yourself Spiderman. Man, this is what I hate, people defending themselves as if they're the greatest...with an extream faliure to see one's own culpability. What a shame that a "civilized" society like this is so uneducated of the world beyond their own...

Why am I saying uneducated anyway?

You know what, college students, when I talk to them...I can't believe how much understanding they show...how amazingly well they argue, and how much of intellect they show. I'm just so amazed, that it's the grown ups whom are the closed-minded and arrogant...

I'm not trying to blame anyone, but I REALLY have fun talkin' to some students and professors, because they DON'T talk from the U.S. point of view; they speak from the WORLDLY, universal point of view, which satisfies EVERYONE...even me.

You, Spiderman, and most people here in the CPA would NEVER EVER be willing to admit that the U.S. is imperfect, unjust, and is, right now, not carrying out anything that's well established and fair...

It has turned out Talibans offer, and went on "strikes..."

It destoryed all the Afgani food storage centers, closed all their boarders, and send them food? I don't see how anyone with dignity would take this food...after you burn THEIR own food...

It's killing innocent people...

It's making kids parent-less...

It's dealing fear to a lot, and in turn, these fears will turn into hate, and hate into anger, and anger into revenge...and you'll have another attack...

...and then, again...THE U.S. DIDN'T DO ANYTHING...

NO, it didn't...

It ONLY destroyed people's lives...that's all...

BUT THEY DESTROYED OURS FIRST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No, if you've been listening to me, Gizmo, or Multani, you'd know by now that the U.S. IS the one starting all the wars...

In the past 20 years, the U.S. wars and issues have been mostly against colored-people...a VERY interesting fact...

...and before that...they've had wars and issues with so many others around the globe...

TELL me, WHY did he Arabs attack the U.S.!? Not Australia...Not Germany? Not any of these other "civilized" societies? Why was the U.S. singled out...

...simply because it's guilty of ruining so many...

...but not many of you here in the dear CPA are willing to even face that fact...that the ONLY reason the U.S. was attacked is because, in the long past, it has caused damage to others...

...to ME even...but I never cared because I was just a little kid...

Nobody cares about the U.S. "civil" society, or technology...believe me, you're flatering yourselves. Nobody cares how the U.S. citizens live their lives...but everyone cares about their OWN life, and the U.S. gets to decide how everyone lives...and that's not fair...

And then when you get hit...those who don't know all these, but have been busy eating Kit Kat all their lives, now turn around and say we're SO innocent...

No you're not...YOU, as an individual...maybe...but the government...

Nope...sorry.

That's all I have to say...

I realize this will only get me in more trouble here in the CPA, and even more hated...but I don't really care...if I'm gonna be hated for speakin' my mind, than so be it...

 

[Spiderman]

You're deluding yourself and letting this one thread cloud your memory... I have already admitted the US is imperfect and injust at times.

I notice you failed to reply to my last "reminder" directly.

What puzzles me is that while you (and I don't know if you can speak for Gizmo or Multani) seem to denounce the US response, you don't seem to hold to any denouncement of the act that BROUGHT the response. I remember you saying way back it was "a shame so many innocents" were killed. And that was it. Just a couple of posts ago you mentioned that you do not blame bin Laden.

Does a flawed US policy really justify the acts on 9/11? That's really the bottom line here.

The US is killing innocent people? bin Laden did that already, the Taliban have been doing it already, some say the Northern Alliance have been doing it already.

I'm saddened by the state of affairs that the people of Afghanistan cannot rise up against the Taliban or band together enough to prevent clan warfare. They obviously can't do it themselves. Do they want to? Probably some do and some don't.

Now I don't even know about your "fact" that the US has been waging war in the last 20 years on "colored people". There's probably only been about 2-3 "wars" that I can recall anyway. Ooo ahh

Before that, they've had wars and issues around the globe? WHO HASN'T??? Except those countries that are so less fortunate that they can't take care of their internal affairs, much less the world.

I'll tell you why the Arabs attacked the US: because it's the most powerful country right now. Period. And they can't seem to blame their own "people" for their own problems...

I would venture to guess that if countries learn how to manage their own and stop wasting time on killing themselves and each other, the US would stop their "interference". You don't see the US meddling with Great Britain, France, Germany, or Japan now, do you? And perhaps the answer is... they're stable countries! The US doesn't care about them (except maybe trade issues).

Stop blaming the US for your supposed problems and take care of your own matters.

 

[Daggertooth]

Hate is such a strong word Duke. Why would anyone hate you for stating your oppinions?


Fist of all, I've seen alot of news and Every report about the Al Jazeera is how reliable it is. How it is not influenced by governmental rules or regulations so It can speak it's mind and present unbiased truth to the best of their ability. And this was from CNN praising them. I certainly haven't heard anything negative about them. So Who's calling them liars?

It could be argued that by attacking 25% of the worlds trading the terrorists were not only attacking americans, but the western Ideals. Course I doubt it was just a coincidence, two birds with one stone is more like it. I can't think of any better place these people could have attacked that would have had that great of impact to the world and US.

 

[DÛke]

...

Who called them liars?

Apollo AND Spiderman...

...and I was watchin' MTV, and they showed a little thing about what "Aljazeera" is, they mentioned some "facts," and one of them was that it's making the U.S. mad because it's showing images the U.S. does not want to be revealed. [Spiderman said it's unconfirmed that there were actually dead people because of U.S. bombings in another thread, but Aljazeera DID confirm it...but Spiderman wants his precious homeland to confirm it, only then is it an actual fact that's critical to his state of mind]

Spiderman, YES, now...that I think about it...it more than just justifies it...it makes me THANKFUL that they didn't go further with it. I know it's a horrible thing, and I dare not say the individuals themselves deserved it, but I WILL say that the government more than deserves it...after all it has caused.

Additionally, the U.S. is not messing around with others because those others are either ALLIES of the U.S., or they obey the U.S from fear. They all know it has power that it can abuse so arrogantly...it's like a raging, blinded giant that has so much power to weild but zero wisdom to understand and think.

I don't CARE what and whom died in the U.S., they could've at least considered Taliban's offer, but no...they didn't. Is it better now? Are they achieving anything?

Well, let's look at it:

Some MUD (for God's sake) houses got shattered...

People died, and 12-year olds are left alone to feel to Pakistan and WORK (!) for a living...[Confirmed by Aljazeera, Spiderman]

A hospital (or some medical center) was destroyed...

The food resources were destroyed...oh, but the U.S. offered it's own food...(wtf!)

...oh...

And let's not forget the little hill that was shattered too...

Hmmm...

ALL these losses...

Versus...

The spending of tons and tons and tons of jet fuel, innocent soldiers leaving their lives to "fight" a needless fight...

And...where's bin Ladin!?

I mean, BY NOW, for God's sake...at LEAST show the people what they want to see, bin Ladin's death! I mean, do SOMETHING...

"There's possibly another attack in few days...", the U.S. declares...

Yeah...can you confirm it?

"Yes..."

Tell us one resource?

"Um...we don't...um...really know...but...hey...it's better to be safe than sorry..."

What kinda government is this!? Man...I'm very upset that you people don't see this...but hey, to each his own. The U.S. government is crying! It doesn't know what to do...but bomb, bomb, bomb...in hope to achieve something in the long run. Don't be fooled by the CNN, so far...The U.S. haven't gotten ONE thing established. It's just staggering...like a child who doesn't know what to do...

It's just a waving giant with so much power...but no wisdom...that's what >>I<< think.

They're also lookin' to "bring Iraq to justice" after the Afgan case is done. Well, if ONE, just ONE Iraqi dies in Iraq...GOD...I'm not gonna even discuss the level of unhappiness I will be in...and I will despise the U.S. FOREVER, and flee it instantly...

If somebody really wants to know (so far not many if any at all), you just read back the history...and see how it all gotten down into this terrible-ness. DON'T listen to me...I'm not just a waving giant with no wisdom...but if you want to know the truth, you read the history of the U.S. support and doings, and you'll see that I'm not jus a blind little 18-year old whose just raving mad for no reason at all...

Please educate yourselves further before saying anything...I wasn't this angery at all, but now...in the course of writing my Term Paper for my Government class, I've read so much...from all kinda sources...and like I said, I hate it...now that I know the whole story...but hey, I gotta live with the truth, even if it kills me...

They ONLY attacked the U.S. because it mistreated THEM...why is that hard to understand...

So the U.S. can attack because it's misstreated, and THEY can't?

Heck, the U.S. is only mistreated because of it's own actions. It's making its bed, and now...it's getting some rest on it..

Because the current "strikes" the U.S. has made, there will be another wave...307%, no speculations at all. You know what, I'm not the only Arab-Muslim-American who's so angery right now...like I said, at least I can calm myself down a bit, but just imagine those who can't, those who'll go to extream points to prove their points? What about them? What about the millions OUTSIDE of the U.S. who're just as angery as I am...and I'm angery, and NON of this has happened to ME...I just can't bear thinking of how THEY must feel, and I even fear the limits they will push in the future...

The U.S., right now, is in the deep process of making a terrorists network...simply by attacking...new generation of terrorists are forming right now, in and outside of the U.S....

Is this what you wanted?

 

[Almindhra]

Originally posted by DÛke
Man, this is what I hate, people defending themselves as if they're the greatest...with an extream faliure to see one's own culpability.

I love people who say these things and don't even go by them themselves...

 

[DÛke]

...oh believe me child, I know how much guilty I am...and I'm willing to admit how guilty I AM:

1. I'm beginning to become a racist...VERY SAD, because I HAVE ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS defended the equality of EVERYONE.

2. I'm beginning to not care about the people who actually DIED in the U.S., simply because I think there a justification...but the truth is, there's not justification...but I'm guilty of submitting to the justificaction.

3. I'm beginning, I'm SO, SO, SORRY...I'm beginning to wish they had done more...I'm SO sorry, again...

4. I'm workin' on getting out of the U.S., which is sad, because again, I should have my own life that can't be shaken by anything, but I'm guilty of being shaken...of being harassed by something that's not supposed to harass me.

I can truely admit all my guilts...and it takes SO much guts to do that, but I'm willing to do it just to show you that I AM not perfect, I never was...but why lie and say YOU are!?

 

[Spiderman]

Originally posted by DÛke
...

Who called them liars?

Apollo AND Spiderman...

This kind of slander is uncalled for. I have NEVER said they were liars and I dare you to find my quote where I said that.

...and I was watchin' MTV, and they showed a little thing about what "Aljazeera" is, they mentioned some "facts," and one of them was that it's making the U.S. mad because it's showing images the U.S. does not want to be revealed. [Spiderman said it's unconfirmed that there were actually dead people because of U.S. bombings in another thread, but Aljazeera DID confirm it...but Spiderman wants his precious homeland to confirm it, only then is it an actual fact that's critical to his state of mind]

No, what I said is that it is not a "fact" that only civilians have been killed by the bombings. I know it has been confirmed that civilians have been killed, and from my rememberence, I cannot say if it has been confirmed if Taliban soldiers have been killed (since I only recall it coming from reports from Norther Alliance members).

Spiderman, YES, now...that I think about it...it more than just justifies it...it makes me THANKFUL that they didn't go further with it. I know it's a horrible thing, and I dare not say the individuals themselves deserved it, but I WILL say that the government more than deserves it...after all it has caused.

Then that's the problem right there, since we disagree on this fundamental issue.

Additionally, the U.S. is not messing around with others because those others are either ALLIES of the U.S., or they obey the U.S from fear. They all know it has power that it can abuse so arrogantly...it's like a raging, blinded giant that has so much power to weild but zero wisdom to understand and think.

You have got to be kidding, "obey from fear"? Great Britain, France, Japan? Where's Gizmo or someone else from the UK....

You want examples of where we're not messing yet they aren't allies (at least, not buddies)? Let's try Iran, let's try Syria... I'll even go as far as to say China, although they're more in between. Puh-leaze...

I don't CARE what and whom died in the U.S., they could've at least considered Taliban's offer, but no...they didn't. Is it better now? Are they achieving anything?

Why should the Taliban have to "offer" anything? Just give up bin Laden, what's so hard with that? At least the US isn't going to summarily execute him in the "middle of the night", like the Taliban did with Haq.

Well, let's look at it:

Some MUD (for God's sake) houses got shattered...

Kinda like the WTC?

People died, and 12-year olds are left alone to feel to Pakistan and WORK (!) for a living...[Confirmed by Aljazeera, Spiderman]

Apparently conditions are so bad a lot of them are forced to beg/work anyway (not that this is an excuse)

The food resources were destroyed...oh, but the U.S. offered it's own food...(wtf!)

Like it's getting to the Afghan people... the Taliban took over those warehouses a while ago.

I mean, BY NOW, for God's sake...at LEAST show the people what they want to see, bin Ladin's death! I mean, do SOMETHING...

Death would probably be worse, actually to capture...

"There's possibly another attack in few days...", the U.S. declares...

Yeah...can you confirm it?

"Yes..."

Tell us one resource?

"Um...we don't...um...really know...but...hey...it's better to be safe than sorry..."

Oh yeah, like the US is going to advertise the exact time and date when an attack is going to occur.... why don't we just post all military movements for everyone to see?

They ONLY attacked the U.S. because it mistreated THEM...why is that hard to understand...

So the U.S. can attack because it's misstreated, and THEY can't?

Heck, the U.S. is only mistreated because of it's own actions. It's making its bed, and now...it's getting some rest on it..

Frankly, bin Laden attacked the US and the US hadn't done SQUAT to him.

Because the current "strikes" the U.S. has made, there will be another wave...307%, no speculations at all. You know what, I'm not the only Arab-Muslim-American who's so angery right now...like I said, at least I can calm myself down a bit, but just imagine those who can't, those who'll go to extream points to prove their points? What about them? What about the millions OUTSIDE of the U.S. who're just as angery as I am...and I'm angery, and NON of this has happened to ME...I just can't bear thinking of how THEY must feel, and I even fear the limits they will push in the future...

And there's also "millions" of Arab-Muslim-Americans (or just Arab-Muslims) who want to see the Taliban go down and have been saying it's about time.

 

[Daggertooth]

Well who needs to have the dead comfirmed? We droped bombs with the intent to kill, I'd assume our aim is good enough to kill at least somone.

As for governments deserving things. If that was the way the world worked every government and nation ever created would be hammared and attacked for past wrongs. America is only the latest in interfearing with others and making weaker nations "misreble".

by duke
Additionally, the U.S. is not messing around with others because those others are either ALLIES of the U.S., or they obey the U.S from fear. They all know it has power that it can abuse so arrogantly...it's like a raging, blinded giant that has so much power to weild but zero wisdom to understand and think.

Bah! Its economic. We mess with them we loose millions in foreign trade. Not to mention they have a large standing army that can well defend themselfs. America wont do enything that will harm it's well being.


Accomplishments of the War:

Securing Air space.
This wasn't hard to do, but at least we did it.

Killing Soldiers
Yes our enemy has had casualties. Civilians? What did you expect. A bomb blows up and you think only targets will die. As for the hospital, I hardly think a mud hut with primitive medical suplies counts as a hospital, but regardless, that wasn't the intended target.

Spending money into America's damaged Economy
Ironic isn't it. They attack the world in the heart of our economy and our retaliation helps fix it.

Raising American Spirit and Pride
Well it is. I wouldn't have been too happy if we just sat around doing nothing.

I do think that CNN is something that I can trust, although I will check out other sites to see their version of propaganda. The US is just leveling military sights in the hopes to lessen the american death tol when our land invasion occures. At least I hope thats the plan, afterall it has already been proved that just bombing accomplishes nothing.


America Screwed up? Big suprise, like that hasn't happened before. What kinda truth do you want us to know? That america isn't perfect? That were directly or indirectly responsible for hundreads of thousands of dead worldwide? Well, I'd hope most people already know that.

They ONLY attacked the U.S. because it mistreated THEM...why is that hard to understand...

And their beutifuly executed attack will be rememberd for years to come. Why is it so hard for you to understand our retaliation? They have very good reasons to hate the US and to try to blow us all to hell. But dont expect us to fold under their little attack. We will retaliate as we are now. Is it justified? Is it what we should do? That can't be ansered untill about 10 years from now. Till then I support the actions. I'd hate to be living in a place that will sit complacent while its civilians are under attack.

The U.S., right now, is in the deep process of making a terrorists network...simply by attacking...new generation of terrorists are forming right now, in and outside of the U.S....

A new one? Bah! this old one has networks world wide. I'ts in every nation and is very powerful. Attacking one nation may dammage them, slighly, but I doubt we'll attack every nation out there. We'll just have to keep our eyes out.

Is this what you wanted?

Actualy, yes.

Daggertooth

 

[arhar]

It's nice to know I don't have to say anything when there are Spiderman and Daggertooth posting what I would've posted, but without the anger and blind rage

 

[Spiderman]

Anyway, I have to question some of Daggertooth's statements....

There's no reason to mess with them not because they can fight back and we lose trade or whatever, but because there's no reason too. They're not going out and invading other countries, they're not repressing their citizens (well, except maybe Ireland, but even that seems to be on track now, with the IRA offering to disarm and the British pulling back).

I know the point that DUke is trying to make is that we are also killing civilians who had nothing to do with the WTC stuff. And while it happens that some civilians ARE getting killed, the US is doing it's damndest not to do a whole-sale slaughter. We dropped how many tons of ordanance for how long? And how many civilians have been killed?

Now, it depends whether you accept that "margin of error" or you don't. Obviously DUke doesn't, which is fine. I don't think it's all that great either, but I think getting bin Laden is hopefully worth it.

And I will admit that so far it doesn't seem like we're getting him. And that I take that view because I am on the other side of the Atlantic and not getting bombed myself.

 

[Daggertooth]

Well, perhaps I ment that as one of the reasons. They are our allies, not to mention since most americans have european ancetery there would be a conflict of interest for the american people if a war with any of those would occure. Much like the state of affairs during the first world war. I myself would not be pleased if I were to attack the Netherlands, the place of my fathers birth.

In that sence I can see on of the reasons why Duke dislikes this attack. I guess the moral dilema of inocents dieing is a big thing too.

Daggertooth

 

[Thallid Ice Cream Man]

Score one for semantics

 

[theorgg]

Originally posted by DÛke
...

Since the world is so separated...

Us "Muslims" don't mind it. Nope. That's the truth. I haven't heard a single Muslim, out of 20, 000 whom I know that has ANYTHING bad to say even about bin Ladin. The fact is, WE, since we're viewed as a smaller part of society, that we're "tribal," and are unsophisticated, stone-age people...WE can fight amongst ourself. We as a "stupid" community, can do anything we want amongst ourselves...

...we can fight each other during Ramadan, we can fight each other, and commit unspeakable crimes during anytime...amongst each other...

...but we, as Muslims, and I'm represeing more than 20, 000 people here, DO NOT, in any way, shape, or from, want ANYONE else to come and fight with or in us. We're one big f**ked family, we can do anything we want to each other, but we don't like it when a stranger comes in and starts takin' sides, supporting "them" while leaving "the others," and bombin' them, and killing those...NOPE, NOT allowed. We fight each other, yes...but in these times...EVEN US, the "lower" life-forms unite, and we are uniting...we are saying: STOP IT. STOP the war. The extreamist MUST DIE in fatal, brutal way, but STOP IT, YOU get OUT of my house dang it!

NOT hard to understand...but it seems to be...

Interesting... It sounds very similar to, in their language, "niggers."

Understood, I use the term as a joke, as they use it within their own groups of friends as a complement as I use the word "dude" or somthing similar, such as mabe "man" or "guys." However, if somone else that is not from their normal peer group is as presumptuous to call them a "nigger--" well, all hell breaks loose.

The scary thing is that this is a racist reaction, though in a minor way... I honestly do not understand it.

As for what has and what is happening... It's a tragedy. Pure and simple-- It's sad. It's horrible...

and it's nothing different than what has happened in the past several million years. D-E-V-O-L-U-T-I-O-N, for sure.

 

[DÛke]

...

Yes, Orgg, we are a racial group like you mentioned. We like to do things to each other, but not like it when others do the same exact thing to us...

Additionally, THANK YOU so much Orgg for the "Devolution" concept...THAT is the word I have been striving to find to describe this whole thing...it just didn't come to my mind...

Man, I can't say it enough...Devolution, devolution, and some more devolution...we are the future primitives...

Anyway, I'm glad, at least, that a lot of students in REAL life know the whole story, from beginning to end. I'm glad my professors understand my situation...THAT'S why I love America, because it has such understanding few that can take your mind off of ANYTHING just by being there and being able to understand the situation without me justifying or explaining...

College students are so much more mature than adults...some want to start a strike against the war...and it just might happen...I'm not that type of a person, but just to let you know that some people DO understand...and it makes me SO happy to see colleges around the country do that or something similar too...it makes me feel that I'm at home, and not alone...

And Spiderman, in Arhar's other thread, when I mentioned that innocent people died because of U.S. bombings, you said something on the lines of "yeah, but it's not confirmed." But it is. By Aljazeera. When you don't think their confirmation is valid, than obviously, you think they're untrue, therefore liers...

One little warning though, and consider my vision: there are a lot of people who are pissed off at the U.S. actions, and they deserve to be. When another attack happens, please relate it to the events of today, because today is the reason for the future to happen, and when it does happen, please don't do this again...and say they're just extreamist...but ALL I ask you is to remember these days, remember this tragedy, and remember the U.S. actions...and when the next lashback occures, hopefully, unlike this time...you'll be able to justify it...because yes, it is justifable...

They are poor people with not much of a strong military power. They can't fight back so powerfully so instantly, so they have to play a very well planned game inorder to "strike back." The time between this war and the lashback is long, so people will forget what the U.S. has done, and when something happens, they'll say that the U.S. is just a heaven; it's not guilty; it has done anything wrong. If they had instant power, they would be at war with the U.S., and everything would seem so natural, but they're poor. They can't afford anything...but they do have brains, and their "war" will only begin when the U.S. war ends...believe me, I KNOW.

That's what's happening right now, people are forgetting about the history; or even, they might not know it because they've been living so happily here naturally not carring for the outside world...but others, with equal right for living happily, are suffering...being harassed on daily basis...yes, yes, it's their government's fault, but we must learn to admit, for example, in the case of the Palestines, it's the fault of the U.S. too, for allowing and supporting Isreal so dearly...

I'm very, very, very exhausted of trying to get you to understand, so now, all I want you to do is...understand the future, because another attack, and another, and another, and another will happen...and when they do, please, at least ask yourself "why did it happen?" before assuming anything else...just ask "why?" even if you know you'll end up lying to yourself inorder to stick with your own values...just ask "why?" anyway...

From the actions of today, hopefully you'll be able to at least identify the reason behind the outcomes of tommorow, even if it does not satify you or does not seem as a justification...the important part is, you understand why....REALLY understand why...

 

[Daggertooth]

So wait, are you implying that those of us arguing against you "Don't" know the complete picture? That we don't understand?

Perhaps I'm miss-interpreting what you've just said, and if thats the case then I'm sorry. But I don't think it's fair to assume I don't know whats going on. Yes I see the whole picture, I see why we were attacked, I see the hate that they have for us, and I see why we retaliated. And yes, I do expect a retaliation for our retaliation. Just because of the extensive network they have.

Those passifists make me sick. They are the people responsible for our late arival in WW1 and WW2. In a global economy you can't be a passifist, especialy if you want to stay in the worlds market.

Perhaps it is your history that needs to be refreshed. What is our history on Terrorism. In the past most if not all foreign terrorism we have expirienced has been from the middle east. Many attacks we've been quite sure where it came from. We've tried to get Ladin before. It's not like this is the first time we noticed him. We've been hit several other times before and looked for justice with no avail. Those times we talked about it, asked for it, and tried to be all nice and diplomatic. Now we demand it. Isn't that just as justified as their attacks on us?


Daggertooth

 

[Spiderman]

Originally posted by DÛke

And Spiderman, in Arhar's other thread, when I mentioned that innocent people died because of U.S. bombings, you said something on the lines of "yeah, but it's not confirmed." But it is. By Aljazeera. When you don't think their confirmation is valid, than obviously, you think they're untrue, therefore liers...

What the date of my post on that thread? And I have still YET to see your backing up with a quote of mine of where I supposedly said I "lied" about Al-Jazeera being false or whatever, or an apology if I didn't.

And what, just because Al-Jazeera says it happens, IT MUST HAVE? Yet you condemn CNN for saying stuff and IT CAN"T HAVE HAPPENED? What's up with that?

One little warning though, and consider my vision: there are a lot of people who are pissed off at the U.S. actions, and they deserve to be. When another attack happens, please relate it to the events of today, because today is the reason for the future to happen, and when it does happen, please don't do this again...and say they're just extreamist...but ALL I ask you is to remember these days, remember this tragedy, and remember the U.S. actions...and when the next lashback occures, hopefully, unlike this time...you'll be able to justify it...because yes, it is justifable...

They are poor people with not much of a strong military power. They can't fight back so powerfully so instantly, so they have to play a very well planned game inorder to "strike back." The time between this war and the lashback is long, so people will forget what the U.S. has done, and when something happens, they'll say that the U.S. is just a heaven; it's not guilty; it has done anything wrong. If they had instant power, they would be at war with the U.S., and everything would seem so natural, but they're poor. They can't afford anything...but they do have brains, and their "war" will only begin when the U.S. war ends...believe me, I KNOW.

That's what's happening right now, people are forgetting about the history; or even, they might not know it because they've been living so happily here naturally not carring for the outside world...but others, with equal right for living happily, are suffering...being harassed on daily basis...yes, yes, it's their government's fault, but we must learn to admit, for example, in the case of the Palestines, it's the fault of the U.S. too, for allowing and supporting Isreal so dearly...

Give me a break. What you're failing to do is that these causes ALL the way back and you just want to stop at the US.

First of all, name something that the US has done DIRECTLY to whoever people you're referring to. By your statements above, blacks should be bombing the US for slavery, American Indians should be doing it for their almost genocide by the European settlers (heck they should be doing it in Europe for even coming over to North America), the Aborigines should be doing it to England for coming over to Australia and nearly wiping them out, Mexico and South America natives should be doing it to Spain for wiping out the Aztecs and Incas... the list goes on.

Second, why don't we blame Hitler for actually causing the Holocaust and making the state of Israel a reality? Better yet, why don't we blame those Palestinians/Hamas who REFUSE to adhere to any cease-fire and chance for peace?

Take off your blinders DUke and get to the REAL causes of these conflicts, instead of trying to smokescreen the US.

I'm very, very, very exhausted of trying to get you to understand, so now, all I want you to do is...understand the future, because another attack, and another, and another, and another will happen...and when they do, please, at least ask yourself "why did it happen?" before assuming anything else...just ask "why?" even if you know you'll end up lying to yourself inorder to stick with your own values...just ask "why?" anyway...

From the actions of today, hopefully you'll be able to at least identify the reason behind the outcomes of tommorow, even if it does not satify you or does not seem as a justification...the important part is, you understand why....REALLY understand why... [/B][/QUOTE]

 

[DÛke]

...

Daggertooth, I was not assuming that nobody knew the cause and effect, I'm assuming Spiderman does not though.

Daggertooth:
Yes I see the whole picture, I see why we were attacked, I see the hate that they have for us, and I see why we retaliated. And yes, I do expect a retaliation for our retaliation. Just because of the extensive network they have.

As LONG as you understand this, than my duty is done with you anyway. As long as you've asked why and gotten the answer, than you deserve my respect. Much respect for you...

Daggertooth:
What is our history on Terrorism. In the past most if not all foreign terrorism we have expirienced has been from the middle east. Many attacks we've been quite sure where it came from.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR POINTING THAT OUT! WHY do you think it has been only from the Middle East? Is it just blind hate that they have against the American society? Or are they just a group of people who dislike civilization and technology? Or is it that they're Muslims and you're not, and they just have such extream hate for you? Why do you think...please answer me, I'm beginning to think that you actually KNOW the cause and effect, therefore I will resume on conversing. Just tell me, calmly, why do you think the Middle East has so much hatred for the U.S.? Tell me what you think...

Anybody who can answer that question is passionatly urged to do so...

 

[Spiderman]

I don't even deign a reply?

I think I know some cause and effect, I just think that you're stopping at "the US is the cause" and not going back further for more cause and effect.

You know why it's from the Middle East? Because it's bin Laden driving it in the past 10 years and charismatic as he is, he's drawn quite a few followers. Think on this: if he hated Japan instead, would we be seeing these attacks on Japan and the US would be relatively clean?

 

[Daggertooth]

Originally posted by DÛke
WHY do you think it has been only from the Middle East? Is it just blind hate that they have against the American society? Or are they just a group of people who dislike civilization and technology? Or is it that they're Muslims and you're not, and they just have such extream hate for you? Why do you think...please answer me, I'm beginning to think that you actually KNOW the cause and effect, therefore I will resume on conversing. Just tell me, calmly, why do you think the Middle East has so much hatred for the U.S.? Tell me what you think...

Well there probably a million reasons for this.

There is always unrest when it comes to different religions. For extremests the fact that I'm not muslim might just be enough to kill me. As much so as since I'm not Religious many religions have condemed me and posibly hate me.

Also, the Jihad may influence people to be against America without them knowing why they should be. Of course there is most likely already a dislike for americans.


Politicaly.....well lets see....That area has been at war for several of years. The crusades probably ingrained in them a hate for the Western world. That coupled with our medling for oil and support for the removal of their holy land probably didn't help their view of us. And we have levied some restrictions on their government that has weakend it and indirectly caused the death of thousands. I wouldn't be suprised that they blame us for every death by the israeli military.

And the Israeli military has done some of the cruelest things I've ever read about. But then again war is cruel and they can hardly be blamed for it.

Does that cover everything you wanted to hear?

Daggertooth

 

[DÛke]

...

Hip, Daggertooth. Very hip.

Well, as long as you have told me what YOU think, and what you think is backed by some actual facts, because what you think is exactly what I think...and I have the facts. Of course, it's just a bit deeper than that, but you do have understanding...I've read a lot...so what your saying is basically a summery...

I guess I'm done, as long as after all this, at least someone in this conversation understands me.

Thanks Daggertooth...