Wait, I thought that's why the game pretty much ends automatically when the wolves outnumber the villagers. But orgg and I seem to remember the wolves also win when there's an equal number of villagers and wolves? Unless the silver bullet is why we keep on going?
B
BigBlue
Guest
(The game is essentially over.... But, when I ended it last time, the wolves wanted to play it out a bit, so I'm not ending it quite yet.... for the sense of "drama" I guess...)
(As I explained... once there are equal numbers before a night, it's over... If there are equal numbers after a night, I'm not sure how you'd proceed, because if all the villagers agreed on one wolf and all the wolves agreed on one villager, you guys would want to find a way to break the tie before nightfall... so I don't know how that'd end up other than a big arguement... That was one reason Orgg said it works best with an odd number of players...)
This is my last game for a while... I thoroughly enjoyed running it, though I monkeyed the rules too much in favor of the wolves both times... The game is always tilted in their favor, but by tilting it further it made it unfair... I guess I counted on the villagers hanging wolves easier both games... The Silver Bullet was a 50/50 gambit... and wrong assumptions were made by me... for that I apologize.
The biggest problem I have with this game is the complete lack of evidence for the villagers, which makes them far too suspicious of eachother... It is so easy to read too much into something and then go off... I have 1 idea on how to make it a little better in their favor, but I am through monkeying with the rules... I liked the game in it's simplicity... I really would like to try the underworld thing, but I am afraid we'll never have enough players for it...
EricBess said he's interested in running another round... he's also thinking of adding a twist, but I'm not sure what it is or when he'll start.
Thank you for your participation. Better luck next time villagers...
(As I explained... once there are equal numbers before a night, it's over... If there are equal numbers after a night, I'm not sure how you'd proceed, because if all the villagers agreed on one wolf and all the wolves agreed on one villager, you guys would want to find a way to break the tie before nightfall... so I don't know how that'd end up other than a big arguement... That was one reason Orgg said it works best with an odd number of players...)
This is my last game for a while... I thoroughly enjoyed running it, though I monkeyed the rules too much in favor of the wolves both times... The game is always tilted in their favor, but by tilting it further it made it unfair... I guess I counted on the villagers hanging wolves easier both games... The Silver Bullet was a 50/50 gambit... and wrong assumptions were made by me... for that I apologize.
The biggest problem I have with this game is the complete lack of evidence for the villagers, which makes them far too suspicious of eachother... It is so easy to read too much into something and then go off... I have 1 idea on how to make it a little better in their favor, but I am through monkeying with the rules... I liked the game in it's simplicity... I really would like to try the underworld thing, but I am afraid we'll never have enough players for it...
EricBess said he's interested in running another round... he's also thinking of adding a twist, but I'm not sure what it is or when he'll start.
Thank you for your participation. Better luck next time villagers...
L
Limited
Guest
I think 'turning' someone is a nice twist, but is way too good in a game with a small number of players. If we want to keep turning people, I guess you have to start with a single wolf..
but then the chances of a first turn kill are too great.
Also, the first round in which a NPC dies gives the villagers a first hanging, but absolutely no evidence to base it on. So, its almost like randomly killing a player the first round...
Discussion thread for the next format?
but then the chances of a first turn kill are too great.
Also, the first round in which a NPC dies gives the villagers a first hanging, but absolutely no evidence to base it on. So, its almost like randomly killing a player the first round...
Discussion thread for the next format?
E
EricBess
Guest
I've discussed a couple of the twist things with BigBlue. I agree with Limited and the turning isn't feasible with a small group. You pretty much figure that the first two nights, there is a good chance you are going to hang a villager. After that, it's really easy just to have the newly converted lay low, possibly even sacrificing the original two wolves. With any luck, the "seer" already thinks that the new convert is a normal villager.
In general, I think that without twists, it's fairly balanced, but favors the wolves with a small group and the villagers as the group gets larger. I've played with around 30 players and we added an extra wolf and an extra seer and only once the the wolves come close to winning with that large a group.
The twist(s) I have in mind are designed to do very little, but could potentially help the villagers. It will also encourage a slightly different style of play for some players...
BTW - I'm heading for the hills. I see no reason to play anything out.
Also - I said it clearly - the ONLY way to stop the wolves was for all the villagers to get together. The fact that DarthFerrit and Limited were so ademant about voting for one specific individual to me indicates that they aren't interested in listening to any discussion or to be flexible. They also never gave any substantial reasons for wanting to hang Spiderman. Since the wolves were able to cooperate and the villagers weren't, the wolves pretty much auto-won.
Since Darth was a villager, I'm guessing that the Limited and Zigathon were the wolves, and I have no idea who was converted...
In general, I think that without twists, it's fairly balanced, but favors the wolves with a small group and the villagers as the group gets larger. I've played with around 30 players and we added an extra wolf and an extra seer and only once the the wolves come close to winning with that large a group.
The twist(s) I have in mind are designed to do very little, but could potentially help the villagers. It will also encourage a slightly different style of play for some players...
BTW - I'm heading for the hills. I see no reason to play anything out.
Also - I said it clearly - the ONLY way to stop the wolves was for all the villagers to get together. The fact that DarthFerrit and Limited were so ademant about voting for one specific individual to me indicates that they aren't interested in listening to any discussion or to be flexible. They also never gave any substantial reasons for wanting to hang Spiderman. Since the wolves were able to cooperate and the villagers weren't, the wolves pretty much auto-won.
Since Darth was a villager, I'm guessing that the Limited and Zigathon were the wolves, and I have no idea who was converted...
B
BigBlue
Guest
I think people get way to caught up in what is said sometimes... one little "oddity" is enough to get you hanged... also, I am surprised how suspicious some players act... I don't know if they are trying to throw the wolves off or not... but in every game, I'm shocked how some villagers are almost deliberately acting suspicious... maybe they are just trying to hard to be inconspicuous...
The one twist I'm pondering I'll throw up for discussion... if the investigator investigates a villager (rather than a wolf).... is it fair to let the villager know they are the investigator... so that they can discuss strategy themselves? it's one way I can think of to balance the power of the wolves...
The only game won by the village was through my own dumb luck of figuring out who the wolves were by elimination (as seer).... and then it took a ton of convincing to get the villagers to vote with me... even when I exposed myself as seer... I just think it's so tough for the villagers to win, when the wolves get to be a voting block twice a day... even when they aren't voting together, they can manipulate things usually pretty well... I think primarilly because they are the only ones who have clues... the investigator has to get lucky to figure out anything meaningful, and is vulnerable to getting eaten once discovered... or hung because they are suspicious...
The one twist I'm pondering I'll throw up for discussion... if the investigator investigates a villager (rather than a wolf).... is it fair to let the villager know they are the investigator... so that they can discuss strategy themselves? it's one way I can think of to balance the power of the wolves...
The only game won by the village was through my own dumb luck of figuring out who the wolves were by elimination (as seer).... and then it took a ton of convincing to get the villagers to vote with me... even when I exposed myself as seer... I just think it's so tough for the villagers to win, when the wolves get to be a voting block twice a day... even when they aren't voting together, they can manipulate things usually pretty well... I think primarilly because they are the only ones who have clues... the investigator has to get lucky to figure out anything meaningful, and is vulnerable to getting eaten once discovered... or hung because they are suspicious...
B
BigBlue
Guest
Thanks.... I halfway correct myself... (get it right about half the time....) 
Hung like a mule....
Hanged like a criminal...
Hung like a mule....
Hanged like a criminal...
I've thought that it was pretty odd when people are voted on because of early slip ups in their fake cover stories. I mean, since all of us are lying and making it up about where we were that night, people shouldn't base their votes on that. However, the first vote is always annoying, you really do have no information, but there isn't anyway around it.
I think that letting the villagers who are investigated know who the seer is would probably be too powerful for the villagers, there'd have to be some other balancing rule. If the werewolves also got to know who the seer was if he investigated a werewolf could lead to some pretty interesting votes.
I think that letting the villagers who are investigated know who the seer is would probably be too powerful for the villagers, there'd have to be some other balancing rule. If the werewolves also got to know who the seer was if he investigated a werewolf could lead to some pretty interesting votes.
B
BigBlue
Guest
The thing I find.... is that you never have any information.... which is why the game is tilted towards the wolves... and it is 100% all about how people phrase their votes or just flat out BS.... I don't know how many times I thought the jig was up, someone would start voting for a wolf - and be sure about it with their reasoning... but for some reason, they get ignored... Limited investigated Spidey and KNEW he was a wolf.... but only got one of the wolves to vote with him.... the next night he was converted... Two wolves voted for the third wolf, and still no villagers voted with them... it was crazy... (at least to me it was)...
E
EricBess
Guest
I was just thinking as I came down to check this that Spiderman could have very easily been the converted wolf. Ironically, he convinced me by acting more like a villager than the villagers did.
Like I said before, the ONLY way the villagers were going to win was to all 4 vote for the same person. I tried to make it clear that either I or Zigathon was eventually going to be hanged, so if the villagers really wanted to win, they should have all either switched their votes to me or switched their votes to Zigathon.
Spiderman could have just left his vote for me. I would have been hanged and the wolves would have won. Instead, he acted like he wasn't convinced about Zigathon and gave me another option...
I will say however, that I'm not sure I want to play another game where there is converting. It's way to powerful for the wolves and here's why -
Limited knew Spiderman was a wolf and acted accordingly, which effectively tipped his hand to the wolves that he was likely the seer. His coverstory to us was what Melkor was saying - something that was said "in character" and not necessarily "in game", so the villagers have no reason to believe him, but the werewolves get an insight.
Now, the werewolves are taking a risk letting the seer live, so they almost have to kill him if they really believe him to be the seer. But, the very act of killing is a message to the villagers. The fact that someone gets converted not only adds a third wolf, but takes away a very critical piece of information from the remaining villagers. If Limited had been killed, it makes Spiderman look a bit suspicious. But being able to convert him gets rid of the seer without sending any additional information to the villagers and that's harder to deal with even than having a third wolf.
Like I said before, the ONLY way the villagers were going to win was to all 4 vote for the same person. I tried to make it clear that either I or Zigathon was eventually going to be hanged, so if the villagers really wanted to win, they should have all either switched their votes to me or switched their votes to Zigathon.
Spiderman could have just left his vote for me. I would have been hanged and the wolves would have won. Instead, he acted like he wasn't convinced about Zigathon and gave me another option...
I will say however, that I'm not sure I want to play another game where there is converting. It's way to powerful for the wolves and here's why -
Limited knew Spiderman was a wolf and acted accordingly, which effectively tipped his hand to the wolves that he was likely the seer. His coverstory to us was what Melkor was saying - something that was said "in character" and not necessarily "in game", so the villagers have no reason to believe him, but the werewolves get an insight.
Now, the werewolves are taking a risk letting the seer live, so they almost have to kill him if they really believe him to be the seer. But, the very act of killing is a message to the villagers. The fact that someone gets converted not only adds a third wolf, but takes away a very critical piece of information from the remaining villagers. If Limited had been killed, it makes Spiderman look a bit suspicious. But being able to convert him gets rid of the seer without sending any additional information to the villagers and that's harder to deal with even than having a third wolf.
L
Limited
Guest
You are totally right EB
I forgot about the wolves being able to turn someone, so I was dropping hints like crazy about me being the seer (but perhaps it wasn't so obvious?). The first night I got lucky and immediately discovered Spiderman and explicitly never came up with any good reason to vote for him. I thought, together with the hints, everybody would deduce I was the seer which would probably get me killed.. but at least it would have exposed Spiderman.
And then they turned me.
All I could do to avoid acting like a wolf, was to continue the (ineffective) campaign against Spiderman, killing him if needs be. Ironically, the only villager to catch on to my hints was DarthFerret, who wished me good luck right before he died (how ironic).
I forgot about the wolves being able to turn someone, so I was dropping hints like crazy about me being the seer (but perhaps it wasn't so obvious?). The first night I got lucky and immediately discovered Spiderman and explicitly never came up with any good reason to vote for him. I thought, together with the hints, everybody would deduce I was the seer which would probably get me killed.. but at least it would have exposed Spiderman.
And then they turned me.
All I could do to avoid acting like a wolf, was to continue the (ineffective) campaign against Spiderman, killing him if needs be. Ironically, the only villager to catch on to my hints was DarthFerret, who wished me good luck right before he died (how ironic).
O
orgg
Guest
Turning might work... in a group of seventeen.
With an even number of players, having the "MOD" die at the beginning and narrate Desparate Housewives style each day and night seems to work well for the 'but nobody got to play!' thing. The first day's always the hardest.
With an even number of players, having the "MOD" die at the beginning and narrate Desparate Housewives style each day and night seems to work well for the 'but nobody got to play!' thing. The first day's always the hardest.
Lots of good ideas and points.
I agree with Melkor about people voting early on because of inconsistencies in cover stories or whatever. I mean, a couple of games ago, orgg (I think) said he was locked in Melkor's basement as a reason for not posting right away. Melkor to his credit played along with it, but then everyone thought it was "weird" for one villager to imprison another and so voted for Melkor. Crazy... I've been in a Werewolf game on another board where you could vote "Nobody" and that's what we did for 3 days straight... of course, the wolves converted someone and eventually won (I was the seer and killed the second night )
I could have kept my vote for you, EricBess, but I was afraid that if I kept it "for no good reason" after you switched away from me, orgg and Melkor might have wondered why and switched their votes to me. So I had to switch back to DF (the only non-wolf of my three choice - so much for "randomness" ) I really thought it was going to end up as a tie though - I didn't expect DF to get hanged.
Us wolves thought you guys would follow Limited's lead and hang me and I was willing to sacrifice myself to do it as then Limited could "clear" Zigathon, but things worked out
Like I said, I agree the converting is too strong for a small group like this. There's other roles in that other site that the villagers have: Guardian Angel (can protect someone for one night), Vigilante (I think can kill someone right away instead of voting) and some other stuff... but again, I think we need more people.
I think the investigators should be able to converse with each other if they find out they're villagers... that'd be one thing to try and if it doesn't work, then take it out for the next time
I agree with Melkor about people voting early on because of inconsistencies in cover stories or whatever. I mean, a couple of games ago, orgg (I think) said he was locked in Melkor's basement as a reason for not posting right away. Melkor to his credit played along with it, but then everyone thought it was "weird" for one villager to imprison another and so voted for Melkor. Crazy... I've been in a Werewolf game on another board where you could vote "Nobody" and that's what we did for 3 days straight... of course, the wolves converted someone and eventually won (I was the seer and killed the second night
)I could have kept my vote for you, EricBess, but I was afraid that if I kept it "for no good reason" after you switched away from me, orgg and Melkor might have wondered why and switched their votes to me. So I had to switch back to DF (the only non-wolf of my three choice - so much for "randomness"
) I really thought it was going to end up as a tie though - I didn't expect DF to get hanged.Us wolves thought you guys would follow Limited's lead and hang me and I was willing to sacrifice myself to do it as then Limited could "clear" Zigathon, but things worked out
Like I said, I agree the converting is too strong for a small group like this. There's other roles in that other site that the villagers have: Guardian Angel (can protect someone for one night), Vigilante (I think can kill someone right away instead of voting) and some other stuff... but again, I think we need more people.
I think the investigators should be able to converse with each other if they find out they're villagers... that'd be one thing to try and if it doesn't work, then take it out for the next time
O
orgg
Guest
We really shouldn't try anything that drastic with such a small group.
The only thing I'd suggest trying out is having the person investigated (since we're going with the 'spy on, and see what happens' instead of 'crystal ball/psychic dreaming' for the seer) find out that they were the target of the See-er, and saw 'em back. Maybe the See-er has Wolfbane that masks his/her smell from the wolves...
The only thing I'd suggest trying out is having the person investigated (since we're going with the 'spy on, and see what happens' instead of 'crystal ball/psychic dreaming' for the seer) find out that they were the target of the See-er, and saw 'em back. Maybe the See-er has Wolfbane that masks his/her smell from the wolves...
L
Limited
Guest
Isn't it a simpler solution to start with an additional investigator? Would seem to improve the chances of an investigator reaches the end of the game and will give the villagers a lot more usefull information..
Mooseman
Isengar Tussle
It may help if the wolves are only allowed to decide on who to kill, but nothing else and that should be limited to naming a player and the other agreeing or naming another. This would simulate the live aspect where the wolves can't talk outside of the game. This may be how it is done, but some of the talk seems to suggest that the wolves are working in concert behind the scenes, not just agreeing on who to eat.
The creation of more wolves is really tilting the game to the wolves.
Maybe the investigator could reveal info to the players through an alternate means. Like posters or mail, or a talking bird or whatever, to keep their identity secret. It seems that the wolves don't have to try and convey info during the game, but the investigator does.
The creation of more wolves is really tilting the game to the wolves.
Maybe the investigator could reveal info to the players through an alternate means. Like posters or mail, or a talking bird or whatever, to keep their identity secret. It seems that the wolves don't have to try and convey info during the game, but the investigator does.