M
Multani
Guest
"It is true that a single pebble can unleash a flood, but that's only assuming a single pebble was holding back a flood in the first place..."
Well, that...Of course, "making things happen" would mean, "making war just for fun," right?
It's not weak... the reason I say that is because the mind is the most powerful weapon we have... and not using the most powerful weapon each time we have the chance - causes it to rust... as such - it is a waste of time, and the mind..But unfortuately, people like train don't take the time to philsophically reflect; to think about the consequences...no. To them, that's considered weak.
That's the thinking that scares and saddens me: 'As long as it's not Americans dying, it's okay. As long as it's not on our soil, it's okay.' Hello, these are people out there, as much as war-mongers would have us think otherwise. That's a natural part of war - dehumanization. It scares me a lot to think that people are so damned egocentric as to think an American life is worth more than any other. And no, I don't want it to be on our soil either. But it's not okay at all.Originally posted by train
Something is going to get destroyed... does it matter where, as long as it's not here, no...
I'd really like to get this answered by someone. With answers that contain more truth than propaganda lies, please.Originally posted by Zhaneel
And perhaps someone can explain to me exactly how Iraq is a direct threat to the US.
It is about time someone thinks this way. Frankly, I do not give a damn how rich the United States is, how powerful, how arrogant, how peaceful and angelic, just as it has the right to preach and create tools of death, so does everyone else. I despise the United States for playing the role of god amongst others, for preaching "democracy" all the while it openly admits that it will go to war even without any UN support. How...undemocratic. But again, for us to fool ourselves and pretend that the U.S. is democratic at all, that is a joke long past. Giving the people what they want no matter how stupid the population is - I do not call that democracy. Democracy requires a healthy population to function healthily.Mazzak:
A bit off topic, but I am very annoyed that the U.S. thinks it has the right to decide what technology a country is allowed to have. More power to North Korea for doing what they want and telling the U.S. to piss off.
Ah..."Bush's reasoning" - that is a statement that does not sound right.Spiderman:
Following Bush's reasoning, I think North Korea is the bigger threat since they're actively trying to start their nuclear plant, kicking out UN inspectors, etc. And they're NOT trying to cooperate.
It's not all about the oil. Only 99% of it is. Like you said, the U.S. buys the oil, and why would you want to buy it when you could just take it? No, not just take it, but gain control of one of the largest oil suppliers in the world, meaning a complete control over the world's oil economy, and thus, all of economy in general. As for the "personal vendetta" argument - a leader with a "personal vendetta," I thought we long past the revenge method few centuries ago, when downright personal gain was the mere reason? But I guess some of us are still trapped in the past, even though they might not show it on the surface, with all their technology...Bush:
However, I don't think this is about oil...
That is an acceptable reason, and I agree with you completely. I will not pretend that I care about the entire world - I do not think anyone does. But I do care in general - and I think most of us do. However the reason why this argument is used is solely because of the outcry that the U.S. had sustained when it was terrorized, when American's wailed as if something tragic had happened, when they wanted sympathy from the entire world and sadly, got it. If we look all of it, the American "tragedy" was not a tragedy at all. 3000+ victims? Seriously, why is that important in the context of the world's tragic history? Ah...you see, it is NOT important, only when you say: "3000+ AMERICAN victims on their OWN SOIL," that makes the difference TO AMERICANS, but still, to the world that HAVE seen the face of war, to me personally even, who lived through the war between Iraq and Iran, the Gulf War, and I am now seeing THIS coming war...do you think I VALUE 3000+ lives, no matter WHO they are? With all honesty, I do not care much. I have seen worse.Spiderman:
However, I think using the argument "American lives are the same as any other" is hypocritical of those using it unless those using it have indeed demonstrated that they care about other lives, since there's tons of suffering in the world.
I agree with this as even Americans didn't raise that big of an outcry when the African embassies were bombed or even when the warship was "attacked" in Yemen. Americans were killed yet it was "not on our soil".you see, it is NOT important, only when you say: "3000+ AMERICAN victims on their OWN SOIL
No, but I will fire at the ones posing a threat to me... it's all about perception... and I'm usually a sleeping activist... something wakes me and I take action... but to wake me - it must be posing a threat...You're the type of person that will fire a gun, at a random innocent target every month or so to make sure the gun is working
We're just as primitive now... our minds haven't evolved... that's why we have the death penalty... except we inject, or shock rather than quarter or burn... And I don't see all this talking getting us anywhere... no matter how many times in history negotiations were made - force was used... either before, during or after...you always only see one option; force. That was what we did 1000 years ago. That was when world communication was an impossibility; when the best way to resolve conflicts was the fist; when there was no such thing as international law or cooperation.
What has been maintained that has not been used???The concept that something must be used in order to be maintained is not always true; nor is it always appropriate.
All this progress has us at the brink of war... It is the progress that created the weapons we'll use to bring us out of progression... how ironic...When are you going to realize that by going back to the selfish nationalistic ideals of old, that we're throwing away almost a hundred years worth of progress toward global cooperation, and international justice, law, and order?
ESPECIALLY those darn Blue players...But I suppose you're one of those people that simply feels the need to lash out at something; anything...just to show the world you can.
specifically - not finishing the job the first time...compensating for certain, shall we say, shortcommings.
We already have the upperhand over the rest of the world...War is ALL about gaining an upperhand over the rest of the world.
Let's get it over with then...Bush will be able to push through the crap through the people in order to market a venture like a war with Iraq.
Thanks...But again, I commend you for being open.
And who exactly do you percieve as a threat? To a selfish human, everyone can be a threat...does that mean you will fire on everyone? How do you recognize a threat? How do you recognize what WILL be a threat? Human perception is a poor judge. Right now, apparently, Bush is letting paranoia guide his actions...that or religious arrogance.No, but I will fire at the ones posing a threat to me... it's all about perception... and I'm usually a sleeping activist... something wakes me and I take action... but to wake me - it must be posing a threat...
I beg to differ. To say that we haven't evolved in one way or another; to say we haven't changed in one way or another, is complete rubish. Just look around? Granted, technological change is superficial, it still has affected humanity to one degree or another. And it is true that in most instances, force was used even in the presence of negotiations...but for the last 50 or odd years, at least the pretext of negotiation has been more present than blatant force! True, at this stage, force has to back up negotiation, but for the first time in history, negotiation is the NORM rather than a backdrop for armed conflict. Bush threatens to turn all that back...he threatens to plunge us back into a past where it is armed conflict, and not diplomacy; not civilized behavior that is the judge. He threatens to turn back the hands of time on the world. I'm not foolish enough to believe we're all civilized and perfect; but I'm also not so cynical to believe that absolutely no progress has been made...We're just as primitive now... our minds haven't evolved... that's why we have the death penalty... except we inject, or shock rather than quarter or burn... And I don't see all this talking getting us anywhere... no matter how many times in history negotiations were made - force was used... either before, during or after...
That's circular logic. I don't know whether you've misunderstood my words or not, but I stated that maintainance does not always have to involve actively using the object. For example, a gun. Is regularly firing it, and I mean REGULARLY considered a prequisite to maintaining the weapon? Or an antique car? Do you always have to drive it down the highway every week to make sure it works? In the past, that may have been, but we're slowly moving away from that. No longer must we have to constantly use something just to make sure it works...What has been maintained that has not been used???
It is also this progress that has brought about an international forum for discussion. An attempt at true international law. Unfortunately, there are people like George W. Bush, who are determined to use the more negative aspects of progress, in order, and I quote you, "bring us out of progression..."All this progress has us at the brink of war... It is the progress that created the weapons we'll use to bring us out of progression... how ironic...
...Or perhaps a faltering economy? History has repeated itself yet again...armed conflict distracts from an ailing economy....and serves to fool the citizens.specifically - not finishing the job the first time...
You can never have to much of an 'upperhand'. Besides, the U.S. still doesn't (though its perilously close) have the ability to literally command the world. It must still, to a degree function within the rules of the present global order, even though it's fast deteriorating.We already have the upperhand over the rest of the world...
Really? It doesn't concern you that you're being lied too? It doesn't bother you that a madman is blind-folding you and spoonfeeding you propaganda to launch an act of blatant aggression?! It doesn't bother you that Bush may be destabilizing and already fragile world order??? And what's more, you know about it, and choose to be lied to without fighting back?!quote:
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Bush will be able to push through the crap through the people in order to market a venture like a war with Iraq.
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Let's get it over with then...
I must admit, that Train's words possess nuggets of truth, and that he probably represents an interesting model of aspects of humanity today.I agree with what train has said above.
Seriously.