Spiderman

[Griffith_se]

You are right, that is just sick, that is not what
the United States of America is about.
Those people should be charged with hate crimes
That is the law.

Idiots who make comments like that don't represent
the majority of America.

 

[FoundationOfRancor]

Lots of individuals have died here people!

Us sitting here shooting the oink isnt going to speed up the investigation.

Lets worry and mourn about these poor people in DC and NYC.

 

[Apollo]

That is horrible. We've been a bit on edge (to put it mildly) but we've been calm and levelheaded compared to that...

 

[Ransac]

Gizmo, you will be missed. And, to be honest, I will be one of the ones that will miss you. Even though we have never really seen eye to eye in the past(quite frankly, it seemed to me that you had a superiority complex over most people here), your desire and effort in taking part in this net of conversations and expressing your ideals about this has earned my respect. I pray that your abcense is not permanent.


And I hope that I am not among the members that drove you away.


Ransac, cpa trash man

 

[Zadok001]

Griffith, I'm sorry, but I can't agree with you on this one. In the past 100 years, the US has hardly had to deal with mass intentional destruction on our own soil. In the meanwhile, we have bombed, struck out, and killed thousands of people not deserving to die. Now, when the same thing happens to us (admittably, on a more grand scale), how can we reach out and ask for MORE massive violence and destruction? Is that justice? Killing more people to get to the few responsible? Is that right?

No, of course not. Yet it's the first thing an enormous number of us reach for. That's not right, nor is it fair.

Put the shoe on the other foot, Griffith. Manchester gets hit by a 747. Gizmo gets angry, and calls for massive violence against those responsible. What do YOU do? Would you agree, and say "Send in the calvary!" Would you send in an army to wipe out the Irish population?

I hope not.

But that's what's happening here.

I stand for justice, not for vengeance.

 

[terzarima]

[I'm ashamed I posted something I shouldn't have here. I hope other people can admit they were wrong as well when the time comes]

 

[Duel]

I agree with Gizmo. And more, I find it diguesting that you would take this thread and say "good riddance!" to him. That's callous, selfish, shallow, and shows no respect for anyone. I'm ashamed to be here as well. I just maintain the hope that this too shall pass.

 

[Hetemti]

Rest assured, children...

The Terrorists, whomever they are, are glad to see this type of behavior.

Razing the Towers was done to tear asunder the people.

And here, we see the fissure they bore slowly widening, fuled by moral dispute...I always hate it when the self-rightous quabblers let the bad guys win.

So, anyone play Magic lately?

 

[Spiderman]

Just last night...

Gizmo: Sorry, but I couldn't delete your account even if I wanted to (which I don't). Only Ed can do that, I believe...

Let's face it, the CPA is pretty much a cross-sampling of attitudes in America (and perhaps around the world). We have those who want to go to war in general, those who wish to just find those responsible and punish them, and those who wish to do nothing (broadly speaking).

I'm dismayed that some of the posts have become personal attacks on other people; they have a right to their opinion, even if you disagree with them. CE(?)'s sig says it best (or whoever it is) that he has the right to disagree with your opinion, but will defend to the death your opinion (or something like that).

I hope you don't go over this; as someone said, it ought to be Magic (and if your argument with Isty a while back didn't drive you away, this shouldn't either).

Other stuff:

Lotus Mox:

When I see how sheepishly you follow your leader it makes me puke. We in Germany learned our lesson, it's about time you learn it too

I'm not sure what you mean by "sheepishly follow our leader". For the most part, he's doing what the majority of people want to do; in other words, if he ordered a massacre (in another time, another place), would people "sheepishly" follow him? (This is poorly worded, I'm not sure how to propery express my disagreement with this). And was it a German or Austrian leader who was elected despite having ties to white supremacists? I can't remember...

Concerning your comment about the Arab kid in school, I heard an unconfirmed report that a group of Arabs in Shippensburg(?), PA were "celebrating" in the quad and were beat up badly by the other students.

Griffy:

Is there no sympathy for innocent dead? Among them British, German, Japanese, Korean, the list goes on and on.

I'm sure a lot of Arabs were on that list too, it was the World Trade Center. Everyone was involved, there wasn't any special warning to Arabs or anything... (this is agreeing with you and expanding on it, not disagreement).

Zadok:

In the meanwhile, we have bombed, struck out, and killed thousands of people not deserving to die.

I still think there's a difference, that our intentions were not deliberate in targeting the innocents (unless you can point to some specific instances).

ademis: I think you misread what others are saying; they're not saying that Gizmo supported the British fighting the Irish (he said the US supported the Irish and then amended it to US individuals). What Gizmo said is that America has never had this happen to them and he's dismayed by the "overall" responses by its first such incident (although as I said above, I believe it's only a small portion of members who have actually made those "war-mongering" comments, unless he's talking about the group that advocates going after just the terrorists).

 

[Rando]

I'm still waiting for anyone to point out ONE time when the United States intentionaly killed any amount of, let alone 5000+, civilians.

I'm still waiting for anyone to point out the so-called policies of the United States that made us deserve this.

I'm waiting for specific answers, not rhetoric and rumors.

 

[Baskil]

Wow.

It amazes me how ignorant some of the people are towards their own government. Let's look at this logically as to *why* we should have expected something like this to happen.

Look at exactly what we are doing to Iraq at the moment. We are forbidding a soveirn nation from using it's OWN airpsace, and potentially causing thousands of innocents to starve over the last eleven years.

The fact that we have continued to support Israel through thick and thin, even after they bombed Lebanese schools and hospitals for retribution.

The fact that world has this perception of the US as beinga nosy neighbor. People hate nosy neighbors. People especially hate nosy neighbors who try and tell them what to do.

If you have the time, I suggest you read these:

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/90sep/rage.htm
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/90sep/rage2.htm

There are a lot of minor things that never get press that our country have done that cause a lot of problems (bad sentence, oh well). For instance, Sudan. A known harbor for terrorists, and a supporter of Osama Bin Laden. Yet, we escalated their hostility towards us. To make it brief, this all started when Edi Amin died. We stepped in when they decided to make a democracy in Uganda and give them monetary support and train their millitary. By doing so, we did a couple of things. You see, the Ugandans have a lot of interests in the area, like the Sudan civil war. They supplied the southern Sudanese rebels with arms, bolstered with our tax dollars. We're partially to blame. Also of note, the man who overthrew the Zaire government was American Trained.

I could go on like this forever, and I'll wrap it up.

Remember that what we see in the media, is not what these terrorists see. The twisted media only makes our image worse in the eyes of those terrorists. And well, when you see American-funded attack helicopters firing unguided missles at a West Bank settlement, I'm still confused at how we can say these attacks were not partially our own fault.

While these attacks can never be justified, they should be understood and never have been a shock.

 

[Duel]

Okay, spidey. Try Yugoslavia, right now. NATO, or rather US, backed by NATO, is currently destroying civilian tagets in an effort to demoralize the rebels.
Death counts there reach over 20,000 from US and NATO intervention in a civil war. Happy?

And NOTHING made us deserve this. Or them. You can't ever deserve this, no matter what you do. The terrorists don't deserve to have it happen to them any more than we deserve to have it happen to us.

 

[terzarima]

Sorry spidey, din't mean to come out like that:

The comment was in reply to one that Griffith made on her list. I realize why he left.

 

[Spiderman]

Baskil:

Iraq: That is true. However, isn't one of the reasons why we have the nof=fly zone is to protect the Kurdish minority who would otherwise be extermined (and were before it)?

Israel: Ah, the key word is "retribution". For what exactly? Can I assume "unprovoked" attacks on Israel? And exactly where did THOSE weapons come from?

Duel: Please point me where any such action is taking place, as I am unaware of what you're talking about.

However, to address why the US and NATO got involved in the first place, can you condone/sit back and let the genocide between the Serbs, Albanians, and Muslims take place? Are you saying that you would have rather "let them" work things out by slaughtering each other (which included civilians and innocents, as it always does).

 

[Rando]

Let's talk ignorance, shall we?

#1 Iraqi Oil for Food program
This is a U.N. sanction, not a United States one.
http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/07/03/iraq.sanctions/index.html

#2 Iraqi No-Fly Zone
Once again, this is a Multi-Nation action, not just the U.S.
http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/06/25/iraq.strikes/index.html

#3 Nosey Neighbor
I don't recall Samantha killing the neighbor lady on Bewitched for peeking in the windows. At any rate, as I have said before, the isolationisim of richer, more powerful nations is what caused such horrors as the Jewish Holocaust and the murders of the Khamar Rouge.

#4 American Funds in the hands of others.
If I give you $500, and you use it to buy a gun and kill someone, am I to blame?
Even if I gave you the gun, am I to blame?
Do you think that nations won't find arms elsewhere? Is it really our fault if we try to do good and it backfires when the people we are helping decide to do otherwise?

#5 Support of Israel
This is it. This is the reason for damn near all of this.
I listen to National Public Radio every day. That is one media group you can almost guarenty is not tainted because it has no corporate backing and runs no comercials. Everytime they report on a tussel between Israel and Palastine, it is always Israel sriking back, never first. The big difference is that Israel always hits back twice as hard as they were hit. Israeli inocents are killed in these altercations as well as Palastinian, you know.

 

[Baskil]

OK, let's talk about ignorance for a minute.

1&2

Do you honestly believe that the UN is not wrapped around our finger? I mean, we owe them a huge debt, and they don't care.

Do you honestly believe, that if we hadn't gotten involved, that Iraq would be where it is today?

3

No, she didn't get killed.

However, we're talking more along the lines of someone reading over your shoulder. You can't tell me that doesn't get annoying.

And then when the person starts flipping pages for you, well, I'm sure some of us would get mad.

4
There's a huge difference from giving financial aid to a country, and giving humanitarian aid. That's where we've gotten it all wrong. We are to blame for what other countries do with our money. If we cared enough to throw money at the problem, we should at least have cared enough to buy the damn things ourselves.

5
And you're fooling yourself if you think NPR isn't filtered.

 

[Rando]

Filtered?

By the black CIA helecopters and the New World Order?

And who would be doing this filtering, exactly?

Should I start digging my bunker in Montana?

 

[Rando]

And besides...If the UN was "wrapped around our finger", then that would more or less mean that we rule the world.

Do you think this is so?

 

[Baskil]

NPR themselves.
There is no such thing as unbiased news. Everyone always has their own angle, and it's impossible to remove.

Edit: Even if we don't have control millitarily over the world, we control a large portion of it diplomatically. If you're too blind to see that, rando - well, I feel sorry for you.

 

[Rando]

Whatever.

I don't feel like starting yet another feud on this board.

Anyone see any good movies lately?