The deckdoctor is now in session!

Discussion in 'Casual Decks/Variants/Etc' started by Gizmo, Feb 29, 2000.

  1. Gizmo Composite: 1860

    Well, I think this deck`s problems can be divided into two types:

    1. Consistency
    This is a multiple-card combo, and you need to see it before you get beaten to death (and the award for most self-evident comment goes to...) as it also forms your main defense. Fortunately there is a very obvious answer to this problem - Enlightened Tutor.

    Enlightened Tutor, W, Instant (Uncommon Mirage/Classic)
    Search your library for an enchantment or artifact and put it on top of your library.

    With a couple of Enlightened Tutors in the deck it will become much easier to search out the combo parts you need.
    And even though the combo is cheap I think that 19 land is far too few, and I would try to step that up to 22/23, this also gives you the opportunity to play with some interesting lands from different sets, such as:
    Flood Plain (Mirage Uncommon)
    Stalking Stones (Tempest Uncommon)
    Forbidding Watchtower (Urza`s Legacy Uncommon)

    And it would also be a benefit to be able to draw extra cards from sources other than Howling Mine in case you don`t draw one. The best options are:
    Whispers Of The Muse (Tempest Uncommon)
    Jayemdae Tome (Basic Set Rare)
    Armistice (Masques Rare)

    2. Hardness
    By which I mean just how effective the lockout is when it hits play. In this case the combo is still vulnerable to:
    1. Non-combat damage.
    2. Enchantment removal. (and in multiplayer everybody will be using their Disenchants on the guy who threatens to stop them all with a single combo)

    The solutions are:
    1. More direct creature removal, such as Wrath Of God (a hard to get rare unfortunately) would be absolutely ideal, although Wrath is hard to find there is also Wave Of Destruction (Masques Rare) which does something similar. This also suggests using some standard defensive cards like countermagic, Disenchants etc where you currently have the additional combo of Mind Bend + random hoser.
    With another 4-8 countermagic in the deck it will be harder for your opponents to break it up, but in multiplayer you cannot hope to protect it from everybody for ever so you`ll probably need some really good fallback strategies such as Fat Motties and Sarah Angels. These are fine but something hard to kill like a Rainbow Efreet (Visions Rare), Ivory Gargoyle (Alliances Rare) Morphling (Urza` Saga Rare) would make your creature offense all the more certain to kill people.

    2. There are a few ways to protect or retrieve artifacts and enchantments, but most of them are rare. The best one is probably going to be Fountain Watch:

    Fountain Watch, WW3, Summon (Masques Rare)
    Artifacts and Enchantments you control cannot be the target of spells or abilities.

    But in multiplayer this guy has a HUGE crosshair on his chest and so you then need to protect HIM, and it all comes down to having enough countermagic to survive until everybody else dies. In multiplayer the strongest player is usually the one who ends up biting it first so it doesn`t do to look too threatening until the other players have burnt themselves out a bit fighting each other.

    Overall, I think your decklist simply plays with too many conditional spells, in other words cards "that are really good when..." or are "good when used with...", by which I am thinking of your Douse, Conversion, Mind Bend etc.
    I would try to play spells that are always going to be able to do a job for you as I think you will often have one half of a particular mini-combo and be sat witing for the Mind Bend to show up whilst your opponents are blowing your combo to pieces.
  2. Gumby Khan New Member

    Welcome, Gizmo! I also remember the old days of the dojo, but I am still a scrub. To answer your previous question, you can post in "Suggestions" what you would like your nickname to be (max. 15 characters including spaces) and it should be done within a day or so. Cool, huh?
    Another suggestion, maybe I'll post it "Suggestions" like I should, but I think your talents are way too good to be hidden here in one thread. Maybe they could open a new section for your exclusive attention and replies? We could call it, "Dr. Gizmo's HMO (Healthier Magic Options)"?
    Anyway, doc, it hurts when I go like this...

    We are holding a Modified Extended Tournament in a couple weeks and these are the additional rules;
    1. Only basic lands
    2. Only two artifacts total in deck and sideboard
    3. ALL spells must be 4cc or higher (X spells must be 4cc before you pay X, so Stroke of "Jesus!" is out)

    I'm thinking land destruction again (reference; another thread called "Mana-crush"), but I can't get a solid win situation. Here are my symptoms;

    17 Mountains
    11 Forests

    4 A. Riders (love these!)
    3 Goblin Gardners (suck!)
    4 Argothian Wurms (sometimes backfires on me)
    1 Silverglade Elemental (Forest fetcher)
    1 Argothian Elder (untap 2 lands!)
    3 Venomous Dragonfly (great chump blocker)

    4 Lay Waste (cycling...yumm)
    1 Rain of Salt
    4 Skyshroud Claim (fetches two forests!)
    2 Reverent Silence (free cc; destroy all enchantments)
    1 Creeping Mold
    4 Aftershocks (ouch!, but creature removal)

    4 Boil (Blue)
    2 Flashfires (white)
    2 Wildfire Emmissary (white)
    3 Refreshing Rain (black)
    1 shatterstorm (artifacts)
    3 Lightning Blast (creatures)

    Initial draw must have four lands and one land kill, which I do get with 28 lands and 14 direct kill and 7 indirect kill (wurms and gardners). If I can keep my opp at less than 4 lands, I can win with a wurm, but sometimes the wurm hurts me. I play wurm, he sacs a land, he draws and drops another land and plays a fattie; I draw wurm (wow, what are the odds?) and drop it to block fattie incoming, he sacs a land, I frown, repeat this four times, I'm dead. :( Can you help me refine the win strategy or define a new win strategy with this deck? I was thinking of taking gardners out for more creeping molds and maybe one 'Haups as a panic button. What would you prescribe?

    "I can ail what cures you."
    -Plague witch
  3. Gizmo Composite: 1860

    Ugh, yuck - this format sucks!
    But then I`m a tried and tested Sligh player, so maybe I`m just a leetle bit biased.

    I`m going to offer advice on the assumption that the usual suspects are banned and that Buyback spells are legal if you always make them cost 4cc+ with the Buyback.

    I think you shouldn`t be too concerned about using 4cc stuff as by turn 6 you will have 6 mana, so I would consider stuff like Wildfire to be worth some serious look-at, but you have to make sure you will come off best.
    But I think that with the landkill deck whoever gets the first turn will win - if you get it then they never see 4 mana, if they get it you never catch up. You need to be able to play with dual-function spells so that you can landkill or defend as the situation requires. Aftershock is one example, Wildfire another, but I think that dropping the Green and going out to Black for removal spells like Befoul would be a better plan.

    Phoenix From The Flames
    4 Avalanche Riders
    4 Bogardan Phoenix
    4 Aftershock
    4 Wildfire
    4 Flowstone Flood
    2 Seismic Mage
    2 Jokulhaups
    4 Befoul
    2 Snuff Out
    10 Swamp
    20 Mountain

    With this deck you have much more chance of defending yourself via the removal spells, and Bogardan Phoenix allows you to win the game in a Garglehaups fashion:
    Turn4: Landkill
    Turn5: Phoenix
    Turn6: Wildfire/Jokulhaups, return Phoenix, lay the beats unopposed.
    Flowstone Flood should be a win if you get to four mana first, same with Seismic Mage.

    But I think that blue is likely to be SO strong in this format as everything is moving slowly...

    4 Thwart
    4 Rewind
    4 Desertion
    4 Treachery
    4 Force Of Will
    4 Capsize
    4 Thieving Magpie
    2 Evacuation
    2 Thran Dynamo
    28 Islands

    Capsize would be monster-strong in this field, so this deck is basically capsize.dec with some complimentary other stuff like Treachery and Desertion. Basically this deck would win every time it saw four mana first, and with Evacuation, Treachery and Capsize, should be able to pull back if it falls behind.

    [Edited by Gizmo (03-07-2000 at 05:58 AM).]
  4. Gumby Khan New Member

    Thank you! I never even thought of going red/black. I'll give it a try and let you know what works. Although, I don't have any Phoenix and I can't think of a suitable substitute. I'll probably fill that slot with Ancient Hydra for beat and burn. I disagree with Jokulhaups, since it just resets the game, unless he has some enchantments out, then HE has the edge. I think I'll run Umbilicus instead, so I can bounce A. rider or Hydra before I pay their fade/echo. :) Also, Wildfire would hurt me, too, so I'll try 2 Rain of Salt and 2 Lay Waste. Sideboard will be tricky, but I think Massacre will help against black.

    I also agree with what you said about blue and my buddy has already jumped on that with a similar deck (minus Desertion, Capsize, and Evacuation). He is running Treachery, Bribery, Force of "ill", Thwart, Rewind, Palichron, Somnophore, "Free Willy", and T. Riders. Capsize would be dominating, but it's 3cc before buyback and is dis-allowed. I suggested for him to NEVER use Thwart's alt. cc, because three islands would slow him down way too much in this format. Best to toss thwart to Force of "ill" whenever he needs to pull a counter out of his sleeve. We have play-tested together and it "boil"ed down to...if I kept him at three land or less, I win, if not, he wins. He even Bribed my A. wurm once and I said "thanks", then chucked a land so it would go back on top of MY library. :) He still beat me, though. :(

    "Doc, how bad is it?"
    "Well, I got bad news and worse news."
    "Give it to me straight, Doc, I'm a postal worker and I can take it."
    "Tests came back positive and they say you got a week to live."
    "Oh my God! What could be worse?!?"
    "The worse news is that because the postal office misrouted the mail...the tests are a week old..."
  5. Zadok001 CPA Founder, Greater Good

    Gumby, Gizmo, aren't you even slightly worried about dealing with not going first? If you go first, all is well, and you get LD going before the other guy can cast anything. Go second, though, and LD becomes almost irrelevant. Logic?

    The entire format will be (duh) filled with 4-drops. Most of those are going to be active like your deck. Which means you're going to see big, ugly, monstrous, and generally BAD things hitting the table if your opponent gets to four mana. Once that happens, blowing up land ain't gonna help. Which means you have to blow up the big, bad, nasty thing instead. And so your opponent hits five mana, and another threat comes out.

    My point is, LD is only going to work if you go first. Otherwise, you're sunk. Now, Wildfire can theoretically hold off this problem, but it doesn't do the job too well. Once again, the problem occurs if your opponent hits the four mana threshold first. And if they do that, chances are they'll drop some monster threat on your head that ain't gonna die to some four damage.

    I'm probably just pulling a false alarm here, but I think this entire deck idea should be rethought somewhat... Anyways, ignore me. I'm ranting.

    "And for my next rant; Why Homeworld is a BAD Game..."
  6. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    As much as I hate to do this: Use alternate casting cost spells. Use the skyshroud cutters, use the gushes, use all those really bizzare spells that you can play for something other than mana. Plus, I'd play green: skyshroud cache is good anti-land destruction
  7. Gizmo Composite: 1860

    I think the Wildfire deck has a great deal going for it - IMHO it would be superb. And with 1 or 2 landkill already cast you can expect the Wildfire to leave you 2/0 ahead on land with your opponent, and more likely to draw into land as you have 30 to their 26-28, add to that the fact that Bogardan Phoenix is a win when the Haups go off (remember this is Bogardan Phoenix, not Shard Phoenix).

    Bogardan Phoenix
    RRR2, Summon Big Red Fiery Bird Of Death, Visions Rare
    When Bogardan Phoenix goes to the graveyard return it to play with an "I Went Straight To Hell And All I Got Was This Lousy T-Shirt" token.
    When Bogardan Phoenix goes to the graveyard with an "IWSTHAAIGWTLT-S" token on it it does not return to play.

    Without Capsize the blue deck drops a rank or two, and you can`t even throw in TimelyMentals or Temporal Adepts. Probably still superstrong - Evacuation and Desertion would be awesome. Guess you could slot in four Confiscate for the Capsize as the most obvious straight replacement, but then the Thran Dynamos are less useful and probably become Disks. That would still be a very strong deck.
  8. Zadok001 CPA Founder, Greater Good

    Hey, Duel has a point. Mono-green deck. Might of Oaks, Vine Dryad, Skyshroud Cutter, Argothian Wurm, etc... Would that be legal? 'Cause if it is, Skyshroud Cutter becomes a great deal on turn 1, since it gets in 3 attacks before the opponent can do ANYTHING about it. Mights give you the ability to drop your opponent flat out when you get to casting spells. Thoughts?
  9. Spart New Member

    Well, I don't have much time right now, so I'll be brief. It's my duty to point out a combo possibility. How about Pandemonium/Saproling Burst? You could play replentish, but it's probably easiest to just cast the two outright.

    Now for a few other quick thoughts. Consider that pyromancy is VERY playable in this format. And monkey cage rules in any format!!! Opalescence - Replentish could be strong. Lastly, a U/R deck with sunder/blood oath might be fun.

    Anyone see anything in there which makes sense? I should probably focus more on my posts and less on the NBA, but Vince rules!!! :)
  10. Gumby Khan New Member

    Thanks for the replies guys! I did try the modified deck the doctor gave me against another land destruction deck and I faced the exact thing Zadok was saying. I went first, I won 90% of the time. He went first, he won 99% of the time. We was running Pyromancy, Anarchist, and Viashano Cutthroats with his artifacts as Mishra's Helix. He didn't run Snuff Out, but I ran four and that took care of his Cutthroat, if I had a swamp, but the four life was a bit too expensive at times. I also found that Seismic Mage is just dominating if I can get it out early. The only times we could overcome the "going second" defecit, was to draw more lands than the other could kill. My deck only had the Ancient Hydra to turn the tide, while his had other answers. When I sided in Bog and Dirtwater Wraiths, it was a little better, but going first was still the only factor to consider.
    The free spells really are great in this format like Duel says. I may go back to green and run the cutters and Skyshroud Claims. Umbilicus was wonderful in my deck, though, so I think I'll keep it. Another friend has taken the same route as Zadok was pondering. Mono-green with mucho fatties and enchantments like Vernal Bloom. He ran all over me unless I kept him below four lands. Again, who goes first will win. I think Duel may have the secret tech spells. That will turn any tide, I think. If I drop a skyshroud on turn one and beat him down until turn four, I just took back the life I gave him and he has to answer it. Food for thought...

    I really appreciate all your help in this. You guys rock! :)

    "No man is poor, who can call on many friends."
    -Some philosopher, somewhere, sometime, some good!
  11. Gizmo Composite: 1860

    The obvious mega-spoiler is Rising Waters, and I guess that would fit into a cheap deck. But I feel it my duty to point out that by the fourth turn the Skyshroud Cutter will have run rampant to the tune of reducing your opponent to 19 life.
    Wow - way to go beatdown boy!

    If tempo is the concern then you have to go with blue for it`s 2-1 card swap ability (Desertion, Treachery, Confiscate), card drawing (Thieving Magpies) and free spells (Treachery, Peregrine Drake, Palinchron).

    I don`t think combo is viable because 4cc cuts out all the tutorage cards and also ensures that you will lose life pretty darn fast once you get to 4 mana as they start dropping 4/4 beasties on you.

    I think the mass-destruction route is best. Let`s just screw it all and play Garglehaups...
    4 Ivory Gargoyle
    4 Bogardan Phoenix
    4 Jokulhaups
    4 Wildfire
    2 Thran Dynamo
    30 Land
    + some other spells
  12. Gumby Khan New Member

    You are so right! Blue is just too bad a$$. I hope my friend wins with his Bouncy-Bribery-Biggie-Blue deck and if I have to play him, well, I can at least take one from him. :)
    Garglehaups really needs Apocalypse, too! :)

    "Whoa, Child of Gaea AND Weatherseed treefolk?"
    "Yep, your dead next turn, buddy!" :)
    "Yep, your right, should just scoop, but lets see what I can top deck...oooh, Wildfire. Lucky me, huh?" :)
  13. Captain Caveman New Member

    I've thinking about what creatures would be
    good in the far-mentioned format.

    I'm a terrible deck builder, as I've said a
    million times, so I won't offer a deck.

    I would like to suggest these creatures:[not
    all in the same deck]

    Saber Ants
    Wildfire Emmissary
    Tradewind Rider
    Verdant Force
    Phyrexian Plaguelord

    ...and was wondering if these spells would
    be good

    Spontanous Generation
    Sneak Attack
    Plow Under
    Gaea's Embrace
    Natural Order
    Defense of the Heart

    Well, thats my two cents, sorry I'm not much
    help, maybe some else can figure out a good
  14. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    Hey. Slightly off the topic, but could we satr a new deckdoctor topic? I'm getting tired of scrolling through 33 posts to get to the new one. BTW, I changes my sig.
  15. Gizmo Composite: 1860

    A mere 33 posts!
    The Art Of Beatdown was the proud displayer of 120+ posts back on the Dojo (and boy,didn`t that take a while to download - access topic, go to work, come home, click on post reply, go out for a few drinks, come in and finally reply...)
    But then I have to read all the other topics as well, not just my own personal one!
    Ok, then...
  16. Zadok001 CPA Founder, Greater Good

    I'm gonna tease Duel some now... See those arrow keys on your keyboard? Look above those. See the 'End' key? Why scroll through 33 (35 now) posts?
  17. Gumby Khan New Member

    Hey, I agree with Duel, but I do use the "end" key extensively. I suggested a while back that Gizmo should have a section devoted to the deck doctor. Don't you guys even read my extraneous rantings in my post? I'm currently trying to use as may "ex-" words as possible, because it is extremely difficult for my fingers to reach to "x" key and I'm trying to train them to expertly stroke that key. Please ignore these extra remarks, because they can be extremely annoying. :)

    "Excuse me, but is anyone listening?"
  18. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    No, Zadok, I don't see that end button. I guess that'll teach me for using a mac to connect to the CPA...
  19. Gizmo Composite: 1860

    Gumby, it`s very kind of you to suggest I should be given some sort of formal role, but I don`t really see why my advice should be considered any more valid than anybody else`s.
  20. Daenen New Member

    How's it goin', Gizmo? What have you been up to?

    Here is the deck that I am currently playing. I am happy with it (I usually go at least 5-3 at the local tournies), but there is always room for improvement. Tell me what you think:

    Dragon Wildfire (21)
    14 Mountains
    2 Ghitu Encampments
    3 Crystal Vein
    1 Rath's Edge (Experement)
    1 Shivan Gorge (Experement)

    Artifacts (1 :cool:
    4 Thran Dynamo
    4 Voltaic Keys
    4 Grim Monolith
    2 Urza's Blueprints
    2 Fire Diamonds
    1 Karn, Silver Golem
    1 Mishra's Helix

    Creatures (10)
    4 Avalanche Riders
    4 Covetous Dragons
    2 Shivan Hellkite (Tech!!)

    Spells (12)
    4 Pillage
    4 Wildfire
    4 Shock

    The deck works pretty well, but I feel that there is something missing. Tell me what you think. Thanks.

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