Bush, anyone?

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by Zhaneel, Feb 18, 2003.

  1. Zhaneel Resident Gryphon Queen

    First, I have to say that I admire you, train, for sticking up for yourself when you're the only one arguing your side. I respect your opinion.

    I also have an opinion. My opinion is that you are wrong.

    I hate the US's arrogance, and how it thinks it has the right to control the world.

    And yes, I'm quite idealistic and I wish the West Wing was real.

    Although I'm nowhere near perfect, I'm doing my best to try to understand other cultures and hopefully help them. Hell, I wrote my college essay on it.
  2. Nightstalkers Creature — Nightstalker

    We'll make this short and simple:

    BUSH WANTS TO IMPRESS HIS DADDY.

    is that so hard to see?
  3. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Multani:
    Not necessarily. Clinton was not especially eager to conduct a "full-blown war" like this one and he had a Republican dominated Congree also; he might have had some missile reprisal attacks though. And Clinton was more cooperating in the international scene; Bush pulled the US out of that Kyoto treaty thing that was signed under Clinton's watch, for example.

    The slight difference between the US and Iraq in getting rid of the "head of state" is that in Iraq, the "head of state" is all there is. In the US, there's two other (fairly powerful) other checks.

    Although I admit that Congress seems more weak - I mean, what's up with the allowing the president to "conduct war" without actually having to declare war and thus get Congress formally involved?

    Zhaneel: That's very commendable. What I said is obviously hard to "prove" against oneself because one could be against suffering in the world and just hasn't put a track record here because it seems like no one else is interested so why initiate it? Although admittedly one could always just post about it and not care if anyone replies... I can see both sides and obviously people have more of a vested interested when the suffering involves the US more than not.

    Did that all make sense? :)
  4. DÛke Memento Mori

    ...

    Multani: surely you do not think that man has overcome his primitive nature? He is more primitive than ever before, in fact, and train recognizes this. When I agreed with him, I was not considering his arrogance or his blind nation-love...I was merely considering the few statements he had said. What? - we still apply the same methods of torture, but now we apply them in such a charming, more expensive way. No matter how angry we got, we never had the ability to obliterate entire cities - but now we can, and we have. A little blind rage, now, results in tragedies...and I assure you, man has not overcome his little blind-rage. You yourself understand that most people are animals, or, even blew the level of animals. Societies that are infatuated with love, with worshiping, with art, with music...cultures that are still living in the stone age...mindsets still so closed...and then we can laugh: the only thing developed about man is his clothes, his technology. Man is the same as he ever was, if not worse.

    What? - I suppose those who protest against the war, in your opinion, are righteous? I think they are more pitiful than train. train does not care, he admits it...and I love honest people. As for those who "protest" against the war - I call them animals: Iraq has been under sanctions for over 10 years, children are sickened and dying from the lack of medical supplies; the shortage of simple food supplies, not to mention, the causalities of war...all this, and where was the world? They were sitting down in their happy little places, uncaring, living their everyday misery that they call a "life." And NOW they come out, as if they were honorable or peace-loving...as if they TRULY believed themselves. You know what I would tell them? Go back to your homes you cowards, and embrace your lives...They have not showed much sympathy, only now, when it is clear and obvious that the U.S. is hysterical, now, when THEY feel threatened as well, NOW they stand up and fight. I respect train's blatant honesty and laziness, even his raging arrogance, more than I will ever respect those who have protested, or those who protest against the war still.
  5. Nightstalkers Creature — Nightstalker

    Hmm... there is a thirty percent chance that President Bush is Vying for world power. On the other hand there is a fourty percent chance that he is protecting the U.S.

    And the other thirty percent says that Bush wants to impress his father by finishing what he started. Lets give the guys a hand. eh? free scotch? Wahoo!!!
  6. train The Wildcard!!!...

    Anyone directly or indirectly threatening my family's or my well-being... I already stated I'm a sleeping activist, so no I don't think everyone out there is a threat... and the last one I thought was a threat, wasn't fired upon, but was threatened within an inch of prison - something he's deathly afraid of, and has since become quite a distant one from my family...

    And it is now apparent that those 50 years of pretext - may be a complete waste of time... something I've already discussed...

    Not to make sure it works, but to make it worthwhile to keep around... else, why have it?...


    We've established that talking gets us what?... you said, "in most instances, force was used even in the presence of negotiations... but for the last 50 or odd years, at least the pretext of negotiation has been more present than blatant force! True, at this stage, force has to back up negotiation, but for the first time in history, negotiation is the NORM rather than a backdrop for armed conflict." So you agree we shoudl get it over with... or would you rather play this out?...

    I'm not fooled - I know how much I lose every day... I work for a gas/convenience store corporation... I know all about loss on the consumer and business side... and aside from all that - I still want to get this over with... the guns are loaded, let's use them...

    Then we need to put on the rocket loaded Gauntlet and get started... that statement above sounds like we need to trounce over someone soon... do you have your own feelings of insecurity, and think we should gain a stronger upperhand?...

    Nope, he's a politician - what else would they do... I'm just glad his lies match my original thought... And in a previous political discussion on here... I mentioned we should be worrying more about saddam's regime... before we were even close to war with Iraq...

    Now that would be a statement!...


    Name a model without fault... might as well have one than none...

    Thanks Zhaneel!...

    I'm not saying I'm not wrong... I just don't see the sense in wasting anymore time on the issue... Even Multani said force was needed at this stage... Get it over with and we won't have to worry about it...

    We've earned the right to have a strong upperhand over the world... I don't think we should control it...

    I'd like to finish with this...

    We are animals... We will never overcome primitive nature... Instinct will not allow us to do so... for survival is the utmost non-spiritual religion... and we are all pre-programmed to survive... Sadly enough, that also means we have other characteristics of animals, such as a predatory nature, or defending our territory, and coincidentally, opposing any threat that would harm our well-being...

    We are just lucky enough to be high-up on the food chain... and run/flee is not in our instinctual programming when it comes to mankind... Why do you think Iraq hasn't backed down?...

    Now... let's get it over with...:D
  7. DÛke Memento Mori

    ...
    This is where train's child-like thoughts shine most. It IS possible to overcomes one's hell-bent thoughts and behaviors. We are pre-programmed to survive, you say, to "defend" our "well-being" - that is TRUE - but sadly, to the world, the United States is not defending anything, not even its own citizen's well-being - the Untied States, now, is merely playing like the role of a very bad and filthy god, a god who is about to collapse and is wanting of someone to lean on so as to make himself feel worthy again - THAT is what is happening...

    Let me assure you: there are no "feelings of insecurity" on this side of argument. Such feeling rest on your side, the side that wants much from the world without offering MUCH at all. Tell me, what have you given the world other than the life that you call an "existence?" I am waiting...

    ...

    ...waiting...

    ...waiting...

    ...

    ...

    ...

    ...running impatient...

    ...waiting...

    ...

    ..

    .

    Yes. You have given the world nothing. You are taker. You rest on values. No, in fact, you swallow values and ideals as if they were anything of any importance, and this you call your "nation." If you loved your nation at all, if you truly cared, you would be looking out for your nations well-being, and what the United States is doing, it is only gaining more opposition. But you, and the likes of you, believe that this is "well-being," that this is "defense." Defense against what? How insecure! Soon, you will not defense from the whole world...because THAT is how insecure you and your politicians are.
  8. train The Wildcard!!!...

    If it hurried up and finished it's mission - we wouldn't be gaining any more opposition - this would be in the past...

    But it's not hell-bent... it's instinct... and we will always revert to instinct, no matter how far we have progressed in any logical point of view... it is what we know best... survive...
  9. DÛke Memento Mori

    ...

    You seem to always say "get it over with," and you believe that if we had done it already, there would not be any opposition...

    ...but the fallacy of such a logic is here: you are overriding that the ONLY reason why you did not get it over with IS because you had an opposition. It is not as much of a time problem as much it is a problem of principles and a way of proper conduct between nations. The opposition did not simply BECOME when you took your time...no. The opposition was ALWAYS there. I am not referring to those who "protest against the war," but to the leaders in U.N. -- from the beginning, there was an opposition.

    ...but you seem to willfully not understand this only to inflict your point of view.

    How wrong can you be?

    To say that your nation is "democratic" concurrently while having the U.S. willing to ignore ALL opposition - that is a contradiction, not instinct. Instinct would be this: we want oil, we want to dominate, we want power, and thus we fight. This is not instinct: we want to liberate Iraq, we want its people to live more happily, we want a democratic world, we want world peace...this is a lie.

    The U.S. lies, and does not know how to lie, for that matter. Instinct is a reflex.

    Instinct would be you hitting me and me hitting back. But for me to go your house, and WILLINGLY rob you AND murder you: that is not an instinct, it is a course of planned action, with strategy and motive, nothing of a reflex. That is called criminal CONSCIOUS. If instincts are criminal, so let them be…but what we are not talking about instincts here: we are talking about deliberation, not reflexes.

    You seem to have confused the two.
  10. train The Wildcard!!!...

    And wasting time doing so...
  11. Zhaneel Resident Gryphon Queen

    What do you propose we do after such a war? Do you honestly think democracy will work?
  12. train The Wildcard!!!...

    Such a war as... war with Iraq?...

    Well... Iraq's people have voted for other parties to take control of it's government, but it just hasn't happened yet... why - some of them have been killed, so why not help the iraqi citizens establish the type of government they want to establish and then, while working with said government, provide enough aid to better their lives.

    I'm pretty sure they'd be happy to receive economic, and humanitarian aid. I'm betting they're surprised that the military didn't let the fishermen drown, and were instead pulled aboard one of our ships...

    "We're not over there to destroy iraqi civillians, or even their military, we're there to disarm their mass destruction capabilities..." - That's a load of crap... More than likely we're over there to rid them of some weapons and establish a new government. It's all political agenda, but among the details of this agenda, a threat to our nation is eradicated... and i'm all for it... Either way - Fire away...

    The advantage of going to war is that if Saddam is killed - it wasn't an assassination, he's just a casualty...

    either way - we need to get it over with...

    There's not a single UN country getting in our way for a reason... we have a strong enough upperhand to do exactly as we please... though it is not taken to the level of world dictatorship... we'd be strong enough to do so...
  13. DÛke Memento Mori

    ...

    There shall come a day when regret becomes a painful understatement, a day where seeing blood spluttering is never an overstatement, but always a joyful moment. Every deliberate arrogance has thus far fallen, every blindness has been treated...it walked, it ran, then it flied, but then it fell and died – why? It forgot it was blinded, but overlooked itself, its sheer decadence, and decided that it was fit enough…but little does it know…O how little it knows…

    Two-dimensional vision is common.

    We, we who see in four-dimension, must not hold contempt against our lower, weaker, counterparts. They are five-dimension in power, we are merely one-dimension in that area. But power without vision? Show me in history: where has it not fallen? It will fall again and again...

    ...and that is the day when regret becomes a painful understatement, the day where seeing blood spluttering is never an overstatement, but always a joyful moment...
  14. Zhaneel Resident Gryphon Queen

    Has it occured to anyone that a democracy in Iraq, if one were to actually be stable, wouldn't necessarily be pro-US?
  15. train The Wildcard!!!...

    No - not until you mentioned it...

    But that's why - as part of the political agenda - we "seed" people we want in the offices...

    I just don't think that after their lives are "bettered" they'd want to destroy us... a lot of their feelings now are due to propaganda anyway... and if you ask almost all of them what saddam has done specifically for them... I doubt an answer would leave their mouth... when asked about us, you'd hear everthing from health aid, and food aid to educational aid...

    *grins and thinks - just the right chance to brainwash them...*:p
  16. Svenmonkey Pants Chancellor

    They said that on NPR yesterday.

    One of today's Svenmonkey thoughts is that democracy just doesn't work in areas where religion and military power are everything and go hand in hand. They'd just re-elect a religious leader or warlord from when he was popular until death, and eventually he'd just tire of the elections and throw out the constitution with the help of his assassins and puppet senate. It's quite obvious that those are the most easily subjugated / indoctrinated people ever.
  17. Thallid Ice Cream Man 21sT CeNTuRy sChIZoId MaN

    This starts sort of off-topic, but bear with me.

    What I find most sickening is when people compare this to World War II. They say that the current efforts in favor of peace are equivalent to the Munich appeasement. The implication is that now we can prevent something like that from happening.

    There are two mistakes with this philosophy.

    First, realize that the international community is much more able to handle someone like Hitler today than it was then. In fact, everyone is paying attention to this situation, which is fairly more than could be said for the situation in Germany in the mid-late 30s. We have institutions, like the UN, that are as committed to stopping unilateral "sign-away everything" appeasement* as Bush is (although with different reasons). Hopefully the fact that Bush Sr. went to the UN for support and played the international game says something. (Although I think he's a jerk, I actually have about the same respect for him that Multani has for you.)
    The war in Kuwait was probably parallel to the Munich appeasement and what some feel should have come from it.

    Second, realize that there are multiple options. It isn't just a matter of going to war or doing nothing.
    You could force it down to two options by saying "going to war" and "not going to war," but even then the question of "how?" will come up. We're going to have to be careful
    I heard from a friend of a friend that a lot of people at the Pentagon are against the war, and presumably they're the ones who know. Hopefully they're the ones who know, or this country is in a worse situation than I thought it was.

    There are consequences for going to war without a serious decision, just as there are consequences for having peace without a serious decision. Peace is generally better though.

    More than half of the population of Iraq is under 15 years old.
    Assuming that your ideal future doesn't involve the entirety of Iraq being wiped out† (if it does, we can't do anything to help you, and we should stop here)...

    ... there are still going to be a lot of kids growing up in a world with even more hardship than is usual for Iraq (which is more than is usual for the US of course). They will have been put here, in their minds, by the United States. In any group there are those with violent tendencies. Not everyone is this way, but some are, and most of those people might unite in hatred of the US, and general, ill-informed contempt of nations on the wayside of this debate now (nations housing more than 80% of the world's population).

    It'd be like in another medium sized country called Germany, that proceeded to declare war on all the untermenschen living, conveniently enough, outside their borders. The Nazi movement worked best with the young. These young became Nazi soldiers when they were old enough (and most were old enough in time for World War II).
    In this case not as much work would be necessary to make the most vocal and violent of the youths into a powerful force. The reason is not because Iraqis are more violent than others, or
    The reason is that they know that the most powerful nation in the world elected someone whose mission was to pummel Iraq.
    And they will get mad, and from them (or perhaps with their loyal support) will emerge a strong leader, perhaps on the level of Saddam Hussein.
    Should we send the next generation or two of Americans into the deserts of Iraq to kill that next person or should we think differently, now?


    As it happens, if we have a war, my consolation will be that Bush had no sons. One of the few advantages of the hatred, stupidity, and specifically sexism in our electoral system is that no more Bush presidents will hold office -- at least for a few decades.

    *I'm not trying to take a moral high ground. That's what Tony Blair is doing. There can only be so many moral high grounds before moral high grounds stop being useful in arguments.

    Saying "Peace!" and saying "War" are equally stupid. Yet I went to a peace protest today and held up a sign that said Peace. More people saying peace and less not talking means more uncertainty, which is enough to make many people start thinking critically. That's what I want, not just for this war but for the world.

    †I know DÛke doesn't want the children of Iraq to be wiped out so consider this post (and the following comment) aimed mostly at train, and/or any other lurker who decides to post.

    I'm pretty sure you have made your own personal decision. I'm not saying this whole thing specifically to change your mind, but just to make sure that everyone considering war has seen many points of view. Not all people for war have the same reasons, and the people against it have different reasons too.


    EDIT: DÛke: You made some points about opposition and protest that I noticed when I remembered to read [/b]both pages[/b] :rolleyes: after my post.
    I want to respond specifically to your thoughts about protest. I've said some of this stuff above but the more we clarify this stuff the better.

    I agree that those who disagree are not necessarily righteous. They and those in favor of this war are perhaps equally wrong in that they both favor concepts that aren't automatically best for the hope of development of humanity.

    But they get brownie points for at least doing something.
    Train is fortunate enough to be in recognition of his laziness. Most people don't even have that. We must be thankful for what stupidity we have :)p).

    I protested because the more that people who aren't easily definable as pro war or as dirty Iraqis or frenchies or sissy europeans talk, the more people think.

    I intend to keep protesting about stuff as I grow older. Hopefully in my eyes and in yours that won't make me a coward. I recognize that this war is in some way related to the disparity in comfort between my life and the lives of others. Comfort isn't actually all that good, I'm beginning to realize. My life instead of comfort will probably involve stuff like protest. I hope then I won't be a coward, for my sake, because I understand exactly what you mean and I want to avoid that state as much as you do.
  18. DÛke Memento Mori

    O train! How more ignorant can you be! Maybe you did not realize this (you are not to blame) - so let me open your eyes: I am from Iraq. As an Iraqi who had lived there, who have seen what Saddam has done, who willfully and honestly admits that Saddam is a criminal beyond many criminals...I will still be more honest and say that, as an Iraqi, I rather die on the hands of Saddam rather than Bush. I rather have a regime, a violent one to be exact, rather than your brain-washing, stupid-loving, sheep-oinking "democracy."

    All Iraqi’s secretly hate Saddam – even those who say they “admire” him, and if they do loudly proclaim that they adore him, than it is out of fear and intimidation, not sincerity. The fact remains, that many – many – Iraqis dislike the United States’ government with an awe-inspiring passion. Unlike you, the Iraqis know what the U.S. is after, and after all, the sanctions that they have everlastingly suffered from are, in part, U.S. directed. You see, they do realize Saddam had done them harm, but to complete that, they realize that the U.S. has done harm to them as well. Maybe in your mind there rests a delusion, a lie, a ghostly ghost - so let me have the pleasure of ripping you apart from it and cleaning your foggy eyes all the while - such a wishful thinking that tries to believe itself when it says that the Iraqis will even begin to remotely “admire” the U.S., such false and uninformed confidence...let me tell you: knowing my pathetic culture more than you will ever know, such a belief is a dream that only the sick and contaminated like to fantasize about.

    Pathetic – that is what I call all cultures. There are, however, higher cultures, and frankly, ask any non-American, you will mostly realize that the Iraqi culture is more elevated and intelligent than what your "democracy" and "free speech" and "free press" has ever taught you. To me, they are still weak animals, simply for having a culture at all, but in the eyes of the world – the Iraqi culture is, by far, a decency that the Americans (apologies to very few) cannot, ever, attain. Let me remind you that Iraqis have been through tough times - truly tough times that I have even experienced - we have more experience with pain, with tears, with death, with blood...what do you have? Video-games, porn, internet...and by all means, a pity and misery that you so dearly call a "life" - a shallowness of shallowness, a lack of experience of what life is. Your little painless world has blinded you. Tell me, what is the most miserable moment you have ever experienced? Your wife (?) denied you sex? A video-game was delayed? What is your most profound experience - playing The Sims?

    I, amongst many around the world who have lived wars, speak out of ancient pains, tears, blood, losses...from what passion do you speak?

    Finally, if you want to listen to an all too worldly person...I suggest you listen to a spirit that the sun is willing to shine upon: listen to Alex (TICM), whom you are, at least, willing to consider as a "fellow American."

    Alex: Honestly, I do smile out of admiration when I hear of the protests. However, like said, the protests are years too late. I talked to some Iraqis, they too feel the same way I do: that the sanctions, amongst many other things, were originally an unjust punishment towards an innocent Iraqi population - a punishment that lasted for so many years. Let me give you a bit of advice: if you are going to be a protestant (much like I have become)...try to be more worldly and less inwardly (like me) - I'm sure, somewhere in you, you know what I mean by "inwardly." :)
  19. train The Wildcard!!!...

    I guess the secret's out...:eek: :p

    Knowing my uncle was murdered for a bottle of alcohol...

    So do I understand how senseless some killing is yes... and I still say get it over with... and honestly - i'd rather not see any Iraqi civilian lives lost, but that is not a possibility... to rid Iraq and the world of Saddam, he has to die, and innocent civilians with him...

    Just like to rid the world of our president, if another country planned to do so, innocent civilians would have to die...

    That's why it needs to be over with... asap...

    "Patience is never rewarded, until an action has been performed..."

    Like I said we are all fed the propaganda, but to choose one of equal evils, does not make a better life to live upon.

    And I have, and even admitted it may not be right by realizing the different points of view. But... even Multani stated that at this stage, force was needed... it's a waste of everyone's time to not have this over with by now...

    And had the war been done with by now, had it started months ago... you may not have wasted your time protesting...

    i respect the protest, but when the protested action finally occurs... it is a sad thing to realize all that time and energy was wasted... to know your voice was heard, and not listened to... simply muffled into the daily stream of life, as we all are...

    That's all I'm concerned with... the actual threat that time can allow... don't waste time and eliminate the chance for threat from the targeted source...;)
  20. Thallid Ice Cream Man 21sT CeNTuRy sChIZoId MaN

    Wow.. I feel like I'm on one of those pseudo-religious propaganda posters they used to make in the USSR, with the sun shining and the face closeup etc. ... without the communism of course... :) The hyper "realistic" stuff. You art students might know what I mean.

    (Now to screw it up...;))
    I agree that it's futile to depend on your will, your voice changing one thing as big as this. Still I try anyway. Worth a shot, I think. And anyway you can change other people by trying, even if you don't get the exact result you want. Say what you want to say and need to say, and at least some things will go well.

    I may not be worldly really. What I do is think all the time about stuff that happens to me. Even if it means not doing some other stuff (like homework :p) I try to look at my mistakes, a whole lot.

    Not that you don't, and this brings me to my other point. We each have done some of the same stuff, and a lot of other things that make us unique. So I'm not as cynical as either of you two yet (being younger and having been relatively sheltered in my early youth helped).
    The more cynical most people are, the less likely they are to believe something else I think is true at this point in my life.
    This world is so complicated that all kinds of oink can happen when you do stuff. So if you do what you think is good, hopefully things will improve in some small way.

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