Bush, anyone?

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by Zhaneel, Feb 18, 2003.

  1. Multani Treetrunk Guy

    "It is true that a single pebble can unleash a flood, but that's only assuming a single pebble was holding back a flood in the first place..."
  2. Zhaneel Resident Gryphon Queen

    Well, yeah. Especially since I'm going to college in the US somewhere.
  3. train The Wildcard!!!...

    You could come to Angelo State Zhaneel - we could use some Magic playing females down here...

    As for the rise of the third roman empire...

    It's about time a Texan made things happen...
  4. Zhaneel Resident Gryphon Queen

    *sigh* Texas...
  5. Svenmonkey Pants Chancellor

    Of course, "making things happen" would mean, "making war just for fun," right?
  6. train The Wildcard!!!...

    Well, that...

    and inviting everyone to the barbecue...;) :cool:

    But honestly... TX is the only state allowed by the U.S. to fly it's state flag at the same level as the U.S. flag for a reason... And without TX joining the U.S. Canada might not have stayed so large in size...

    Many a tough man has come from this state... the rest of the tough men spent a lot of time here... It's like a breeding pool for non-pacifists... and war-activists...

    except in Austin...

    we need to get rid of a lot of the minds in that part of the state... I think the pinkness of the capitol attracted them to Austin, and they never left... :rolleyes:
  7. Multani Treetrunk Guy

    War is fun...that is until American civilians and troops start dying. Right now, to all you people, war is just a game. You see on TV, the little cross-hairs on the smart bombs and you think, "wow! cool!" You don't even take the minute to realize that there were people in the building, which that smart bomb hit...that most likely those people were dead. That's right. Believe it or not, the enemy is human...just like you, and probably with a family, kids, and their own ambitions.

    Today, because of the fact that America is a superpower and is the strongest power in the world, people in the 'States are jaded by the moral butchering that War creates. They've gotten so arrogant that they think they're better than everyone else. Oh sure, they'll give reasons and some of them may even sound logical, but deep down, we're full of ourselves. We think we're invicible and that it gives us the right to treat all the other countries in the world as second-class members of the global community. And I say we because I AM an American. And it's at times like these that I feel filthy for owning that blue little book, called a passport.

    And so far...no one. NOT a single War supporter has thought about the hypocrisy of their actions; the hypocrisy of their words. No one has taken the time or frankly don't care just how hypocritical this entire proposal for war with Iraq is. We've become arrogant hypocrites...we've become sheep under the government...under the atrocitous monstrosity that George W. Bush has spun.

    And you know what, train? I admire you for your openess. For you to go on this board and openly admit, "Yes! We're powerful. Yes! We're gonna kick everyone's ass and not give a second thought about it." I admire that. You're bluntness and honesty is something that I think is no longer a part of the American spirit. Nowadays, honesty is frowned upon. The government and the media manipulate and lie to us everyday. The truth no longer matters.

    And to those Americans...hell, to ANYONE that thinks that war is the solution to Iraq. To anyone that thinks War is FUN...all I can do is to nod my head at their ignorance; their stupidity; their arrogance; and their general uneducated thoughts...
    The threat of war of Iraq has shown me just how uneducated as a people we are; just how ignorant we are of the world at large; just how uncaring, vicious and brutal we've become... I was right. We ARE looking at the rise of the Third Roman Empire...but unlike the original ones, this new empire clothes itself in words such as Democracy! Justice! Freedom! And just like the old dictators of past times, it charms those and blinds the weak, and quietly (or not so quietly) eliminates those that would dare oppose its intentions. Freedom of speech? Freedom of expression? Take a look out there! Anti-war protesters are ridiculed by the media. 'Evidence' against Iraq is created out of thin air without justifications, without any facts.

    Huh. It seems the world truly has gone mad now, and people who are calm-headed have become the enemies. People who would advocate a civilized and dipomatic approach are scoffed at as being weak. It seems the human race has gone full circle, for as I see it, we're now nothing more than a group of barbarians; uncivilized animals who possess terrific and awesome technology, and we choose to use it to destroy...it's the law of the jungle. But unfortuately, people like train don't take the time to philsophically reflect; to think about the consequences...no. To them, that's considered weak. And then it occurs to them that the only human race did not become great, because of doing...we became great because of thinking...we became great because of logic and reasoning; we are humans because we can get past the normal inter-clan rivalries and petty violence that wild animals indulge in. But perhaps, from the look of things, humanity may soon prove itself to have been just another species of animal after all...no different from gorillas, monkeys, lions and sharks...
  8. train The Wildcard!!!...

    It's not weak... the reason I say that is because the mind is the most powerful weapon we have... and not using the most powerful weapon each time we have the chance - causes it to rust... as such - it is a waste of time, and the mind..

    so...

    if action is not taken before another's mind goes beyond reason, and acts on it's own, their mind has become a weapon of destruction, only more destruction can stop it... and it has to come from somewhere...

    Something is going to get destroyed... does it matter where, as long as it's not here, no... does it matter why... we know why - because a mind was let loose upon the masses, and the only thing to look forward to is destruction... does it matter when... yes...

    that's the one preventative measure we can take... when... and/or if...

    it's like a game of chess... the mind can only survive on thought for so long... then action must occur... no matter how much time it takes to think... the action takes much less time... why - because it is an end to the mean... it answers the question of what are we going to do... it's done... so there's no longer a question...

    Do I understand that full nuclear war can break out - yes... and personally... I know that goodfellow - right next door to me - is one of the military's most prolific intelligence training bases... along with the stealth bombers only 80 miles away highway... maybe 60 as the crow flies...

    so I'm a target... plain and simple... but If I'm going to go... i want to have at least gotten a shot or two off...

    And that's the most important thing - to not let my mind go to waste... to not let any mind go to waste... but as one thinks too long... and action occurs around that person... all their thought has gone to waste...

    and honestly... when we all look at the actions mankind takes each and every day - we are no better than the animals listed by multani... we may not even be equals... for they do this to survive... and we do it because another mind has gone mad...

    But thanks for the compliment on bluntness and honesty multani...:cool:
  9. Zhaneel Resident Gryphon Queen

    That's the thinking that scares and saddens me: 'As long as it's not Americans dying, it's okay. As long as it's not on our soil, it's okay.' Hello, these are people out there, as much as war-mongers would have us think otherwise. That's a natural part of war - dehumanization. It scares me a lot to think that people are so damned egocentric as to think an American life is worth more than any other. And no, I don't want it to be on our soil either. But it's not okay at all.
  10. Lotus Mox New Member

    I'd really like to get this answered by someone. With answers that contain more truth than propaganda lies, please.

    e.g. I don't want a paper, badly faked by some British Secret Service, of Iraq trying to get nuclear material from Nigeria, signed by a Foreign Minister who wasn't Foreign Minister at the time. Not to mention that the head of the letter was wrong too.
    Or the Bush warriors loudly proclaiming that Kamal Hussein (Saddam later ordered his death after he gave him an "amnesty") said that Iraq produced 30,000 liter Anthrax and other B-Weapons, while not telling anyone that the same Kamal Hussein also clamied that this and other material has been destroyed by his order.

    And that are just some examples of lies and tricks regimes use and used to get "noble" reasons for a war.

    The real reason for war, is "simply" some people's desire of getting control of the world through the most important substance in this time and age: oil. The war in Iraq could gain the US (and I think some British) oil companies 2.8 trillon $.

    But parts of the Bush administration want to make it look like a 11th century crusade of Good vs. Evil*, and why ppl fall for this is something I'll never completely understand.

    France and Russia are mainly against the war because they likely get some oil in the "no-war" case.
    Germany, well, Schroeder had to win an election in a rather pacifistic land, and since he wasn't all that popular, he had to resort to a 100% anti-war statement to win the election. Democracy or Populism? your choice...

    train: Do you have some emphaty for all the dying and starving iraqi kids during a war (and the embargo)? or can you only feel for USians?

    ---------
    *In reality, it's Lesser Evil vs. Evil, and that's debatable
  11. Svenmonkey Pants Chancellor

    It's rather clear that we aren't trying to get rid of oppressive governments or a threat to our security, for if we were doing such, we'd have troops surrounding that worthless little Israel. Heck, if we cared at all about "homeland security" we'd sever all ties with Israel, for that's the main reason why the Middle East hates us so much.

    It seems like this little push for war is all about flexing our military's overgrown, overfunded muscle.
  12. Multani Treetrunk Guy

    Train: Let me get this straight...You're the type of person that will fire a gun, at a random innocent target every month or so to make sure the gun is working??? I'm sorry, but to me, that is possible the MOST inhumane thing I've heard anywhere.

    You're so one-dimensional in you're thinking that you always only see one option; force. That was what we did 1000 years ago. That was when world communication was an impossibility; when the best way to resolve conflicts was the fist; when there was no such thing as international law or cooperation. But that was why we were primitve 1000 years ago.

    By you're philosophy, if we don't use our excellent global communications for peaceful purposes, would that be putting our ability to instantaneously keep in touch with the world, to waste? The concept that something must be used in order to be maintained is not always true; nor is it always appropriate. When are you going to realize that this is the 21st century? When are you going to realize that by going back to the selfish nationalistic ideals of old, that we're throwing away almost a hundred years worth of progress toward global cooperation, and international justice, law, and order?

    But I suppose you're one of those people that simply feels the need to lash out at something; anything...just to show the world you can. You no longer care about the cruel, the despotic, and the downright, and I normally NEVER use this term, EVIL and bloodthirsty image you create. If I were to analyze the way that the U.S. is currently using force, I'd say, like a bully who must always rely on his fist, that he's compensating for certain, shall we say, shortcommings.

    Ah, if only you studied history. You'd be able to see the historic patterns that are once again emerging. Time after time, war has never been fought for moral reasons. War is ALL about gaining an upperhand over the rest of the world. It's ALL about land, economic reasons, or resources. RARELY is war truly fought because of a supposedly impending threat. Really, if that were the case, why didn't the U.S. go to war with the U.S.S.R. 50 years ago??? It's because the U.S. would have had little to gain, and everything to use. You're wrong when you say you have to look at everything like a chess game. Chess is a two-player game. The world is no longer bi-polar. Rather, the world nowadays functions more on an economic model; losses to profits. Gains vs. possible setbacks.

    If you've read history, you'd realize that the prelude to every empire, is a cycle of economic hardship, followed by conflict, and then cemented with the enpowerment of a despotic regime. I think that we are very close to seeing that cycle right now. One can only hope that the constitutional system that was created 300 years ago, will hold against would-be greedy leaders, like Bush, and perhaps his successors. But every system, no matter how just and fair, relies on the people to maintain; and so long as the people are moral-less idiots; selfish, arrogant animals, people like Bush will be able to push through the crap through the people in order to market a venture like a war with Iraq.

    But again, I commend you for being open. Even though you're response proved my point, I commend you. With most people, it would have taken an entire debate just to get them to admit their true feelings and beliefs. You're honesty is truly a welcome relief, however misguided that honesty is; it's more than can be said even for governments...most especially the current administration...

    Lotus: Train has openly admited he's applying a double standard. You can not get past a closed mind. Don't even bother trying. Simply accept that he believes U.S. lives are worth more than other lives. Apparently, he's past the moral and ethical implications of that statement, and there's nothing we can do to change that.
  13. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    I have to agree that I don't see any real reason for going to war with Iraq. Though they may be pretending to cooperate again with the UN inspections and missile destructions, at least they're doing something.

    Following Bush's reasoning, I think North Korea is the bigger threat since they're actively trying to start their nuclear plant, kicking out UN inspectors, etc. And they're NOT trying to cooperate.

    However, I don't think this is about oil, as the US buys most of their oil from other sources (South America, other OPEC countries, Canada, Alaska). This could just be a personal vendetta since an assassination plot had been foiled when Bush Sr. was president which also would have killed Laura Bush.

    However, I think using the argument "American lives are the same as any other" is hypocritical of those using it unless those using it have indeed demonstrated that they care about other lives, since there's tons of suffering in the world. I will say flat out that yeah, I live in America and as the world is not unified yet, I do consider American lives to be more important if it comes down to combat. I worry about needless civilian casualties, but unless you can show me that the US military has been going on blood-filled massacres in recent combat actions from the 80's onward (when this type of thing became more aware than say, from the Vietnam War), I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.
  14. Mazzak Stylemongering Protodeity

    A bit off topic, but I am very annoyed that the U.S. thinks it has the right to decide what technology a country is allowed to have. More power to North Korea for doing what they want and telling the U.S. to piss off.
  15. DÛke Memento Mori

    ...

    I would leave worldly politics to the all too worldly...but some things, I feel, I must say:
    It is about time someone thinks this way. Frankly, I do not give a damn how rich the United States is, how powerful, how arrogant, how peaceful and angelic, just as it has the right to preach and create tools of death, so does everyone else. I despise the United States for playing the role of god amongst others, for preaching "democracy" all the while it openly admits that it will go to war even without any UN support. How...undemocratic. But again, for us to fool ourselves and pretend that the U.S. is democratic at all, that is a joke long past. Giving the people what they want no matter how stupid the population is - I do not call that democracy. Democracy requires a healthy population to function healthily.
    Ah..."Bush's reasoning" - that is a statement that does not sound right. :)
    It's not all about the oil. Only 99% of it is. Like you said, the U.S. buys the oil, and why would you want to buy it when you could just take it? No, not just take it, but gain control of one of the largest oil suppliers in the world, meaning a complete control over the world's oil economy, and thus, all of economy in general. As for the "personal vendetta" argument - a leader with a "personal vendetta," I thought we long past the revenge method few centuries ago, when downright personal gain was the mere reason? But I guess some of us are still trapped in the past, even though they might not show it on the surface, with all their technology...
    That is an acceptable reason, and I agree with you completely. I will not pretend that I care about the entire world - I do not think anyone does. But I do care in general - and I think most of us do. However the reason why this argument is used is solely because of the outcry that the U.S. had sustained when it was terrorized, when American's wailed as if something tragic had happened, when they wanted sympathy from the entire world and sadly, got it. If we look all of it, the American "tragedy" was not a tragedy at all. 3000+ victims? Seriously, why is that important in the context of the world's tragic history? Ah...you see, it is NOT important, only when you say: "3000+ AMERICAN victims on their OWN SOIL," that makes the difference TO AMERICANS, but still, to the world that HAVE seen the face of war, to me personally even, who lived through the war between Iraq and Iran, the Gulf War, and I am now seeing THIS coming war...do you think I VALUE 3000+ lives, no matter WHO they are? With all honesty, I do not care much. I have seen worse.

    The United States, believe it or not, is a bigger threat to the world than Iraq and Korea combined - never have we seen such an open defince to the U.N....I feel less secure with such a defiant beast than a small little devil called Saddam who has not the ability to do anything...
  16. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    I think the US is within their right when it's [/i]their[/i] technology. Although I don't think that is the case anyway; North Korea already has the technology, they were just stopped from using it. Now they want to use it again...

    Which I think would be fine anyway if they aren't trying to use it as blackmail. Because of their dopey communist system which is not working, most of the country is hungry/poor/not too well off (except those in power). They already get food from the US and other sources which most likely is mostly diverted to those in power (otherwise there'd be results). Yet they always want more from others than trying to fix it themselves...

    I disagree about the oil. If we wanted it, we could have taken it back in '91. And obviously OPEC doesn't see it that way as they're not banding together in a concerted protest to stop it; in fact, they're saying they're going to raise production if war breaks out.

    I agree with this as even Americans didn't raise that big of an outcry when the African embassies were bombed or even when the warship was "attacked" in Yemen. Americans were killed yet it was "not on our soil".

    The US is only a threat because of its inclinations of its leader, which happens to be Bush right now. Take away him, and it's not too bad. We'll see what happens in 2 years...
  17. train The Wildcard!!!...

    No, but I will fire at the ones posing a threat to me... it's all about perception... and I'm usually a sleeping activist... something wakes me and I take action... but to wake me - it must be posing a threat...

    We're just as primitive now... our minds haven't evolved... that's why we have the death penalty... except we inject, or shock rather than quarter or burn... And I don't see all this talking getting us anywhere... no matter how many times in history negotiations were made - force was used... either before, during or after...

    What has been maintained that has not been used???

    All this progress has us at the brink of war... It is the progress that created the weapons we'll use to bring us out of progression... how ironic...

    ESPECIALLY those darn Blue players...

    specifically - not finishing the job the first time...

    We already have the upperhand over the rest of the world...

    Let's get it over with then...

    Thanks...
  18. DÛke Memento Mori

    ...

    I agree with what train has said above.

    Seriously.
  19. Multani Treetrunk Guy

    Train:

    And who exactly do you percieve as a threat? To a selfish human, everyone can be a threat...does that mean you will fire on everyone? How do you recognize a threat? How do you recognize what WILL be a threat? Human perception is a poor judge. Right now, apparently, Bush is letting paranoia guide his actions...that or religious arrogance.

    I beg to differ. To say that we haven't evolved in one way or another; to say we haven't changed in one way or another, is complete rubish. Just look around? Granted, technological change is superficial, it still has affected humanity to one degree or another. And it is true that in most instances, force was used even in the presence of negotiations...but for the last 50 or odd years, at least the pretext of negotiation has been more present than blatant force! True, at this stage, force has to back up negotiation, but for the first time in history, negotiation is the NORM rather than a backdrop for armed conflict. Bush threatens to turn all that back...he threatens to plunge us back into a past where it is armed conflict, and not diplomacy; not civilized behavior that is the judge. He threatens to turn back the hands of time on the world. I'm not foolish enough to believe we're all civilized and perfect; but I'm also not so cynical to believe that absolutely no progress has been made...

    That's circular logic. I don't know whether you've misunderstood my words or not, but I stated that maintainance does not always have to involve actively using the object. For example, a gun. Is regularly firing it, and I mean REGULARLY considered a prequisite to maintaining the weapon? Or an antique car? Do you always have to drive it down the highway every week to make sure it works? In the past, that may have been, but we're slowly moving away from that. No longer must we have to constantly use something just to make sure it works...

    It is also this progress that has brought about an international forum for discussion. An attempt at true international law. Unfortunately, there are people like George W. Bush, who are determined to use the more negative aspects of progress, in order, and I quote you, "bring us out of progression..."

    ...Or perhaps a faltering economy? History has repeated itself yet again...armed conflict distracts from an ailing economy....and serves to fool the citizens.

    You can never have to much of an 'upperhand'. Besides, the U.S. still doesn't (though its perilously close) have the ability to literally command the world. It must still, to a degree function within the rules of the present global order, even though it's fast deteriorating.

    And the most damning words of all...

    Really? It doesn't concern you that you're being lied too? It doesn't bother you that a madman is blind-folding you and spoonfeeding you propaganda to launch an act of blatant aggression?! It doesn't bother you that Bush may be destabilizing and already fragile world order??? And what's more, you know about it, and choose to be lied to without fighting back?!

    No wonder you're so cynical. You simply don't care. All you want is to see petty bloodlust. All you want is to see the world crushed under the boots of U.S. soldiers...


    DUke:
    I must admit, that Train's words possess nuggets of truth, and that he probably represents an interesting model of aspects of humanity today.

    Still, you can see the faults of this model, can't you? You can see the arrogance, the callousness, and the general cruelty of humanity today, can't you?

    I am puzzled by you words though. Perhaps you can elaborate?


    Spidey:
    Taking away Bush himself may not be the solution. It's like killing Saddam to end a corrupt regime in Iraq. There will always be able replacements. What's needed, is a completely new shift in American foreign policy; cooperation, instead of forceful dominance; display of military force; and strongarming tactics. What we need, is a moderate leader, someone whom I don't see coming up in the near future, most likely because of the havoc that has been wreaked by the Bush administration, and the Republican dominated congress...
  20. Bob Idiot

    I know someone named Bill. Bill is a typical American. He is brainwashed by the media and use of words like "Freedom! Justice! Liberty!". He thinks War is a big, fun joke. He loves reading books about WW2, and wishes he was there to kill the Nazis. He wishes he was back in the American Revolution, with a high-powered machine gun, killing the British.
    Bill loves Bush and believes he's a hero and a great president. He can understand that poor, innocent Americans were killed in 9/11/01, but he doesn't think about the poor, innocent Arabs who are killed every single day in Iraq by the US bombs. He sees the Iraqis dying and thinks "YEAH!" He wants to join the Army and kill Iraqis. He thinks just because Iraq has an evil dictator that all Iraqis must be evil too.

    I've tried to talk sense to him, but I don't want to anger a gun-toting, hunting, NRA maniac like him.

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