Christians massacred in Pakistan

[arhar]

Originally posted by DÛke
...
So stop complaining about 5000+ dead Americans, and some Christians who died in Afghanistan...

Errr... so I guess by this you're insinuating that Americans were the agressors? I hope not, because that's most definitely not the case!

Um, and I suppose those who died in Afghanistan were in your backyard for some reason? Wow, how big is your house anyway --seeing how its backyard extends all the way to Afghanistan. Well, what bothers me is that you carred about the Christians who died in Afghanistan, and at the same time, you didn't even mention how terrible it was for the innocent Afghanis to die -- hey, they're both in the same backyard...but you've chosen a side, it seems.

It's getting quite tiresome to repeat the same thing over and over again... Ok, for the 1001st time now, here goes, with little additions that I thought were self-evident but I guess not:

......I never said "I don't care for people dying all over the globe.
All I care about is people dying in my hometown." All I said was it's a natural reaction for me to care MORE about people dying in my backyard than in New Zealand. BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN I COMPLETELY DON'T CARE ABOUT PEOPLE IN NEW ZEALAND!!!!

Get it now? If still not, I don't know what to tell you....

As evident by the first post of this thread, you carred only for the dying Christians and only those, while at the same time there were Afghanis dying. Yup, that's multi-dimension, the Arhar way. Besides, you seem to be *insisting* that I dislike Jews and even giving the notion that I dislike Americans; you say things like "I'd really like to believe your words," and "good for you," and all that.

Whoooooosh. That was the sound my point made while flying high over your head. I thought it was self-evident by the lack of
's and other smilies, but when I said "Good for you", I meant "I'm seriously happy to hear that, and that's not meant to be sarcastic comment, otherwise I would've indicated the latter by using a or something like that"

You give me the feeling that I have to almost prove to you that I have nothing against Americans or Israelis, well...sorry, but I can't prove it. Hey, since we're at it, and you seem to like to insist upon my character, do you think (or want to insist) that I maybe a possible terrorist even?

I don't know, you tell me, are you? I hope not!

Well, think what you want to think, seeing how no matter how much I say that I have nothing against someone, you insist that I do; almost like putting words in my mouth...
We both have experienced "other" worlds, but it seems that you think your experience is much more valid than mine. I'm sorry you feel that way.

Hey, *prove* that you love the United States...go on, I dare you...

Prove to me that you yourself have nothing against Muslims...

Go on...get crackin'...

*sigh*
Again, you missed it. You don't have to prove anything - how can one prove something over the internet, where no one can DO anything, just talk? What I'm trying to accomplish is for you to stop posting ridiculous things and regard them as "facts"... that's all. Is that so hard?

 

[DÛke]

...

Ahhh...

Arhar:

It's getting quite tiresome to repeat the same thing over and over again... Ok, for the 1001st time now, here goes, with little additions that I thought were self-evident but I guess not:

......I never said "I don't care for people dying all over the globe.
All I care about is people dying in my hometown." All I said was it's a natural reaction for me to care MORE about people dying in my backyard than in New Zealand. BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN I COMPLETELY DON'T CARE ABOUT PEOPLE IN NEW ZEALAND!!!!

Ok, so let me get this straight: you care about people, but it is a natural reaction that you only care to those whom are in your "backyard." Ok, then, you still have not answered my question: how come you carred for ONLY Christians when at the same time Afghanis were dying?

Do you not understand the words I'm speaking!? I just said millions of times: you started a thread in which you lamented the death of Christians who were killed in Afghanistan. Ok, I understand. If you were so carring, why did you care about those Christians, who died far away from you, but at the same time, not care about the Afghanis who died in the same place? What's so hard about understading this question?

Please, don't re-explain your answer for the 1002 time, that's not what I'm looking for.

I don't know, you tell me, are you? I hope not!

No, *you* tell me, since you seem to insist that I dislike Israelis when I have clearly made my point and said that I don't. Might as well answer this simple questions, eh?

Again, you missed it. You don't have to prove anything - how can one prove something over the internet, where no one can DO anything, just talk? What I'm trying to accomplish is for you to stop posting ridiculous things and regard them as "facts"... that's all. Is that so hard?

Well, than why do you insist that I dislike Israelis, and giving me hints that you maybe thinking that I even dislike Americans? I don't know about you, but when I have to, I try to prove my point...but since like you mentioned, we're over the internet, I can't...so I asked you to prove your position in order to show you that if you are going to insist upon something that I can clearly not prove, than I think you should either stop insisting, or at least give me a chance for once.

I said it before: I don't dislike Israelis. What's so hard about *that*!?

What I say is ridiculous to you. That's all. Maybe few others. I'm not going to stop posting because you alone think what I say is "ridiculous." Heh, that's not the way it functions around here.

Don't try to stop me from saying things. Don't try to change Gizmo. Please. I think doing that is extreamly ridiculous.

One more thing, do you always accuse those who you disagree with as not knowing of what they're speaking about, or having ridiculous thoughts? I don't think that's right.

I disagree with you 307%, that doesn't mean I think you opinions are "ridiculous," simply because they're opinions, that's all. Heh...

I think you need to take a break. Likewise for me...and please don't hold a grudge over me for times to come, I'm not trying to offend you in any way...

I hope this is just a discussion.

 

[terzarima]

More of a two sided debate

*Runs away from no-man's land (this conversation)....*

 

[Griffith_se]

Originally posted by Gizmo
Are you allowed to not say the Pledge Of Allegiance? I mean, if you wanted could you just stand there and stick your middle finger up at the flag if you wanted to?

This is a serious question, Ive no idea how the US system works. But if you cant do that, then I think that is a very bad way of doing it.

I came across this picture, and immediately recalled
the question you posed.
Don't know if anyone replied or not, so here ya go.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/gallery/terr1010/pledge.jpg

But I don't think holding up the middle finger
would be acceptable in any case.

 

[Spiderman]

Before 9/11, I know a Virginia school district was debating whether to include the Pledge as part of beginning the school day (I think with input from the students). I'm sure there were plenty of these in other parts of the US.

 

[TomB]

Originally posted by DÛke
...

The case with TomB is, he gets "pissed off" when others seem to defend the rights of the world or their countries. It's not like any of us has truely said some offensive things...

Oh, yeah, and DÛke? That's the other side of the free speech coin you don't seem to realize exists - While I will defend your right to say what's on your mind with my life I also reserve the right to find fault with it, and rebut it whenever I feel like it.

It's the American way!

I do have to tell you something though - if you don't honestly see how others could take offense at some of the nastier things you've said on this subject, well, DÛke, then there's absolutely nothing I could point out to you that would make you understand.

'nuff said, methinks...

 

[DÛke]

...TomB, mostly, it's the same people who take offense whenever I say *anything.* It doesn't really matter. I know when I'm wrong when Zadok, for example, takes offense. I know I'm wrong, for example, when Spiderman takes offense. I know I'm wrong, for example, when Ura takes offense. I know I'm wrong, when Multani takes offense. Those are people who don't actually agree with me on everything, but are, the way I see it, open-minded.

The others, like Almindhra and you, for example, TomB...have taken offense of mostly everything I've said in the CPA. The history shows it...so why should I even consider your side of the story in the first place, when, I know that until I agree with you 307%, you'll always be taking offense? 'nuff said, methinks... (Happy happy, joy joy!)

I think you are an American extreamist, but I don't think Spiderman is, and he disagreed with me *so much.* I simply think he's a more open-minded person than you are, and is willing to at least see and maybe understand my side of the story. I don't really get-pissed off when someone disagrees with me, especially if I know that the person is open-minded from other discussions -- I do however get "pissed off" when an extreamist comes in and tries to influence his or her opinion above mine without giving any reasoning behind his or her decisions.

Like I said before, I've been open-minded althroughout discussions involving this issue, and Spiderman even agreed. It's just that on this issue, I've went over the edge, and "offended" people, those people being you, Arhar, and probably Almindhra -- note that you and Almindhra are offended by my simple presence...so this new offense I executed shouldn't come as a shock to anyone.

On this issue, the difference between you and me is *not* that we disagree: but that I respect the other's opinions, and you don't -- seeing from your infantile reactions to Gizmo and I.

Understanding *is* the key...*That* *is* *the* way of all.

 

[Gizmo]

I have to say Duke, I`m not happy with the way everything you say has my name attached to it.
There are a whole number of things you have said which I 307% disagree with. And for someone who agrees 307% with everything you sure do get into a lot of arguments.


I`m fairly sure I`m:
Anti-Taliban
Anti-Northern Alliance
Anti-Ideology
Anti-Religion
Anti-Patriotism

but equallly:

Pro-Compromise
Pro-Realpolitik

If I stand for anything its for rationality over emotionality.
You can stand there and curse my green Vulcan blood if you like.

I also object to the way in which some distinctly unpleasant people and groups have used the tragedy to gain the moral high ground and try to tell people what is and is not right. There are a large number of people who have gained an awful lot from the 9/11 attack, and most of them are in the White House. George Bush was going to go down in history as the illegitimate (and possibly illiterate) President until 9/11.

Oh, and Spidey said he wanted to hear a joke? Or at least, didnt mind...
I chuckled at these. There are a whole load that involve people jumping out of windows which I find a little less funny. I dunno why, I think its just that as I tell the joke I see someone throw themselves to their death and I dont feel like laughing. Somehow the images of the crash and the collapse dont illicit a similar emotional response.

Q. Did you know McDonalds are getting involved in rebuilding the World Trade Centre?
A. They want to install a Fly-Thru restaurant.

Q. Why did the maid at the WTC get sacked?
A. She left the landing lights on.

Q. KFC are launching a new commemorative meal for what happened in New York.
A. You get a Flaming Tower Burger and a Big Apple Crumble.

 

[DÛke]

...Gizmo, I mention your name quite much to remind TomB, and also give an example, on how he has treated other opinions that he does not agree with.

I'm not trying to take your words out of context or anything, as you know, some people have already done that.

I'm simply using the way some individuals disagree as another example.

Hey, I think when someone disagrees with another, at least keep it modern and pleasant. It doesn't have to be childish.

...And I *don't* agree with everything, but I do keep an open-mind to everything. I disagreed with Spiderman a whole lot -- you don't see us keeping it up -- the time has passed. Time to move on. If TomB wants to insist upon this issue, which I've let go of, than he's more than welcomed, because there are so many holes that I have not covered which I'm trying to ignore, to avoid more arguments.

I'm 307% sure I'm anti-government. Period. I don't like governments. I think they endanger the innocent citizens of their countries. Just look at the U.S.: 5000+ died because of the government. Look at Iraq. People are suffereing there simply because of the government.

Yup. I'm 307% anti-government. *All* governments.

 

[Spiderman]

So do you think people ought to just govern themselves as individuals?

 

[Gizmo]

Anti-government is anarchy.
We evolved past that several thousand years ago.

 

[DÛke]

...

I'm anti-government in that I think governments really do endanger the human life, because *all* governments seek self-interest, therefore are greedy and selfish. Because of that, we have wars. I don't think there was any war that wasn't somewhat backed by self interest be it about oil or whatever...

I don't care if it's "Anarchy" or whatever you wanna call it.

I don't think people should "govern themselves," because that will not work. The thing is, I think nothing works at all. There's no true government that makes complete moral decisions. Non whatsoever. Therefore, as long as humanity is going to exist, we will always and forever have suffering and death...there's no civilized place on earth that you can live with complete peace of mind. It's all one big hell hole...and governments are partly and majorly are responsible for replenishing this hell hole.

Agree or disagree, that's the truth. The Iraqi citizens are suffering because of UN sanctions, Sadam's arrogance, and the United States: all government figures. 5000+ citizens died on 9/11 simply because some people in the Middle East want the U.S. to stop interfering in Middle Easter soil: all are government issues. The Israel and Palistaine are suffering and struggling constantly because of the government.

The government itself is not being hurt as much as its citizens, and history proves that. The governments act upon greedy self-concepts and insticts, therefore, we get to suffer.

Anarchy or not, that's my theory which I strongly believe in.

 

[Spiderman]

I would hazard to guess it is because people generally look out for themselves (in the long run). Obviously you have your exceptions like people jumping on grenades to save the company and whatnot, but people usually want to better their lot in life, usually at the expense of others.

What would happen if mankind was given a greater lifespan? Say 500 years instead of 80-100? Would he be more prone into "thinking ahead", because he has to live with his consequences? Would he realize that war and death is not preferable because of the potential to "do more stuff" and not risk having life cut short?

 

[Gizmo]

Not while there are religions that claim the physical life is a transitory step and that you can achieve eternal happiness by persecuting others.

And more importantly not while there are limited resources to fight for. I think the past fifty years will prove to be largely the most peaceful in the history of humanity. We stand on the edge of a terrible abyss because our consumption is rapidly expanding and the resources (land, food, fuel) are rapidly declining. This century will see wars of survival and extermination.

 

[terzarima]

I would love to say that Gizmo is wrong, but I'm afriad that his prediction is an going to be an actuallity.

Face it, eventually everyone will get pissed off with the united states for using their resources, and team up on them. Then Canada will go, because we have no military, but lotso natural resources... and so on...

Dog eat dog...

 

[Zadok001]

Either that, or someone bothers to convince the US to convert to nuclear like we probably should have a long time ago... That might slow down the inevitable.

 

[arhar]

Duke, just because my feelings are very strong on the 9/11 issue, it doesn't mean I harbor hatred and resentment towards you, and it doesn't mean I disagree with everything you say. Let me remind of what I said in the beginningof this thread....

Originally posted by arhar
Duke, calm down, jeez. It's ok. You're not in "1984." Looks to me like you're having a nervous breakdown. Why don't you come over to Brooklyn, we'll have a few beers and forget about this whole deal.

 

[DÛke]

...

Spiderman, I know I was heading into philosophy, but everything is related to another anyway. I also understand what you're saying. I must say, I have met many great people in my life that are actually *willing* to risk their lives for others to survive.

I know that in humanity, now or eventually, the path of survival of the fittest will be taken. It's impossible for us all to live in this little planet. The strong *will* survive, and the weak will perish.

I am with the weak, and I'm proud of it. I rather die than live a life where I regret living. I truely do. I rather die than see the weak die. I don't want to live in a "strong" country that can make me feel safe on the cost of others. I'm thankful deep down inside, but I'm ashamed in the outside that I dare to even live a happy life while my friends and relatives are suffering or have suffered in the past and now.

I asked my mom if I can go back to Iraq if the United States begins war there, and she said she would never let me go back there...until Sadam has been removed out of office, and until an actual, stable government is established. I, on my own, would more than love to go there and suffer...

...<laughs> and I hope there is really a God...I still have *some* faded faith within me. I just prey and hope there really is a spirit out there that is watching every step we make a long the way. I hope we all will be judged by our actions in this life, and I hope we will be rewarded in another life (or something) because living this life is unfair. Just thinking about it is unfair and unsettling for the mind...

 

[Spiderman]

Gizmo:

Not while there are religions that claim the physical life is a transitory step and that you can achieve eternal happiness by persecuting others.

And more importantly not while there are limited resources to fight for. I think the past fifty years will prove to be largely the most peaceful in the history of humanity. We stand on the edge of a terrible abyss because our consumption is rapidly expanding and the resources (land, food, fuel) are rapidly declining. This century will see wars of survival and extermination.

Say those religions die out though... especially since you're living so long on the Earth anyway...

I see the lack of freshwater as the catalyst for the next conflicts for survival. Probably around 2030.

DUke:

I asked my mom if I can go back to Iraq if the United States begins war there, and she said she would never let me go back there...until Sadam has been removed out of office, and until an actual, stable government is established. I, on my own, would more than love to go there and suffer...

You're legal now, aren't you? So what's really to prevent you from going?