fine tuned straight burn

[Spiderman]

Originally posted by Oversoul
Did you conduct a survey? Come on. Most of the magic playing population doesn't play very much and isn't into the game at all. They aren't going to keep up with the B/R lists. Sure, the good players do...

Did you conduct a survey that the majority (or "most") don't play very much? The B/R list for Vintage hasn't changed a lot over the years so anyone who has the old cards pretty much knows what's on it. And if they're a new player coming in to play and don't know, they're most likely not going to know about the old cards to begin with to know whether what cards are restricted or not.

It might come up with current cards getting restricted like Chrome Mox, but that's an expensive card to get anyway for a new player AND to use it a "casual" game. If he's trying to get 4 of it, he's probably going to play or know about the tourney scene and know it's restricted.

 

[Oversoul]

Originally posted by Spiderman
Did you conduct a survey that the majority (or "most") don't play very much?

You can't be serious...

The margin is enough that casual observation will show you. The people I play with have at least a general idea of what is on the Vintage restricted list. But most of them don't know the exact contents, and they're pretty good players. The number of players I've come across who've never even heard of the restricted list is greater by so much that it's not even close...

Sure, most all players who discuss Magic on the internet are familiar with the restricted list...

But they make up a pretty insignificant chunk of the total player-base...

 

[Spiderman]

Well, I'm telling you that my experiences are different (and it seems that mythosx's experiences coincide with mine). Most casual players DO know what the B/R list is. So where does that leave us? I'm concluding that your area is just less savvy than the general casual populance.

 

[Oversoul]

Originally posted by Spiderman
Well, I'm telling you that my experiences are different (and it seems that mythosx's experiences coincide with mine). Most casual players DO know what the B/R list is. So where does that leave us? I'm concluding that your area is just less savvy than the general casual populance.

Conclude what you like. The difference is too huge. It's not like it's even close...

 

[train]

"Most casual players DO know what the B/R list is."

I'd have to say this is because most casual players now, were more than that previously, or have been around enough shops to hear about it...

 

[Tabasco]

Knowing about the B/R list and caring what is on it are 2 different things.

A causual deck is just for fun anyway, so who cares if It has 4 Frantic search and 4 Fact or Fiction.

 

[Spiderman]

But my point is that in my experience, the casual players know AND care about the B/R list. Truly casual decks that have no restrictions usually appear in groups that have played for a while and agreed upon beforehand, not in games between strangers that you meet to duel for the "first time".

 

[train]

I guess I'm in the minority here (in San Angelo) then spidey... rampant decks ran amuck when i first started playing... though they understood what i meant when I told them it "broke" the rules...

 

[Spiderman]

Well no, it's just now it seems we have two areas who pay attention to the B/R list and two that don't.

When did you start playing though? Recently as in the last year or a while ago (late 90's)?

 

[train]

94...

 

[Spiderman]

Well, yeah, THAT far back, the B/R list was just beginning to appear... heck, Magic was still in the infant stage...

 

[Oversoul]

Originally posted by Spiderman
Well no, it's just now it seems we have two areas who pay attention to the B/R list and two that don't.

When did you start playing though? Recently as in the last year or a while ago (late 90's)?

I haven't heard of an entire "area" like that. It's just that tournament players tend to play with decks that are legal for tournaments. Casual players aren't as strict on that.

Like Tabasco said, "A causual deck is just for fun anyway, so who cares if It has 4 Frantic search and 4 Fact or Fiction."

I've run into people that only play specific formats (typically standard) but never a player who did not say anything about it before the match and was then like "oh, your deck is illegal, you jerk!" or something to that effect...

The vast majority of players seem to me to not take the game seriously enough to worry about official bannings and restrictions.

Myself, for most of the time I've played, I've had some interest in Type I. But I didn't build decks for it, because I didn't have good enough cards, and if you're going to build a deck for a format, I think you should do it the right way. That's changed somewhat now, especially with the creation of the new Raisin format...

 

[Spiderman]

When I say "area'", I mean the Baltimore/Washington area (which I don't know exactly means what if you need to know the exact boundaries) and mythosx's "area" (however he defines it). Not the "US area" vs "Europe area", which is too big of a scale.

Now you get into the various definitions of "casual", which is age-old. One could argue that a "casual" deck is one that is not Tier 1 or Tier 2 (whatever that means, so probably not able to consistently place in the Top 8/16/whatever).

If you argue that a casual player is defined by if he follows the B/R list, which is what it seems we're doing, then that is what I'm taking issue with, because the majority of players I've encountered DO follow it, whether they're in a tourney or not. Unless the format was specifically agreed upon beforehand.

I've never ran into the person who says "you jerk! You're running four Wheels and didn't tell me" because at the risk of repeating myself, it's always understood that you're playing 1 of the restricted cards unless someone speaks up before the game. And the format only matters with respect of what kind of cards are in the deck - I would say "I'm playing with some Odyssey cards" which immediately bumps the format back to Vintage (mainly because people don't seem to care about 1.5 or Extended as much, just whether you're playing Standard or Vintage. If the other two matter as much, one would say so).

But in my experience, people explicitly agree to play with "unlimited brokenness" before the game, not as the norm.

 

[Oversoul]

Originally posted by Spiderman
If you argue that a casual player is defined by if he follows the B/R list, which is what it seems we're doing, then that is what I'm taking issue with, because the majority of players I've encountered DO follow it, whether they're in a tourney or not. Unless the format was specifically agreed upon beforehand.

That's all well and good. I'm not trying to say that a casual player is one who is defined by what format is played, though. I never tried to bring up what defines a "casual player" at all (I'm not saying you said I did either, but if SOMEONE did, then I missed it and I just want to clarify that such is not what I'm gettting at).

I guess such a method of playing casually does provide continuity. That's about all it does though. Too me, it's a silly way to operate, since the Vintage restricted list was meant for Vintage tournaments. I'd rather face some budget (casual) deck with four copies of Fact or Fiction than face a finely tuned tournament deck with five Moxes. But the latter is legal and the former is not. What standard would I set? I'd try not to really, it's sort of the idea behind "casual" magic: that one doesn't take things too seriously.

Also, there's the Vintage banned list. Now the ante cards are a non-issue, since someone who tries to use them for deck-thinning in casual play is evil...

But there are two other cards that are banned in Vintage, but casually are not banned: Chaos Orb and Falling Star. I've never owned either myself, since I tend to believe I have horrible luck. But they are completely illegal for Vintage purposes. Casually, I think a player should most certainly be able to use them without asking beforehand. They're perfectly legal cards...

 

[Spiderman]

I'd rather face some budget (casual) deck with four copies of Fact or Fiction than face a finely tuned tournament deck with five Moxes. But the latter is legal and the former is not. What standard would I set? I'd try not to really, it's sort of the idea behind "casual" magic: that one doesn't take things too seriously.

But here's the thing - most often you're NOT going to face a "finely tuned tournament deck with five Moxes". Usually you're going to be somewhere in between, since the average casual player is not going to be using most of the restricted cards in casual deck for a "pick-up game". Like I keep saying, the main reason why the Vintage format is the "default" is because casual players want to play with cards not in Standard, but it's only the extremely rare person who's going to have cards all the way back to Alpha/Beta/Unlimited and who will play with them over other cards (barring older good cards vs re-makes, like Regrowth over Elven Cache).

 

[Oversoul]

Originally posted by Spiderman
But here's the thing - most often you're NOT going to face a "finely tuned tournament deck with five Moxes".

What makes you so certain? I mean, what's the difference between your casual that follows the Vintage restricted list and anything else that might be casual? Mind's Desire decks or the like could be built without Vintage rules, I suppose (they also wouldn't be as good without Moxes). I mean, I haven't faced fully powered decks in casual play, but I've face partially powered decks a few times. And I've faced Mana Drains a lot. Mana Drains are REALLY annoying, and Vintage rules let you pack four of them, if you can get them (and some players around here certainly can).

Building a deck to conform with the Vintage rules seems to me to be a waste if it would get blown out of the water by even a partially powered deck. If I want to build a casual High Tide deck or something, Frantic Search would be a great card there and should probably be included. It's restricted in Vintage. In Vintage, the decks that use it might draw Ancestral Recall and Black Lotus. And they might be untapping a Tolarian Academy as one of the lands. It's a different situation...

I do not think that the continuity provided by using the rules for a given format is always bad. Casually, it isn't usually necessary, in my experience, but using the Vintage rules would work well, as far as I can tell, with a few minor issues...

-Players will call their inferior decks "casual" decks. This will make "casual" synonymous with "bad." I dislike that myself, but I'm sure most players have no qualms with that.

-The Vintage restricted list was made and is maintained for a format that has the most broken cards in the game. Many of these are restricted, but their presences are felt even at that level (Black Lotus is a great example). And there are others that aren't restricted at all, but are massively broken and largely unavailable (Mishra's Workshop is a great example).

-No Chaos Orb or Falling Star. It's not big, but still, they're cool cards...

I think that Raisin is a better deal for casual players in that aspect. It's not perfect, but neither is Vintage. Cards like Fact or Fiction and Mox Diamond can be used as four ofs. There's not need to restrict them when the presence of power cards like Time Walk is absent. But it still allows all sets back to Alpha and makes for cool casual decks...

 

[Tabasco]

Well I associate the term casual with:

a deck "for fun"

Some people call them "bad" decks refering to the fact that they aren't tourney worthy and are inferior to tourney decks.

my second definition is just that...

a non tourney-worthy deck.

 

[Oversoul]

Well, that depends on if there are casual tournaments...

 

[Spiderman]

What makes you so certain? I mean, what's the difference between your casual that follows the Vintage restricted list and anything else that might be casual?

See, again, your area must be really different than mine if you're facing cards like Mana Drain and people who tend to use more of the restricted cards. In my area and with the people I've come in contact with, most of them started late 90's and don't have cards from the early sets. They might have some of the more "modern" cards that are on the B/R list, like Academy or Fact and Fiction or Frantic Search, but not enough of them to make a whole deck out of them for a "casual game".

-Players will call their inferior decks "casual" decks. This will make "casual" synonymous with "bad." I dislike that myself, but I'm sure most players have no qualms with that.

Again, you get into the age-old debate about what is "casual". Like Tabasco, I consider any "fun" or "non-tourney" deck (meaning it's not going Top 4 or even 8 consistently) to be casual. Usually this means tribal or theme decks, like using Sleeper Agent.

-No Chaos Orb or Falling Star. It's not big, but still, they're cool cards...

Not a big deal in my area as again, they're from such early sets that no one has them here.

1.5 could be better for casual play and it might become the default understanding with time, so that when you say "I've got a casual deck/not Standard deck", it's understood to follow the 1.5 list instead of the Vintage list and you'll have to say explicitly that it follows the Vintage list as the exception. But the "new" 1.5 is so new, it's going to take time for it to become the "standard" of casual play, if it does.

 

[Oversoul]

Well, I guess I pretty much agree with all you're saying in that last post...

What I mean about the difference between "casual" and "bad" is sometimes hard to explain, since there are grey areas. I'm not saying casual decks are decks that are tournament legal. And they should be "for fun."

But there are players who can take what is without question a crap rare and build a functional deck around it (like Train) and there are players who will build their own decks and they are original and they have good cards like Hypnotic Specter, but they also suck horribly because no testing or fine-tuning of any sort has been done at all and the deck is based around bad ideas or an unstable mana base.

I'm not trying to pretend that good players never make mistakes or have bad ideas or go about things the wrong way...

I'm also not trying to say that a new player to the game should be an expert immediately. But I have met players who claimed to have been playing for years (often longer than I've been playing myself) and yet cannot build a decent deck or even play one.

On the flip side, I've seen players completely new to the game who picked things up quickly (like that card advantage was really good or that when all you have are basic lands, one color decks are usually the way to go). There does not have to be a correlation between casual play and ineptitude.