Christians massacred in Pakistan

[arhar]

In a church, when a mass has started, four men ran in, yelling Allah Akbar, and proceeded to shoot their AK-47 into the people in church... sparing no one, even little children who got on their knees and begged for mercy. There were more than 30 people dead.

I know I said it before, but I just don't understand those people. They're killing their own, who speak the same language, and pray to the same God, only call him "God" instead of "Allah" !!! How can they do something like that? It's just inhuman.

 

[DÛke]

...

I agree.

It's also inhumane for the U.S. to, "accidentally" drop bombs on innocent civilians, shatter their already not-so-great lives...

Dammit, the U.S. is losing so much money, for the jet fuel, the missles, the bombs...for WHAT!? To destroy mud houses, kill some civilians...and...um...

Compare the millions of the G's the U.S. has spent so far to the outcome...the results are negative.

All that, and they could have EASILY had a fair, just trial...but no, since Taleban agreed to have a trial for Ladin, in a third country, that is...but the U.S. refused for...some reason...and "strikes have begun..." to phrase as Dear Bush does. If the U.S. really wants justice, then the trial would seem fair...but no...now I'm assured that this is NOT about Bin Ladin...it's not about the Twin Towers...it's a part of a bigger game...

...a much, much bigger game...

Oh, and over 2600 Isreals who work on the Twin Towers were missing the day of the attacks...VERY amazing...don't you think? Heh...

AND the guy who recorded the attacks was Isreali, who had been recording there for 2+ hours...

...why would anyone record the Twin Towers for 2+ hours? I mean...they're not THAT interesting...

...

Sheesh...

<sorry, I just had to vent off>

 

[Rando]

Both the story of the guy who taped the World Trade Center for 2 hours, and the 2000+ jews who worked there and stayed home on the 11th are NOT true.

They are some of the many anti-semetic rumors and lies going around, same as dozens of rumors and urban legends that have sprung up since that day.

Once again...Not true.

One thng that IS true that you don't hear much about is the pair of bound and severed hands that was ound near the rubble in New York.

 

[Spiderman]

arhar: Same reason (technically) why Catholics and Protestants are killing each other in Ireland.

Why Israelis and Palestinians are at each other's throats.

Why the Taliban, which is Pashtun dominated, killed a Pashtun dissenter.

Why Hutus are killing Tutsis in Africa.

DUke: When did the Taliban agree to hold a trial in Afghanistan?

 

[DÛke]

...

Rando, how do you know it's not true? I'm NOT sure, but Al Jazeera, the famous Arabic channel, is really talking a lot about the United States these days...I have that channel, and the stuff I hear makes me want to LEAVE the United States. I'm serious...I know they may be a bit biased, but the stuff the say is true...that's why I don't watch the channel anymore, because...

...I'm SO weak after all, I, myself, can't handle the truth anymore...so I'm actually forgetting about the whole attack and stuff, because if I want to think about it: the United States is 307% to blame. Period.

Spiderman, I didn't say they agreed to hold a trial in Afgan, I said in a THIRD country, meaning not the U.S. nor Afgan...they wanted U.K., but the U.S. refused, stating that there will be "no negotiations..." WHAT kind of stupid leadership is this anyway!? If peacetalks and justice is not the answer, than what is? War!? <LAUGHS> <LAUGHS> <LAUGHS> The war will bring NOTHING. ZERO, and MARK my words. Not only that, but with wars, history repeats itself, now the kids who lost their parents in Afgan who have to WORK for a living, will hold it deeply in their hearts to avenge...

...the United States have created a new generation of "terrorists," but are they really terrorists, or are they people demanding justice?

HMMMMMMMMMMMMM...

 

[Spiderman]

Here's a link that debunks the number of Jews supposedly missing from the WTC on 9/11. (it has the number as 4000).

I read an interesting article today in the Washington Post about how there have been secret and not-so-secret talks with the Taliban in handing over bin Laden for at least three years and how missteps were made on both sides in their inability to come to a deal. I can post the link if anyone interested, but basically it's just misunderstandings of cultures and second-guessing.

Heh... the US is 307% to blame? I like it... it's like saying women are asking to be raped if they dress in miniskirts...



Be strong, DUke!

 

[Daggertooth]

307% to blame for what? The political situation over there? The civil war they have? The loss of life created by their killing their own as well as our bombs? The fact that israel soldiers have killed hundreads of thousands of them? The fact that the whole blasted region has been at war with someone for the past X years? What? What are you blaming us for?

Sure, we have a horrid foreign policy. I'm not defending that. I also understand that america's hands are soaked in the blood of the innocent as well as the guilty. So what. you want use to say we're sorry and completely pull out of everything we have been trying to do? We got hit hard when the towers colapsed. Doing anything less than a military strike would have been considered weakness on our part by the terrorist groups. So we bombed them, everyone knew that civilians would be killed, especialy with the taliban using civilian targets as human shields. And we were really sorry for killing some of our northern alliance allies. But again, its the price you pay.

Daggertooth

 

[MrXarvox]

If the US is 307% to blame, then the Taliban is also 307% to blame, and that makes for an illogical 614% blame factor. It's bleeding 50/50, no side is innocent, the Taliban are scum who deserve it, Americans think they're better than everyone else.
Anyone who lays all of the blame on one party has got it all wrong.


As for the topic...

it's the sort of thing that makes me roll my eyes and think, "when are they (referencing all religious zealots and jingoists, worldwide) gonna friggen get over all this bull<excreta>?"

 

[arhar]

I vowed that I will not discuss politics here again, so I'm not going to respond to that, although, as you guys can probably imagine, I 100% disagree with Duke. However, the story about X thousand of Israelis not going to work in WTC is Anti-semitic oinkoink!!! I'm sorry, there's just no other word for it. "Yes, Mr Rabinovitch, how are you, this is Mossad on the phone. Yeah, just wanted to let you know, don't come to work tomorrow!! And don't let your non-jew coworkers know about it. Yep, have a nice day!" C'mon Duke, I would expect you to have more class than believe drivel like that.

 

[Apollo]

Ditto with Arhar on the Israeli issue. That's just ridiculous, I can't believe anybody would buy that. Spidey's site and Snopes.com both do a good job of debunking it.

So maybe your news channel doesn't tell the truth, DUke...

As for the trial in the third country, the U.S. made several demands before they started bombing. The Taliban would accept none of them. So the U.S. attacked, and then the Taliban agreed to turn him over to a third country. IMHO, it was a bit too late to try to negotiate, especially since that wasn't even the demand in the first place. Since the Taliban, who first denied even having him, and have cast their lot firmly with him, suddenly want a 3rd-country trial, the U.S. are naturally suspicious. The crimes were comitted here, so it is natural that he be tried here. A man who robs a store in Montana is not tried in Ohio, he is tried in Montana.

Heh... the US is 307% to blame? I like it... it's like saying women are asking to be raped if they dress in miniskirts...

Haha. I like it.

 

[Spiderman]

Snopes.com linked me to my site... I was a bit confused about that, but oh well...

That article I was mentioning was saying it was possible that the US misunderstood what the Taliban was trying to say, that when they said they had no idea where bin Laden was, that it was supposed to be a "subtle" way of telling the US to go ahead and get him.

I think Al Jazeera is a good news source as they pretty much have an exclusive on news coming out of Afghanistan, you just have to KNOW that since it's exclusive, there's not an easy way of verifying what comes out with another source.

 

[DÛke]

...news channel doesn't tell the truth, Apollo!? God, I can't believe some of you are EVEN buying what the U.S. government is selling you, that Al Jazeera is faking the news...

If there's anyone fakin' the news so that the nation doens't hear exactly what's goin' on, than' it's CNN.

I can't believe anyone would buy the crap...this world is full of stupider people than I thought...God, it's makes me so mad that I feel this way and be ALL alone feeling this way because nobody even TRIES to understand the REAL tragedy behind the issue. Dammit, I hate this world...I really do...

...I have EVERYTHING, the dreams and the power, to live my life as I want...but seeing how stupid the United States is, how stupid the extreamist are, how stupid the whole situation is...HOW stupid the rejection of any logical understanding...this is all makin' me want to just kill myself...I can't tolerate living in an stupid world, and I am, sadly, living in THE stupid world: no, that's no the U.S., that's the WHOLE world in general.

Dammit, I can't explain with just words how much I HATE all of this...I wish I can make you feel it...you'd freak out.

And then comes Apollo with his stupid comments...<sigh>which stirrs me even more...

Ok, calm down...

IF the United States want justice as the objective, then somebody PLEASE, I BEG you to explain to me why they rejected Taleban's offer to hand Ladin to a third country and have a fair trial!? PLEASE, tell me why...

OH, and Apollo, your justification is just bulls**t. If you want justice, you'd gain justice. It doesn't matter where. HOW could they have a fair trial in the United States after all the hatred that was stirred up against Bin Ladin!? Equally, how can they have a fair trial in Afgan, the homeland? A third country seems to be fair...

...after ALL, it's all about the coalition, right? What's the coalition for if it's not used for justice? Is it just to kill innocent people, the U.S. has already commited?

...or is it to accept the evil's offers and try to tolerate their misdoings and end up having a FAIR and JUST trial?

I think the later one sounds MUCH more fair than ANYTHING else...

This WHOLE deal would have ended if the U.S. isn't so arrogant...

In fact, this WHOLE deal would have never happend if the U.S. jus STOPS interfering with others...

...why did they reject the offer, and went and killed innocent civilians, by "mistake" or not...???

I can't believe it...

 

[Spiderman]

IF the United States want justice as the objective, then somebody PLEASE, I BEG you to explain to me why they rejected Taleban's offer to hand Ladin to a third country and have a fair trial!? PLEASE, tell me why...

From what I'm reading, probably because there were doubts that the Taliban could actually deliver bin Laden, especially since the people negotiating on the Taliban side representing only one faction of the Taliban leadership.

In fact, this WHOLE deal would have never happend if the U.S. jus STOPS interfering with others

This WHOLE deal never would have happened if some dim-witted Muslim fanatic who apparently doesn't even know the Koran decides to have a personal beef because the "US is occupying his homeland and thus desecrating certain holy Muslim sites", never mind that the said homeland leaders allowed the US to come in (boy, you sure don't see this fanatic blowing up his own homeland or fellow Muslims) or that the majority of the rest of the Muslim world apparently doesn't have a problem with it.

 

[DÛke]

...

Since the world is so separated...

Us "Muslims" don't mind it. Nope. That's the truth. I haven't heard a single Muslim, out of 20, 000 whom I know that has ANYTHING bad to say even about bin Ladin. The fact is, WE, since we're viewed as a smaller part of society, that we're "tribal," and are unsophisticated, stone-age people...WE can fight amongst ourself. We as a "stupid" community, can do anything we want amongst ourselves...

...we can fight each other during Ramadan, we can fight each other, and commit unspeakable crimes during anytime...amongst each other...

...but we, as Muslims, and I'm represeing more than 20, 000 people here, DO NOT, in any way, shape, or from, want ANYONE else to come and fight with or in us. We're one big f**ked family, we can do anything we want to each other, but we don't like it when a stranger comes in and starts takin' sides, supporting "them" while leaving "the others," and bombin' them, and killing those...NOPE, NOT allowed. We fight each other, yes...but in these times...EVEN US, the "lower" life-forms unite, and we are uniting...we are saying: STOP IT. STOP the war. The extreamist MUST DIE in fatal, brutal way, but STOP IT, YOU get OUT of my house dang it!

NOT hard to understand...but it seems to be...

 

[EricBess]

Duke,

Obviously, you have emotions running pretty high now days. My thoughts are with you and I simpathize, even if I can not possibly know the depth of what you must be going through.

However, please don't rush to judge or assume that you have the whole story. I certainly don't. I cannot say for assurity that the leaders of this that or the other government are doing the right or wrong thing at the moment. I know that the US government is, in part, making it up as they go along. There is simply no precident to follow. However, they are not doing anything rushed. There are a lot of good people putting a lot of thought and effort into what to do.

I was surprised when you said that the Taliban had agreed to turn over bin Ladin to the UK. My understanding was that they wanted to turn him over to a non-partial country. The UK certainly didn't qualify. Basically, my understanding, and I stress that this is my understanding only, is that the Taliban wanted to turn him over to a country that wouldn't necessarily want terrorism, but that wouldn't feel a need to punish him either. That way, he could live out his life in said country with no repurcussions of his actions other than having to live there.

Basically, what that amounts to is letting him completely get away with it since Afghanastan would probably not try to stop him at the border if he wanted to come "home".

Anyway, if, as you said, they were willing to turn him over to the UK, then perhaps that offer should have been given more serious thought. Or perhaps it was given more serious thought and there was a reason it was rejected. Anything you see that appears to be a rash decision on TV has probably had a lot of thought go into it already. Humans can be impulsive, but I can pretty much guarnetee you that the leaders of the US know better than to let their personal impulses guide their actions directly.

I'm not defending or condemning their action. I'm simply saying that it wasn't a rash decision.

One other thing to remember. The US had declared war on Terrorism. Bin Ladin is part of that, but he is not the only terrorist in the world. Anything that happens with bin Ladin sets a precidence. Perhaps that is unfortunate, but it is how things are right now.

Anyway, Duke, I wish I had some answers for you. I don't, but I trust my leaders right now. Perhaps that is misplaced trust. I know from your point of view, that must seem pretty hollow. It is a travesty that any innocent people have died in Afghanistan and Packistan. But war is just a terrible thing in general and it is a shame that innocent people have died at all.

Anyway, I'm always here to lend an ear.

 

[Spiderman]

DUke: You misunderstood me when I said the other Arabs didn't have a problem with "it", "it" meaning the US in Saudi Arabia and "occupying holy Muslim sites". Not with bin Laden.

May I remind you that apparently, bin Laden came in "our" house first with the killings.

EricBess: It looks like I'll have to provide that link after all, of why the US has failed to negotiate for bin Laden's surrender via the Taliban for at least three years.

Diplomats Met with Taliban on bin Laden

 

[DÛke]

...

Thanks Ericbess, but nothing can help me...I'm way over my head, and I know it...I don't know what's worse, that I know harsh facts, or that I know some people would never change their minds about anything simply because of... ... ... ?

Spiderman, well, I WAS talking about us Muslims. Al Jazeera, which is only THE Arabic New Media is showing a lot of truth, and guess what, the U.S. is calling them liers and such...just like >>I<< was called a lier few weeks ago because of what I said...

...it seems that it's a general, public attitude to accuse someone of lying instead of actually listening...well, I'm NOT lying...I wish I was, because I really hate this feeling I live in.

I'm movin' OUT of the United States as SOON as virtually possible and goin' to live in Canada where my cousins and my people, and where the educated Eurpean society lurks. I'm movin' outta this place man...

...I was talkin' to my cousin the other day over AIM, and she knew exactly how I felt...she had felt it too...it's a feeling of OH my God, I can't explain it...it's a feeling that you know something but nobody else does, so you're forced to live alone...Jesus it's terrible...

...I'm movin' to Canada...period...I can't stand the U.S., I can't stand extreamist Afgan, I can't stand dear Bush...I think I'm havin' racist thoughts in my head, and I'm beginning to fear myself, because I CAN FEEL how I'm changin' from a moral, calm, understanding person, into a really, really distubed individual who has racist thoughts...

Thank you U.S....

And Spiderman, MAY >>I<< remind YOU that the bin Ladin ONLY attacked your dear homeland BECAUSE you were in his!? LEAVE THE MAN ALONE...he's not demanding much, all he wants is to live in his lands WITHOUT ANY strangers...

Again..."GET OUT OF MY HOUSE," Heh...poor guy, he must have felt the way I'm feeling now...but for a long, long, long period of time...he went crazy...God...I have sympathy for him...really, now that I'm feeling like him...

Sheesh, I wish I don't become him...

 

[arhar]

Duke, calm down, jeez. It's ok. You're not in "1984." Looks to me like you're having a nervous breakdown. Why don't you come over to Brooklyn, we'll have a few beers and forget about this whole deal.

 

[DÛke]

...

Calm down!? I can't...really...I tried.

I live with my music and the music-groups...I hear the same stuff...same biased thoughts...same things...

I come to the CPA JUST to escape from the freakin' music society, and I hear the exact same thoughts...

I go to school...and the same thoughts...same things...same line...

Where can I go! I tried running away from this problem on the net...but you can see what's happening...

Sadly, but the truth is, my opinion is becoming biased...and I don't like that...it's just that I hear so many people with remarks like "f**k Mohammad" and generally with uneducated biased thoughts and all, that I myself start hating people and stepping that low, into that level of real lower intellectual mindset...I swear, I over-heard people talkin' today, and I was just about ready to become a freakin' livin' beast and shred them apart completely...BUT I can calm myself down, I just can't stop thinkin' about the deal, especially when it's EVERYWHERE...

And it's only getting worse...CNN says one thing, Aljazeera says another...you start wonderin' why the news is so different, and why people JUST can't get a long...I don't see any reason, EACH live in your land, and make sure you don't bother anyone else...it's that easy...but things like personal interest, selfishness, and greed that makes countries fight...

...EACH and every country is guilty of commiting acts solely for its interest...and that's not the way it should be...but it is...and I can't stand it...and it's not gonna go away, as long as I have learned about this fact, I will not live the same...THAT changed my life completely...for the worse...

 

[Spiderman]

Originally posted by DÛke
Spiderman, well, I WAS talking about us Muslims. Al Jazeera, which is only THE Arabic New Media is showing a lot of truth, and guess what, the U.S. is calling them liers and such...just like >>I<< was called a lier few weeks ago because of what I said...

When is the US calling them liars?

And Spiderman, MAY >>I<< remind YOU that the bin Ladin ONLY attacked your dear homeland BECAUSE you were in his!? LEAVE THE MAN ALONE...he's not demanding much, all he wants is to live in his lands WITHOUT ANY strangers...

My dear DUke, may I remind you[ that we were and are invited guests in his "house" (which has disowned him anyway) and like he has a voice in the matter anyway?

And that it was good 'ol Saddam Hussein, a fellow Muslim, who invaded another house which caused that invite anyway? But do you see Mr. bin Laden going after his own fellow Muslims, like him or the House of Saud? Nooo....

More and more, it's looking like a case of someone who just wants to conveniently "blame" a scapegoat because blaming the REAL perpertrators would probably backfire.... like someone who spills coffee over himself and blames McDonald's for selling it "hot" and with no warning...