Christians massacred in Pakistan

[TomB]

But that's strictly a matter of personal taste

DÛke:
Please stop insinuating that I would close/delete/ban, or censor anything strictly on the basis of whether I agree with someone's political opinions or views. I have never done so in the past, and I do not plan on changing that at any time in the future.

As I have already stated, I believe in the right of free speech, and I will defend your right to be as cold and insensitive as you like with my life, if necessary.

Speaking of which, on Gizmo...

From what I remember he's quit the CPA twice now - once for Magic reasons (though that might have just been a "I'll be coming around a bit less" sort of warning) and once over this whole 9/11 affair, and our reaction to his opinions. Neither quit took, and I suspect this one won't either, but we'll see.

Maybe I was a bit rude in my comeback to Gizmo on the TICM thing (and I have to admit, I haven't read/don't remember the poem in question) but to me, he deserved it for being rude to TICM in the first place. If he apologizes to TICM then I'll apologize to him, but, frankly, I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for that to happen.

Back to DÛke:

After all, like TomB spoke for all

I've also never claimed to speak for the masses DÛke, so please stop being so melodramatic. I'm simply stating my opinion, coming from a working-class stiff in the good old U.S. of A.

Here's a building joke that pushes the envelope on profanity:

WHEN WE REBUILD...

 

[Gizmo]

....mmm what to do. To not post just to spite TomB for saying I would? Or to post to say what I want to say. Which is that I`ll apologise to TICM when he apologises for basically calling us all preening egomaniacs for even talking about this or any other topic where there is fundamental disagreement.


Moving on...

And this 'big shot' thing? Wheres THIS come from. if you are going to talk about tournament Magic, then yes, Im going to argue my point very forcefully because I happen to believe I am right. But I dont recall a single time Ive ever in any way tried to use any 'big shot' status and pull rank.


And finally...

Ive no problem with jokes. Ive got a very black sense of humour. You simply wont offend me with jokes, you`ll offend me with hypocrisy.

Hypocrisy means one rule for one and a different rule for another.
Which is wrong.
There is a rule - singular.
Period.
What did I object to about 9-11 bombing?
That most of the people so outraged hadnt given a flying fig about ANY OTHER tragedy/conflict/genocide that had occured over the past ten years.
Thats not right.
The people in the WTC, killed for the simple blind luck of where their career paths had led them, were just that.
People.
The people in Kosovo, killed for their ethnic heritage, were people too.
People.
The people in Arab West Bank settlements, killed because they were trapped into a recurring cycle of religious hatred, were people too.
People.
The children in Iraqi hospitals, killed because the US and UK dont like the man who runs the country they dont even realise they are a part of, were people too.
People.

Now I dont care if you choose to care about every single one of those deaths, or none of them. But if you choose to care about some and not others then you instantly abdicate the moral high ground.
Thats called hypocrisy.
If you have a belief system that is applied fairly to all people no matter their race, creed, colour, religion, hair length, gender or even body piercing, then though I might disagree with that belief system I would respect your right to hold it. But if your belief system is applied unequally, then I will fight tooth and claw to assail that belief system because in that unequal treatment of one group by another is the germ of every war and conflict in all of human history.

Care for all, or care for none.
Those are the rules.
Care for some and not for others.
That is not acceptable.

 

[Spiderman]

Ura: About bin Laden being a mastermind:

I can see your points and what you're saying, but it seems to me that for a single man to remain on the US radar for so long conveys cunning and fortitude. You hear about other terrorist atacks on US interests and for the most part, those groups have faded in the background (or have been downgraded in importance). bin Laden has been consistent and relentless in his perceived goal.

Not being supplanted by another in all these years, even while absorbing other extremist organizations demonstrates his survivability. And while lots of Muslims may have reason to hate the US, it is HE and not a group of others who is doing the rallying and recruiting. Developing and keeping the drug trade and whatever else he has going financially shows business acumen and again, no one has tried (that we know of) to take over this lucrative business.

Gizmo: I see what you're saying too, but it seems that there can be "gray" cases in there. You're not going to spend your whole life fighting against every injustice against your moral code; you've got to pick and choose your battles.

We could add:

People in the Israeli settlements, just trying to live their lives free from anti-Semetism (or just plain trying to live), killed because they are the "occupying race".
People.

Kuwaiti people killed because they just happen to be in a smaller country and have something that a bigger country wants.
People.

 

[DÛke]

...

Spiderman: "People in the Israeli settlements, just trying to live their lives free from anti-Semetism (or just plain trying to live), killed because they are the "occupying race"..."

The fact is, they're NOT just trying to live their lives. I don't know what they're doing, but they're being supported by the U.S., supported in a way so they can murder others. If that's just people trying to live their lives...than...whow...

I believe what Gizmo is trying to say is, we, as people must not define boarders, and accept only those with certain properties. If I come to you and dislike you or disagree with everything you say simply because you're an "American", than I'm just as evil as evil itself. The case with TomB is, he gets "pissed off" when others seem to defend the rights of the world or their countries. It's not like any of us has truely said some offensive things, it's just that, some of us speak for the United States, and some of us speak for the whole world. That's the only difference. Non of us wished any people dead, but it happened...so what? That doesn't mean I must side with the U.S. on every issue...no...I think it's quite the opposite. It makes me even more curious as to why the U.S. was attacked. Some people wouldn't ever like to discuss the question "why," because they know deep down the truth will not be so egotistically satisfying, and there are others who face the truth no matter how hard it is, and even speak the truth or the knoweldge of experience no matter how many people disagree...that's Gizmo, and that's me.

TomB:
I've also never claimed to speak for the masses DÛke, so please stop being so melodramatic.

Um, what do you call this:

TomB:
Actually, DÛke, we don't really care about those buildings. It's the 5000+ innocent lives that were lost that day that piss us off...

?

"We," as in...not just I, but "we."

 

[Spiderman]

The fact is, they're NOT just trying to live their lives. I don't know what they're doing, but they're being supported by the U.S., supported in a way so they can murder others. If that's just people trying to live their lives...than...whow...

Saying such a grandiose and generalized statement like that is the same as saying EVERY Palestinian is up in arms and killing Israelis and being supported by Syria and who knows what else (Lebanon?).

And I KNOW neither is true, just like all Muslims are not against the US and all Americans are not against all Muslims.

I seriously hope you are not that naive. The only way you can support that statement is by getting casualty lists (aside from the Israeli soldiers) and show that every "Israeli citizen" was active in hunting down Palestinians.

Just like everywhere, there are people who don't give a whit's fig about nationwide affairs and just want to shop, eat, work and make money, and sleep (and the violence happens to be disrupting that, which would be the extent of their caring).

 

[arhar]

DUKE SHUT THE oink UP ALREADY!!!!!!!!!

NOT TRYING TO LIVE THEIR LIVES?

YES EVERYBODY IN ISRAEL IS SPENDING 24/7 JUST PLANNING HOW TO MURDER MORE ARABS!!! WHEN I LIVED IN ISRAEL, I WOULDN'T GO TO LUNCH UNTIL I SHOT AT LEAST ONE PALESTINIAN 7-YEAR OLD GIRL!!! MMMMM THAT FELT SO GOOD!!!

Jeez, have you COMPLETELY LOST YOUR MIND?!?!?!?

Every goddamn attack was STARTED BY PALESTINIANS!!!!!

Israelis NEVER started anything, from 1920s and up to this day they were ATTACKED, their planes got hijacked, buses got blown up, and their everyday existence is threatened constantly, yet never ever they start any wars or fires. Duke and Gizmo, you DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. I actually lived in there.... I walked the streets of Tel-Aviv AND arabian towns...

I'm sorry, I just lost it for a second. I can take bulloink anti-Israel propaganda from Gizmo for a while, but when I see blatantly rasict statement such as "The fact is, they're NOT just trying to live their lives. I don't know what they're doing, but they're being supported by the U.S., supported in a way so they can murder others. If that's just people trying to live their lives...than...whow... " from Duke, I can't let it go.

[Edit: Good thing I'm here to oink things then - Spidey]

 

[Spiderman]

Israelis NEVER started anything, from 1920s and up to this day they were ATTACKED

That's not exactly true, according to one of Ura's links:

http://www.time.com/time/europe/timetrails/israel/

"The U.K., France and Israel secretly plotted to attack Egypt, with Israel hoping to secure more territory and contain Egyptian power and the two European nations hoping to retake the canal and overthrow Nasser.

Israel attacked on Oct. 29, 1956, and European air relief followed on Nov. 5 (TIME, Nov. 12, 1956)"

Interestingly enough, it was the UK backing Israel here and the US and Russia telling Israel to back off:

"Under U.S. and Soviet pressure, Israel was compelled to give up its gains and France and the U.K. to remove their forces."

Israel also attacked here:

"On June 5, 1967 the Israeli Army Chief of Staff Yitzhak Rabin launched a preemptive strike on Arab forces (TIME, June 16, 1967), annihilating Nasser's airforce. "

Israel also invaded Lebanon in 1982, although it does not say (and I didn't follow the link to the actual news article) if they were responding to PLO aggessions or anything.

Oops, never mind; I read the article and it appears a whole bunch of stuff between Israel and the PLO preceded that invasion.

Now, regarding the terrorist climate from the '90's, like suicide bombers and such, there is no info that I have readily available that indicates who started what (which was why I was asking for it in the first place).

 

[DÛke]

...

Sorry Spiderman, I didn't mean to generalize. However, it is that same attitude and level that I have stepped down to, I feel coming from Arhar and TomB, in a less obvious manner. I think Gizmo and maybe even Multani may agree with me here. It's that attitude of carring for only one's interests that bugs me.

Arhar:
"YES EVERYBODY IN ISRAEL IS SPENDING 24/7 JUST PLANNING HOW TO MURDER MORE ARABS!!! WHEN I LIVED IN ISRAEL, I WOULDN'T GO TO LUNCH UNTIL I SHOT AT LEAST ONE PALESTINIAN 7-YEAR OLD GIRL!!! MMMMM THAT FELT SO GOOD!!!"

See, Spiderman, how Arhar became enraged when I mentioned a statement like I did? It is a wrong statement that I mentioned, and I know it's not true, but...that's the attitude of Arhar and TomB themselves. The attitude of realizing the U.S. and the Isreali side, but not the Palestinian or other sides.

Arhar, the grief you show towards my statement is the same grief I can show for all your statements of carelessness towards the Palestinians who have died because of Isrealis. Funny, how you could clearly realize that not all Isrealis are to blame, but at the same time, fail to see that not all Palestinians are what they seem to be, and sadly, more Palistinians were murdered anyway, simply because the U.S. has chosen a side. Funny, how you realize the innocence of the United States citizens who were killed on 9-11, but not realize the innocence of the innocent Palistinians, Iraqis, and what have you that died. Further more, your living in Isreal is nothing of a matter. I have lived in the United States for 7 years now. I have had many, many, many bad experiences with "American" citizens; that does not mean all Americans are bad, and when speaking about the U.S. to my relatives and friends around the globe, I dare not mention only the bad parts. Even more, just because I was born, and lived for 11 years in Iraq, does not mean I will side with it on every issue, and it certainly does not mean that I know all the evil it may have done that I failed to see. Like wise, just because I'm an American citizen, does not mean I will side with the U.S. side on every issue. No, that's not the way it works...but is it not funny that you can accuse me and Gizmo of not knowing what we're talking about, when you, yourself, have a very strict attitude, one that seeks what you seek, one that fulfills only your beliefs and interests? Is this not the attitude I showed in one statement that got you so angery?

Frankly, I have had childish statements that were said by me only to satisfy my anger and ego, but the difference between you and me, is that such statements are rarely said by me. However, it has been your sole attitude from the beginning of the 9-11 deal, all the way to this point, in this very discussion. Personally, throughout all the readings of all the threads concerning this issue, I have never seen you nor TomB at least give justice to the people who died in other places. You only recognize the recent "tragedy," which I will not call a "tragedy" any more simply because I have experienced bigger tragedies in my life time, and in my opinion, although the death of 5000+ people is overwhelming, it is nowhere near as overwhelming and nightmare-bringing as the deaths of others all around the globe. The real tragedy is having people not realize that, or at least, not show any sign of carring for that fact. That is the tragedy...

 

[arhar]

So, in other words, you just posted that with a sole reason to make me mad. Good work, you succeded!!!

Of course, I do care about innocent citizens in other countries, and yes, I've said it before. But - I am honest enough to admit that I care about people who died here much, much more, because they are the people I've seen with my own eyes, people who live right here close to me, in my country, in my town, and it could've easily be me. As I've said before, when someone dies somewhere else, it's terrible, but I don't care too much.

And I fail to see how I posted the same things you just did all the time. If you accuse me of all these things, be at least a LITTLE bit more willing to see the other side yourself!!! All you say is "oh, you never even consider the other side!"... well, do YOU? I've never seen you post anything that you might be even CONSIDERING that Israelis are SOMEWHAT justified in that conflict... or that Arabs are SOMEWHAT wrong. Plus, I've never posted ridiculous things like "All US arabs and muslims are Bin Laden's cohorts..." You keep trying to make it look like you're a rational person, seeing all sides of argument, but every time you say "All Israelis care about is killing more palestininians" or "2400 Jews who worked in WOTC didn't come to work on 9/11" you let everybody have a glimpse at real Duke, full of bitterness and hatred towards Israelis.

 

[terzarima]

Oooh.... *ouch*

Come on guys, DÜke's a cool guy, and I'm not just going to blame one person for this entire argument (It was spidey). I'm sure no person can say emotion hasn't affected there posts one way or another, so no one persons opinion is better than (subliminal message: It was spidey) another, so you don't really need to attack any.

Aren't posts just different views on the topic (or offtopic)? Maybe DÜke is just paranoid, some people are like that, take a look at conspiracy theory. Or maybe he's naive or gullible (Highly doubtable.... it was spidey). Either way, don't attack people's character on this site, information or opinions presented by that person, but not that person directly.

Oh yeah, its all spideys fault.


*hides back in his corner* (They'll never find me here)

 

[DÛke]

...

Arhar: "So, in other words, you just posted that with a sole reason to make me mad."

Did I say that? If you have at least paid attention to what you're replying to, you would've known that I posted that message out of egotistical satisfaction. It was wrong of me, but I too can slip down into that level of completely stupidity.

Arhar: "And I fail to see how I posted the same things you just did all the time. If you accuse me of all these things, be at least a LITTLE bit more willing to see the other side yourself!!!"

Hmmm, again, if you have fully read what I had said, you'd know I didn't mean it the way you mean it. You say things with the notion that you care solely for the U.S. and Isreal. That's all you do. You want to prove me wrong, go a head. Additionally, you may want to consult Spiderman or even Ura about me "seeing the other side." They'll tell you, I do see the other side. I've negotiated the other side. Heck, in one post, I even *justified* the other side, except that I justified every other side too. Spiderman himself saw that as an open-minded argument coming from me. Therefore, I have done my duty of considering "the other side."

Arhar: "I've never seen you post anything that you might be even CONSIDERING that Israelis are SOMEWHAT justified in that conflict... or that Arabs are SOMEWHAT wrong."

Again, if you *just* have read what you're replying to, that very same post you replied to, you'd see exactly what I said, which was

"I have lived in the United States for 7 years now. I have had many, many, many bad experiences with 'American' citizens; that does not mean all Americans are bad, and when speaking about the U.S. to my relatives and friends around the globe, I dare not mention only the bad parts. Even more, just because I was born, and lived for 11 years in Iraq, does not mean I will side with it on every issue, and it certainly does not mean that I know all the evil it may have done that I failed to see."

Funny, how you missed that part, eh? What you don't understand is that I'm not like you at all. I'm *not* siding with anyone. I'm not siding with Isreal, not with the U.S., not with Iraq, not with Afganistan, not with anyone. However, I am speaking what I feel is right from my complex personal experience and my with-sweat-earned knowledge. It is not my fault that my experience or the knowledge I have obtained have lead me to where I stand today.

Arhar: "You keep trying to make it look like you're a rational person, seeing all sides of argument, but every time you say "All Israelis care about is killing more palestininians" or "2400 Jews who worked in WOTC didn't come to work on 9/11" you let everybody have a glimpse at real Duke, full of bitterness and hatred towards Israelis."

Correction, I *am* a rational person. From the other conversations I've had with many CPA and MTGnews members, they all can tell you, I am a rational person. And about the "real Duke, full of bitterness and hatred towards Israelis," heh, now why on earth would I hate Israelis? I have never been to Israel, and I never have met an Isreali in person. Additionally, almost any member can tell you, that when I have something on my mind, I will shout it out so you can hear it loud and clear. If I hate Isrealis, I would be very delighted to admit it, just like I once admitted to Almindhra on AIM that I hate each and every ignorant American who comes up to me and tries to make fun of me without even knowing my background, and the world I have lived in. They attempt feeble tries on making me look bad simply because I look different, but I don't care. I made some of them cry just by pointing out "few" intelligent things that "mattered most." See, I'm not afraid to admit what I feel...and past threads should prove that and make it obvious to everyone and anyone.

Please, consider reading my posts more clearly from now on, but I understand that you're in a state of some anger right now; when my relatives got bombed, and 2 killed, I was too.

And Ademis, you're right...I *am* a cool guy. A *very*, *very*, *very* hip guy...once you get to know me, that is.

 

[arhar]

Actually, I DID read the whole thread, and then posted my previous message. So the most part of your post saying "If you'd read the whole thread, you'd know that I don't...... "... yes, I did read the whole thread. And no, I still don't see anywhere where you're not being completely one-dimensional in this matter.

And as for you being a rational person... WELLLLL... I also came from MTGNews, and if I remember correctly, you managed to had a fight with almost everyone there, and even with a few people in here (the friendliest place on the 'net, hands down). So I wouldn't talk about that. And I wouldn't even go into "why would I hate Israel deal", for obvious reasons.

 

[DÛke]

...

Arhar:
Actually, I DID read the whole thread, and then posted my previous message. So the most part of your post saying "If you'd read the whole thread, you'd know that I don't...... "... yes, I did read the whole thread. And no, I still don't see anywhere where you're not being completely one-dimensional in this
matter.

You've read the whole thread and you don't see where I'm being open-minded and rational? You impress me with your accusations sometimes...

Here are just few multi-dimensional things said by me in this thread:

Things the poor guy, the sex beast, has said in this thread:

***To Daggertooth: As LONG as you understand this, than my duty is done with you anyway. As long as you've asked why and gotten the answer, than you deserve my respect. Much respect for you...


***To Daggertooth: Well, as long as you have told me what YOU think, and what you think is backed by some actual facts, because what you think is exactly what I think...and I have the facts. Of course, it's just a bit deeper than that, but you do have understanding...I've read a lot...so what your saying is basically a summery...

***To Ura: Good job Ura. Seriously. Another person I agree with.

***To Daggertooth: I'm not with the Afganistani gorvernment. Period. I'm not with any one side. According to my studies Taliban and bin Ladin are the creation of the United States. I dislike them all. I think bin Ladin and his crew should be brought to justice, in a just manner

***To Multani: I must agree with Multani here. I'm open minded enough so that when an open minded person tells me that I'm closed minded, I can take it.

***To TomB: This is the first time ever I agree with you TomB. I agree with you that the U.S. has "exercised tremendous restrainted by not blaming all of Afganistan,"

***Just talking: This is not about the United States or any other country; it's about understanding that these things happened for a reason. I'm not so angery on the U.S. because I completely understand the problems the government must be going through on making decisions, but the general public must understand why 9/11 happened, and must understand what the U.S. is retaliating. The 9/11 case didn't just come out of thin air, in fact, it was predicted. It was bound to happen, sooner, or later...simply because the logic of it, people lost their lives in the Arabian socities, and friends and relatives had to avenge in one way or another. What happened on 9/11 is justified. The U.S. killing innocent civilians now is justified too: first, it's indriect (let's hope it isn't, at least), and it's for the cause of retaliation. I lost members myself, and I still think retaliation is wrong, but I'm not going to lie and say "I didn't expect it." People are so angery, and anger is justified by human nature. Just like the U.S. citizens are angery, the Arabs are angery...there's nothing wrong with that...

***Just talking: I would be very stupid and closed minded if I only justify the Taliban side, or if I only justify the U.S. side. I think both sides have done what was to be done. There's was nothing really unusual...

How you managed to miss all these is beyond me, but hey, I understand.

In fact, how did you manage to miss *this*, which was said only few posts away?

More things Arhar missed:

I'm not like you at all. I'm *not* siding with anyone. I'm not siding with Isreal, not with the U.S., not with Iraq, not with Afganistan, not with anyone. However, I am speaking what I feel is right from my complex personal experience and my with-sweat-earned knowledge. It is not my fault that my experience or the knowledge I have obtained have lead me to where I stand today.

If the above is not mutli-dimensional, then I suggest you show me some of *your* multi-dimensional way of thought from the previous posts...

Arhar:
And as for you being a rational person... WELLLLL... I also came from MTGNews, and if I remember correctly, you managed to had a fight with almost everyone there, and even with a few people in here (the friendliest place on the 'net, hands down). So I wouldn't talk about that...

<claps> Wow, you know my internet history pretty well; *just* like...everybody else. I hope you at least know the reason behind my "fights." Like I said before in this thread, which you probably missed, I point things out -- things that people don't like to be pointed out. Bad deck? Yes, I'll tell you to your face. Ugly pic? I'll tell you without hesitation. Acting stupid? I'll be very happy to inform you. Most of the fights I had were because I pointed some things out. That's it. Others were because I stepped low into the level of stupidity of other people, so a fight started. Good or bad...that's moi the dogma, Mr. Arhar. And yes, the CPA is a friendly place, the only thing is, Gizmo recived a virus in his email as a lashback for stating his opinion, and I myself have recieved a "hate" email when the member "Zero," was active. Other than that, yes, I think it is a friendly place...

Arhar:
And I wouldn't even go into "why would I hate Israel deal", for obvious reasons.

Maybe I've had too much LSD, but your obvious reasons are too much of an enigma for me at this time, so could please state those reasons?

I say I don't hate Israelis. If you're challenging my stream of thoughts and beliefs, then you need a huge, huge, huge back-up...Mr. Arhar...

 

[TomB]

I too, as with arhar, have never pretended to care as much about the victims of violence abroad as much as I care about the ones slain in my own country. If that makes me less worldly than you, Gizmo, then I reckon I'm less worldly than you, but either way, in this place, my opinion counts for as much as yours does...

That seems to irritate you though, doesn't it?

Too bad


DÛke:

TomB:
I've also never claimed to speak for the masses DÛke, so please stop being so melodramatic.

Um, what do you call this:

TomB:
Actually, DÛke, we don't really care about those buildings. It's the 5000+ innocent lives that were lost that day that piss us off...

?

"We," as in...not just I, but "we."

Actually, DÛke, the we refers to the people I know IRL. I guess I should have clarified that when I made the statement, but then, I wasn't really thinking you'd be ready to nominate me for the position of spokesperson for the whole world...

I decline, but thanks for the vote of confidence...

As for your other points, DÛke, I don't really want to dissect them any further. You've resorted to taking statements you've made out of context, kinda' like the rest of us to to each other, but different because you're then using them to portray yourself in a better light.

More power to ya'...

I know what arhar is getting at though, and while I think you do try to see all sides I think there's some deep seeded resentment you still feel, not only towards the Israelis but also toward the US for causing your family's flight from Iraq.

At least, that's my opinion...

 

[Spiderman]

I wanna thwip ademis to the wall...

Next, DUke, I think I see what you're saying about everyone (generally speaking) being on the US and Israeli side (or the perceived 'good' side) and no one speaking for the Palestinians. However, it seems that the militant Palestinians/Hamas are the ones who , most of the time, have been provoking the Israelis in the last 20 years or so. I don't think there's EVER been a case of a suicide Israeli. Lone gunman, yes though. That's why I wanted to see a rough timeline of events (and Ura helped with his links). I agree that it does suck that the Israelis choose to invade at times and of course innocent Palestinians get caught up in the crossfires. However, I hypothesize that if the militants and Hamas CEASE all activity against the state of Isreal, there would actually be peace; no Israeli is going to start something.

Also, I would hesitate to include this quote in your examples of "multi-dimensional (does that mean open-mindness here?)

***To Daggertooth: Well, as long as you have told me what YOU think, and what you think is backed by some actual facts, because what you think is exactly what I think...and I have the facts. Of course, it's just a bit deeper than that, but you do have understanding...I've read a lot...so what your saying is basically a summery...

THIS is the part that I remembered from a while back. Agreeing with someone whose views coincide and might validate your own isn't really being open-minded, it's just finding a "yes-man" (to use a cliche). The others are okay though.

 

[DÛke]

...

TomB:

I know what arhar is getting at though, and while I think you do try to see all sides I think there's some deep seeded resentment you still feel, not only towards the Israelis but also toward the US for causing your family's flight from Iraq.

Ah, do I have to say it again?

Of course I still feel some "resentment," it's very natural. However, coming to the United States is one of the best things that could have happened to me. Period. I can't ever regret it. What...if I just can see what I'm doing here versus what I would be doing in Iraq, I would completely cry! I can't even *live* in Iraq any more, since I've seen all the wonderful things the United States offer here. Example, I'm into music. It would be my last dream to obtain all the musical technology I obtained here in Iraq...I probably can, but...it wouldn't be as easy as...go to Best Buy or Amazon.Com and order whatever you wish. That's why I plan to live here for a long time, or at least in Canada. I love the United States...

...but again...I can't side with it on every issue. My willing to discuss the issue alone should show you that I'm a good citizen, simply because I have something to say. Hey, there are people out there that don't even vote...that practically have no saying, no opinion at all. I should at least get some respect for willing to share my opinion...

Even more, suppose you did not know I'm from Iraq, you wouldn't be saying any of the things you're saying right now...you'd just pretend that I'm an American who likes to discuss things. That's all; you'd percieve me like you percieve Spiderman, in which he argues not in any side, but on the "right side," whatever that maybe. Since you know I'm not a local American, you can use it to justify my behaviour or use it against me by saying things like:

I know what arhar is getting at though, and while I think you do try to see all sides I think there's some deep seeded resentment you still feel, not only towards the Israelis but also toward the US for causing your family's flight from Iraq

...and...

Arhar:

And I wouldn't even go into "why would I hate Israel deal", for obvious reasons.

The simple fact is, if I had anything against any country, I would admit it. I can see why you think I somewhat dislike the United States, but the truth is completely the opposite -- that's because I'm discussing the American government, and frankly, I don't value the American government, nor any other government in this case. About the Israelis, like I said, I don't know them, I don't know their country, or their government, so I have no reason to hate them, and I really cannot see why you might think I hate them.

Question: do you think I dislike all the countries/people I'm arguing against? If you do, than you really should reconsider your judgement. Arguing against is nothing like disliking. Just because me and Spiderman argued against each other in this thread, and it was a pretty bada$* argument too, doesn't mean I dislike him. Just an example.

TomB, I think you should really read my quotes. I have not in anyway taken them out of context. I don't need to prove to anyone that I'm a rational person, but when a strong judgement, such as that of Arhar's, is made towards me, than I really must use my counterability.

Spiderman:

However, it seems that the militant Palestinians/Hamas are the ones who , most of the time, have been provoking the Israelis in the last 20 years or so. I don't think there's EVER been a case of a suicide Israeli.

Of course not! Why would they use suicidal tactics when they've got American-made weapons all over the place? I mean, they've got everything...it's only rational to use weapons in their case. The Palestinians use suicide because they're not supported by a strong government. Example, you'll never see an American using suicide tactics, simply because the United States offers plenty of other options. You will see Iraqis, Palestinians, Afganis, Pakis...etc..using those tactics as a hit-back because they've got nothing. Besides, when you compare the deaths on the Palestini side versus the deaths on the Isreali side, you'd quickly notice that Isreal is really the more aggressive one. It doesn't matter who started in this case, because the only people whom are getting hurt are the innocent people...if you wanna fight, fight the government, don't fight the people. Killing those people, as we all hopefully know, has not solved a thing...all it did it take out few innocent lives that had *nothing* to do with anything; just people trying to live their daily lives like you and I. I know in a war there are casualities, but..that "war" has been going on for too long now, and murdering those people, obviously, is not helping at all...

Spiderman:

THIS is the part that I remembered from a while back. Agreeing with someone whose views coincide and might validate your own isn't really being open-minded, it's just finding a "yes-man" (to use a cliche). The others are okay though.

Yes, I agree. However, I added that quote for one reason: that Arhar thanked you and Daggertooth for arguing his side. As I stated before, I never disagreed with Daggertooth, and Arhar agrees with Daggertooth, wouldn't that mean me and Arhar would agree with each other? Nope...however, him and me both agree with Daggertooth, and my agreeing with him means that I'm not mono-dimensional simply because I agreed with what Arhar agreed upon.

No offense or anything, Arhar, but if you'd like to discuss mono-dimension, than I really would like to see some examples from you...even if they're not from this thread, but concerning this issue. You've been making jokes and lamenting.

Tell me, if you strongly believe that you only care about those who are closest to you, why was this thread started then? It was started becasuse Christians far away, in Afganistan were killed. Why did you bother to start this thread? You don't know these Christians, they're not in the U.S., and they're nowhere near here. What this enables me think is that you truely care about only Christians and Americans around the globe...

Sure, you may care about everyone around the globe, but you bother enough to start a thread over Americans and Christians from around the globe, people you don't know that are not living under these skies.

...is that not the mono-dimension you're accusing me of? In return, is that not complete hypocrisy?

 

[Spiderman]

Even more, suppose you did not know I'm from Iraq, you wouldn't be saying any of the things you're saying right now...you'd just pretend that I'm an American who likes to discuss things. That's all; you'd percieve me like you percieve Spiderman, in which he argues not in any side, but on the "right side," whatever that maybe.

Actually, I don't. I just rebutted arhar's statement above that the Israeli's have never started a war. What I DO argue is what seems like misinformation or lack thereof and statements based on them.

Just because me and Spiderman argued against each other in this thread, and it was a pretty bada$* argument too, doesn't mean I dislike him.

It only got bad because I perceived you as ignoring my statements and arguments when I thought I deserved better than that, seeing how we get along on most other things.

Of course not! Why would they use suicidal tactics when they've got American-made weapons all over the place? I mean, they've got everything...it's only rational to use weapons in their case.

That's not exactly valid; where are the militants getting their explosives or guns from? Probably Syria, who gets them from... who knows where. Each side has its own access to arms. True, the Palestinians don't have tanks but the Hamas DO have rocket grenade launchers and such.

Besides, when you compare the deaths on the Palestini side versus the deaths on the Isreali side, you'd quickly notice that Isreal is really the more aggressive one

Again, that really only because the Israeli weaponry is far more effective. Let me repeat: if the Hamas and other militant Palestinians stop ALL aggressions, would there be problems there? I seriously doubt it. Hence, I hypothesize the fault is more on their side as the aggressors.

However, I added that quote for one reason: that Arhar thanked you and Daggertooth for arguing his side.

That's not clear from the intro statement to the quotes. All you say there is

Here are just few multi-dimensional things said by me in this thread

Tell me, if you strongly believe that you only care about those who are closest to you, why was this thread started then? It was started becasuse Christians far away, in Afganistan were killed. Why did you bother to start this thread? You don't know these Christians, they're not in the U.S., and they're nowhere near here. What this enables me think is that you truely care about only Christians and Americans around the globe...

Sure, you may care about everyone around the globe, but you bother enough to start a thread over Americans and Christians from around the globe, people you don't know that are not living under these skies.

This is actually a good point. This is why I don't raise a lot of issues I see in the paper; well kinda why, this isn't really a political board so posting every and all isssue that comes down seems dumb.

 

[DÛke]

...

*The* point is, Spiderman, I'm not mono-d like dear Mr. Arhar claims...

I have shown my side of the argument; if anyone attempts to prove that I'm a closed-minded, one-sided SoB, than please assume the right position, recall my thoughts and outbursts, and proceed with caution and a strictly orderly fashion.

Thank you.

 

[arhar]

Originally posted by DÛke

I love the United States...

Good for you. Me too. At least we agree on something.

...but again...I can't side with it on every issue.

Hehehe, neither can I. If I start naming things that are wrong in the US, we'd be in for a LOOOONG discussion. For example, I STRONGLY disagree with US on affirmative action.

Arhar:The simple fact is, if I had anything against any country, I would admit it. I can see why you think I somewhat dislike the United States, but the truth is completely the opposite -- that's because I'm discussing the American government, and frankly, I don't value the American government, nor any other government in this case. About the Israelis, like I said, I don't know them, I don't know their country, or their government, so I have no reason to hate them, and I really cannot see why you might think I hate them.

Question: do you think I dislike all the countries/people I'm arguing against? If you do, than you really should reconsider your judgement. Arguing against is nothing like disliking. Just because me and Spiderman argued against each other in this thread, and it was a pretty bada$* argument too, doesn't mean I dislike him. Just an example.

I'd really like to believe your words. But sometimes you give me no choice but believe in the opposite.

Spiderman: Of course not! Why would they use suicidal tactics when they've got American-made weapons all over the place? I mean, they've got everything...it's only rational to use weapons in their case. The Palestinians use suicide because they're not supported by a strong government. Example, you'll never see an American using suicide tactics, simply because the United States offers plenty of other options. You will see Iraqis, Palestinians, Afganis, Pakis...etc..using those tactics as a hit-back because they've got nothing.

I'm sorry, but that's not true. You just don't know history. For a longest time, they were supported by a government that just as strong and powerful as the US - Soviet Union.. And you can't really make an argument that "well, SU is no more for 10 years already"... because the suicide attacks and the rest started way before that.

Besides, when you compare the deaths on the Palestini side versus the deaths on the Isreali side, you'd quickly notice that Isreal is really the more aggressive one. It doesn't matter who started in this case, because the only people whom are getting hurt are the innocent people...

So what you're saying is it doesn't matter who the agressor is, the only thing that matters is whose side has lost more casualties? I'm sorry, that's not how it works. When one side starts firing, the other is going to fight back.

...if you wanna fight, fight the government, don't fight the people.

I think that's kinda hard to do, considering the terrorists don't have a government per se.

Spiderman:Yes, I agree. However, I added that quote for one reason: that Arhar thanked you and Daggertooth for arguing his side. As I stated before, I never disagreed with Daggertooth, and Arhar agrees with Daggertooth, wouldn't that mean me and Arhar would agree with each other? Nope...however, him and me both agree with Daggertooth, and my agreeing with him means that I'm not mono-dimensional simply because I agreed with what Arhar agreed upon.

That's taking my words out of the context. I thanked Spiderman and Daggertooth for having an opinion close to mine, because they posted things I would've posted if I didn't feel so tired of this argument to participate....

No offense or anything, Arhar, but if you'd like to discuss mono-dimension, than I really would like to see some examples from you...even if they're not from this thread, but concerning this issue. You've been making jokes and lamenting.

Tell me, if you strongly believe that you only care about those who are closest to you, why was this thread started then? It was started becasuse Christians far away, in Afganistan were killed. Why did you bother to start this thread? You don't know these Christians, they're not in the U.S., and they're nowhere near here. What this enables me think is that you truely care about only Christians and Americans around the globe...
Sure, you may care about everyone around the globe, but you bother enough to start a thread over Americans and Christians from around the globe, people you don't know that are not living under these skies.
...is that not the mono-dimension you're accusing me of? In return, is that not complete hypocrisy?

That's really funny, because guess what - I'M NOT CHRISTIAN! I'm Jewish. And if I was mono-dimensional, I would hate all Christians with passion for persecuting, torturing and killing Jews for thousands of years... but I don't, as evident by the first post of this thread.

And for the thousandth time: I never said "I don't care for people dying all over the globe. All I care about is people dying in my hometown." All I said was it's a natural reaction for me to care MORE about people dying in my backyard than in New Zealand.

 

[DÛke]

...

Arhar

I'd really like to believe your words. But sometimes you give me no choice but believe in the opposite.

That's complete child's play. What is that supposed to mean? I could say the same thing about you too, without backing it up or anything. Heck, anybody could say that. Well, believe what you want to believe, but hey, like my signature says, only ask if you're willing to listen...

I'm sorry, but that's not true. You just don't know history...

It doesn't matter that I don't know history at all; you already declared me and Gizmo as people that don't know what their talking about...

So what you're saying is it doesn't matter who the agressor is, the only thing that matters is whose side has lost more casualties? I'm sorry, that's not how it works. When one side starts firing, the other is going to fight back.

So stop complaining about 5000+ dead Americans, and some Christians who died in Afghanistan...

And for the thousandth time: I never said "I don't care for people dying all over the globe. All I care about is people dying in my hometown." All I said was it's a natural reaction for me to care MORE about people dying in my backyard than in New Zealand.

Um, and I suppose those who died in Afghanistan were in your backyard for some reason? Wow, how big is your house anyway --seeing how its backyard extends all the way to Afghanistan. Well, what bothers me is that you carred about the Christians who died in Afghanistan, and at the same time, you didn't even mention how terrible it was for the innocent Afghanis to die -- hey, they're both in the same backyard...but you've chosen a side, it seems.

That's really funny, because guess what - I'M NOT CHRISTIAN! I'm Jewish. And if I was mono-dimensional, I would hate all Christians with passion for persecuting, torturing and killing Jews for thousands of years... but I don't, as evident by the first post of this thread.

As evident by the first post of this thread, you carred only for the dying Christians and only those, while at the same time there were Afghanis dying. Yup, that's multi-dimension, the Arhar way. Besides, you seem to be *insisting* that I dislike Jews and even giving the notion that I dislike Americans; you say things like "I'd really like to believe your words," and "good for you," and all that. You give me the feeling that I have to almost prove to you that I have nothing against Americans or Israelis, well...sorry, but I can't prove it. Hey, since we're at it, and you seem to like to insist upon my character, do you think (or want to insist) that I maybe a possible terrorist even? Well, think what you want to think, seeing how no matter how much I say that I have nothing against someone, you insist that I do; almost like putting words in my mouth...

We both have experienced "other" worlds, but it seems that you think your experience is much more valid than mine. I'm sorry you feel that way.

Hey, *prove* that you love the United States...go on, I dare you...

Prove to me that you yourself have nothing against Muslims...

Go on...get crackin'...