Arhar said:
There were more than 30 people dead.
Actually it was only 16 killed and 30ish wounded. Not really any better but at least its a few more who aren't dead.
Duke said:
It's also inhumane for the U.S. to, "accidentally" drop bombs on innocent civilians, shatter their already not-so-great lives...
At least they're trying to avoid civilian targets unlike some others involved in this whole mess. If they weren't there wouldn't be anyone alive in the major Afghan cities to tell us so. Its also somewhat humorous because semi-neutral sources in the middle east are now criticizing the US for not hitting hard enough and that they're acting undecisive and weak, to put it mildly.
Well, could you please quote me, where I stated that it was a FACT that Isreali workers were missing? More even, can you quote me where I stated that Aljazeera stated that? Must be my memory, for I don't recall saying such "facts."
Your memory must be failing you, because in your first post to this thread you said that:
Oh, and over 2600 Isreals who work on the Twin Towers were missing the day of the attacks...VERY amazing...don't you think? Heh...
Then after Rando countered that statement by calling it:
Both the story of the guy who taped the World Trade Center for 2 hours, and the 2000+ jews who worked there and stayed home on the 11th are NOT true.
You replied with:
Rando, how do you know it's not true? I'm NOT sure, but Al Jazeera, the famous Arabic channel, is really talking a lot about the United States these days...I have that channel, and the stuff I hear makes me want to LEAVE the United States. I'm serious...I know they may be a bit biased, but the stuff the say is true...that's why I don't watch the channel anymore, because..
That statement indicates you got the so called "fact" from said news station. Since this fact is untrue it means that the news station was stating misinformation, that doesn't make them liars, it just makes them incorrect.
Also saying that the stuff they say is true is just being biased to one side of the situation, and while its an undertandable bias, its only a fraction of the pie. No news station is pure gold so to speak and they'll always give most of the truth as long as it looks good to the area they broadcast from.
I am quite familiar with Al Jazeera, and they are a credible news station equal with groups like CNN, the BBC, and the CTV network. However they too also have a level of bias in their information and broadcasts. I really don't think they'd last long if they said something like "Isreal is just a bunch of nice people." The statement itself would only be partially true as we all know the Isreal military has a black cloud over it, but normal citizens are decent people who just want to live their lives just like any common American or Arab. But I can almost gaurantee that the news station would be either shut down, blown up, or taken over by force by these charming radicals.
Daggertooth said:
The political situation over there? The civil war they have? The loss of life created by their killing their own as well as our bombs? The fact that israel soldiers have killed hundreads of thousands of them? The fact that the whole blasted region has been at war with someone for the past X years? What? What are you blaming us for?
The entire middle east has been in chaos for decades, especially since the 80's when the Russians finally packed up and went home. However the US and other western countries are only a convinient scapegoat for the failings of the Arab countries to produce into stable modernized countries. They have tried several times with different forms of government and ideas, but each time it ended in ruin because someone didn't want to go with the plan and built a bomb to sell their point of view and they soon began to hate the idea of being "modern". People grew frustrated and angry and worst of all humiliated, (note to readers, humiliation is the WORST thing you can do to an Arab man, they don't take it well at all.) Thats one of the many reasons that so many Arabs hate Isreal so deeply, its because Isreal succeeded where they failed even though Isreal has worse land for agricultural use and has only been around for about 60 years. Its a living, almost flourishing symbol of their humiliation right on their doorstep and its understandable when you understand Arab pride why they want to get rid of it just for that reason alone.
After things like communisim, socialism, and nationalism all failed to produce a working government a small group of people started spreading their own interpretation of the Quaran (sp?) and rallied the people through religion and fed their hates for moderization and westerism and turned out a very functioning and vicious fanaticism with a common goal to destroy and remove what they consider invading infidels, throwing aside progress so that they wouldn't be like those they now hated. They may live in middle ages conditions, but they in part choose it that way with their own path. Today the only functioning governments in the middle east are all oppressive and either run by a military force or a royal family of some kind, the lone other form is Isreal which is democracy.
I remember when Afghanastan was a beautiful place, I've seen pictures and film reels of it from before the Russian occupation. The Russians destroyed some of that charm and beauty, but the Afgans did the rest of the damage themselves when they couldn't get their act together and decided war and slaughter was a better idea then peace. Theres no reason the middle east can't be a beautiful land again if they'd just stop killing each other and get to peace talks that everyone would back. To much bad blood for them to put the ego aside I guess...
Apollo said:
As for the trial in the third country, the U.S. made several demands before they started bombing. The Taliban would accept none of them. So the U.S. attacked, and then the Taliban agreed to turn him over to a third country
Actually the taliban, after admiting he was still there, wanted to turn him over or rather present him to a court of islamic law. Needless to say this was an unacceptable solution to the US because its well known that Bin Laden is a folk hero to many many people over there and that there would be no way to get a reliably unbiased trial. Likewise the Taliban refused to turn him over to any western or U.N. court for the same reasons of biased unfairness.
Duke said:
IF the United States want justice as the objective, then somebody PLEASE, I BEG you to explain to me why they rejected Taleban's offer to hand Ladin to a third country and have a fair trial!? PLEASE, tell me why...
Because its impossible, there isn't a neutral third country to hand him over to. Justice is unfortunatly never balanced and the scales always lean one way or the other.
This WHOLE deal would have ended if the U.S. isn't so arrogant...
This can also be said for many other Arab nations, European countries, and Asian nations that have been involved in any conflict in the last 50 years. For a recent example, if Saddam Hussein wasn't so arrogant then innocent Iraqi civies would be starving to death behind a UN blockade and the rebuilding of the country could take place.
To bad humans never learn isn't it.
In fact, this WHOLE deal would have never happend if the U.S. jus STOPS interfering with others...
Incorrect sadly, hatred doesn't just go away with the snap of fingers and several of these terrorist groups have already proven themselves to be abusive and untrustworthy. They'd keep coming as long as they think they can get something out of a target that won't fight back or their "god" keeps telling them to. The US "interference" is reletively minor in comparison to what they've done to each other. But I guess doing things like preventing genocide is considered interference in some peoples books.
I'm movin' OUT of the United States as SOON as virtually possible and goin' to live in Canada where my cousins and my people, and where the educated Eurpean society lurks. I'm movin' outta this place man...
Sorry to break it to you, but Canada isn't much better then the US, we're just more...patient about some things. But for the most part its the 'You leave me alone, I leave you alone' un-written rule. It works ok most of the time, but doesn't do much for cultural sharing or acting as a united country rather then a pile of different special interest groups.
Unfortunately the un-written rule thats supposed to work doesn't all the time and clashes do happen, often between gangs of overly hormonal youths. I've had so many bad experiences with young people of Arab decent that I can't help but be wary and biased about them now, much to my own loss. I just stick to the rule and go about my life as best I can.
why people JUST can't get a long...I don't see any reason, EACH live in your land, and make sure you don't bother anyone else...it's that easy...but things like personal interest, selfishness, and greed that makes countries fight...
...EACH and every country is guilty of commiting acts solely for its interest...and that's not the way it should be...but it is...and I can't stand it...and it's not gonna go away
Yup, thats pretty much it, you've got the entire plain digusting picture right in front of you down its basic core, stripped of nationality, religion, and personality. Welcome to the human race.
No, if you've been listening to me, Gizmo, or Multani, you'd know by now that the U.S. IS the one starting all the wars...
So I guess the US got Saddam Hussein to invade Kuwait so that when Kuwait went screaming to the U.N. for help they could step in and wipe out Iraq, the US was the cause of the entire Afgan civil war after the Russians left, and the US was really the group that got Slobodan Milosovich to massacre tens of thousands of Muslim civies just so they could go in and kick his ass too.
The middle east the surrounding area has been fighting with itself and wiping each other out since long before the US was even formed, the last time the area was united was during the reign of the Ottoman empire. But as you said, you're allowed to do whatever you want to each other, as long as no one else comes in to play regardless of how brutal and unjust things are over there.
The US is far from innocent, but they're also alot less guilty then so many people make them out to be while turning the other cheek to everything else.
In the past 20 years, the U.S. wars and issues have been mostly against colored-people...a VERY interesting fact...
Lets see, the last 20 years, since 1982 huh. Since just about every war the US has been involved in since then has been in the middle east it kinda makes sense that they would be fighting against, as you say, "colored-people". Though its honestly hard to tell sometimes what exactly a "colored-person" is since so many people look so much the same.
TELL me, WHY did he Arabs attack the U.S.!? Not Australia...Not Germany? Not any of these other "civilized" societies? Why was the U.S. singled out...
Because when you fight against a lion you try to chop off its head, not its tail.
Though strangely enough Arabs have been attacking the Phillipines for the last 5 years or so even though its not part of the middle east and has never been an Arab or Muslim country.
...and I was watchin' MTV
Sorry, but the day MTV is useful for anything besides showing how naked Britenay Spears is getting or how much of an idiot Tom Green is, will be the day I eat my keyboard.
Additionally, the U.S. is not messing around with others because those others are either ALLIES of the U.S., or they obey the U.S from fear.
Well, thats the nice thing about allies, allies work together for the common good. Though the fear thing is somewhat silly considering countries like China and North Korea which don't give a rat's ass about what the US thinks or says for the most part and certainly aren't afraid of them. Yet the US isn't going on a bombing bender with them.
People died, and 12-year olds are left alone to feel to Pakistan and WORK (!) for a living...[Confirmed by Aljazeera, Spiderman]
This is hardly the US' fault since its been happening for years because of the Taliban rulers. The only difference now is that its on the front page of the news to make people get their emotional spikes going.
Incidentally I've been working since I was 13 so I don't see whats so bad about the idea of having to work at a young age. The only thing bad about it is that they have little choice in the matter where as I did.
The food resources were destroyed...oh, but the U.S. offered it's own food...(wtf!)
Plain and simple stupidity blended with a touch of bad aim make for a deadly cocktail. Though even the US military freely admits that their smartest smart bombs are only about 85% effective overall and cluster bombs are far far worse.
There's possibly another attack in few days...", the U.S. declares...
Yeah...can you confirm it?
"Yes..."
Tell us one resource?
"Um...we don't...um...really know...but...hey...it's better to be safe than sorry..."
The sources was actually a cell-phone transmition intercept here in Canada that the RCMP notified the FBI of. And oh yes, the US government admited it on CNN.
They're also lookin' to "bring Iraq to justice"
This is from to many idiot commanders with bruised egos from the Gulf War and not getting Sadam Hussein out of power. No one will condone the US going after Iraq again and the coalition would fall apart.
I'm beginning to become a racist...
Racism can only be countered by the loss of ignorance and the gaining of tolerence and education of all the worlds "truths".
Daggertooth said:
Well who needs to have the dead comfirmed? We droped bombs with the intent to kill, I'd assume our aim is good enough to kill at least somone.
Who even needs aim, this is a war after all and in all wars innocent people always die. If it wasn't like this then war wouldn't be scary. Just don't join the military and you'll be safe forever. Sorry, but if war ever became so neat and tidy, then I would truely be terrified.
Duke said:
College students are so much more mature than adults...
Heh, I know alot of college and university students, I was one myself before graduating. The only description that I've ever heard to describe college life was that its like being a little kid again back in elementary school. All you have to do is go to classes and pass and everything else is pretty much taken care of for you. College students have all sorts of charming and sometimes radical ideas, but then they graduate and discover that all that freedom and openess of college life doesn't cut it in the real world where the only thing out there for you is yourself and you have to work your butt off to get anywhere. Lots of college students are enlightened to some degree, but then reality smacks them upside the head and enlightenment gets pretty much flushed in the majority of them.
unlike this time...you'll be able to justify it...because yes, it is justifable...
Sorry, but NOTHING justifies the brutal massacre of 5000+ civies regardless of who is doing it or where its happening, and nothing EVER will.
understand the future, because another attack, and another, and another, and another will happen...and when they do, please, at least ask yourself "why did it happen?"
And another and another until the US just stops playing games and fights back with the same level of morality, kicks every Arab out of the US and never lets one back in while commencing long range bombardments of Arab nations with the brutal and single goal of wiping out the entire race. That would be the final brutal solution and the pleasant annihilation of the human race.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR POINTING THAT OUT! WHY do you think it has been only from the Middle East? Is it just blind hate that they have against the American society? Or are they just a group of people who dislike civilization and technology? Or is it that they're Muslims and you're not, and they just have such extream hate for you? Why do you think...please answer me, I'm beginning to think that you actually KNOW the cause and effect, therefore I will resume on conversing. Just tell me, calmly, why do you think the Middle East has so much hatred for the U.S.? Tell me what you think...
Anybody who can answer that question is passionatly urged to do so...
Observe my first reply to Daggertooth. The US is the crown jewel of everything they failed to achieve when they tried and now they want nothing to do with it which includes trying to kick it out of the middle east all together. That way their humility can be turned into an error that has been corrected and had punishment given out for it. You chop off the hand of a thief, stone an adultress or hang her, why not try to wipe out a country that "led you a-stray." It makes perfect sense in their chain of wronging and punishment. All the little underlying causes all sit under this little tent. Burn up the causes and the tent goes with it. To them its problem solved.
The fact is, it HAS been confirmed, by Aljazeera.
Something you have to realize is that not everyone has access to Al Jazeera, you and I may be the only two that do. So when you don't have access to something you can hardly go by it without seeing the reports for yourself. CNN has also been confirming all these deaths, its not like its a big secret with a giant cover-up. Everyone knows whats going on and whats happening, the only difference is the numbers reported by each side and station.
I believe Spidey was reffering to the fact that western media has been banned from entering the country except in northern alliance controlled areas.
They showed horrible pictures of dead kids, men almost crying for their lost wives,
hmm, sounds like a show I saw on CNN around September, 11. How horrible that things get put into re-run so often, its not even summer yet.
I'm not gonna "admit" I'm wrong, because I've spent too many hours working, reading, and studying about all this information I'm trying to share with you. I know I'm not wrong because I've wasted so much time reading my history...I don't expect anyone to admit he's "wrong" because one should always, always, always think before assuming the dangerous sign of language..
When you're driving down a road to a town, and that town is to the left but you turn right. No matter how long you insist on driving you will never reach your destination untill you go back and re-evaluate possible errors along your route. Time is irrelevant to the search for the real truth.
Zadok001 said:
Everyone is to blame. No one is perfect. No one can be trusted 100%. DUke, your sources are likely wrong. Apollo, your sources are likely wrong. Spidey, your sources are likely wrong. Zadok, your sources are likely wrong.
Woohoo! Give that man a frothy cold
rootbeer.
Duke said:
Funny how when they are asked to leave
I don't remember the Saudi royal family doing that, though I miss enough broadcasts its easy enough for me to miss it. Is there a link to a news report somewhere you can give? Last I heard the Saudi Arabian government wanted the US there to keep Iraq out of their hair.
I really disagree when it comes to Aljazeera, for I've watched that channel forever, and eveything they say is wise, right to the point, and truthful. I've watched for more than 5 years...I don't think they'll be untruthful about this or any issue,
You mean besides the bit about all the Israli/Jewish workers being away from the WTC on 9/11.
I've watched CNN and CTV for almost 10 years and everything they've always told me has been truthful and honest, so what makes them suddenly all wrong now and another group all right. A-J is no more truthful or errant then CNN. Its just simple personal bias, end of story.
because like I said, lying, in the Middle East and the Arab world, is a BIG no-no-no-no. It's a sin...
Strange, I thought slaughtering innocent civies, theft, and violence were sins too in Islam, though there are some Muslims that don't seem to have any problem with those sins and the Taliban has already proven quite comfortable with lying as they did so after 9/11 when they totally denied the Bin Laden was even in the country anymore.
Additionally, I do not comprehend this "off-centre" thing.
Yeah, me neither...
