It has begun.

[MrXarvox]

double standard= judging on the same subject two separate ways depending on the parties involved. e.g. arhar cares about 6000 americans dying but not about 6000 somalis.


aside: I know the whole debate about someone murdering your family is silly. Unfortunately, DUke and I seem to disagree on the subject of pure logic being a coldhearted aspect. Thus debate is inevitable, because neither of us is willing to shut up about it, lest our images be damaged by the illusion of argument loss...

 

[DÛke]

...um, MrX, you think whatever you want. I don't ramble on bulls**t.

Spiderman, please, read into my metaphors rather than my words. If I understand the reason fully, and I see it as a perfect justification for such a crime, THEN my family DESERVES to die. If I'm not satisfied with the reason in anyway, ONLY then will l be set on my avenging mode. EVEN at that, I wouldn't really HATE the guy, and I would want simple justice brought to him.

If any of you think I'm "just saying that" for some weird reason, than good for you. I'm saying what I feel<===I know, very unusual for humanity to do...

Arhar, let's not even TALK about intelligent conversations. You and I have NOTHING in common any more. Period. Not even intelligence. If I have said that I wouldn't care about American people dying, than you would have FLIPPED! You would have LOST it! You'd go crazy. You'd see me as a racist, an anti-American. YET YOU, yourself, have the right to say that you DON'T care about Somalis dying. It's NOT an issue of humane or inhumane, it's an issue of complete hypocracy on your side. Needless to say, I am UNlike you. I DO care about the lives all over the world, not just American, and certainly not just Arabian. All of it. Let's not throw the word "intelligent" in the middle of all this, because clearly, you're not doing a good job on your part. All that said, I have and will continue on respecting your opinion, but when YOU ask me things of such "why are you here?" then don't expect me to "respect," because that question is the most disrespectful thing a person could hear. One more thing, if MY problem is making assumptions, than YOUR problem is hypocracy and a faliure to see another point of view.

Examine this, let's:

Arhar:
...and from your posts so far I've got the impression that you care about the Arabian world much more. If that's not the case - oh well, good for you, but what do you expect me to think when all your posts defend our enemies and criticize us?

Is that not complete assumptions? I'm telling you, if you wanna talk rational, look at what you have said before you defend yourself. AND like I said before, SO WHAT if I care about the Arab world more - is that a crime? My generation and more than 50 relatives are in there...and what, I'm just supposed to HATE it because eveybody else does? Sorry dude, just because you go with the flow and lack sympathy for your blood and native land, doesn't mean that I do. Forgive me for my heartful soul - I really didn't realize it was such a crime...

 

[Spiderman]

MrX: Again, I'm not sure why it's a double standard. Has arhar claimed to care about Somalia in the past? If he's "gung-ho" about America and thinking about the USA, how is not caring about the Somalis a double standard?

DUke: The problem with metaphors is that you need to be clear if you expect people to follow them.

SO what you're saying is that if you're not satisfied with the reason, you'll want justice? Putting aside the question of what exactly is satisfying to you, how far are you willing to go to get your justice? What if the guy runs into the house on the next block and the people there refuse to give him up? Or what if the "head of householf" refuses to give him up and happens to hold the rest of the people there in wretched conditions?

 

[Lotus Mox]

Originally posted by Spiderman
MrX: Again, I'm not sure why it's a double standard. Has arhar claimed to care about Somalia in the past? If he's "gung-ho" about America and thinking about the USA, how is not caring about the Somalis a double standard?

Is it really that hard to understand Spidey?
American = Somali = Human.
Treating the same thing differently is a double standard.

 

[Spiderman]

In that case, has any others here deplored the Rwandan killings/genocide? The Balkan conflict?

Not as much in one blow but probably over the years: The Philippines and execution of hostages? The hostage-taking/law-maker killings in Columbia? Indonesia?

When people talk about life loss, I don't recollect hardly any mention of these (Balkan being the exception). From either side. But as arhar has shown, he's mostly for the US, which makes sense to me that he should be concerned with US fatalities first and foremost. But where's everyone else?

That's why I don't see a double standard, at least on arhar's part. I believe he's professed his concern for the US first, not lives in general. If it was the latter, THEN it might be a double standard.

 

[MrXarvox]

see, a double standard is when you judge them differently at the same time.

arhar's double standard:

6000 americans die: gasp in terror!
6000 somalis die: eh.

can't make it much simpler...


---
Aside: DUke, here it seems your mind is a twisted little thing. You speak of your intelligence and how you don't ramble on bulls**t, and yet you yell at arhar, who, despite having warmongering right wing views, has been clear and calm (albeit a warmonger)about the whole thing. He has admitted that he is hypocritical about deaths of innocents, and yet you accuse him of it, as if he had not openly stated his double standard. DUke, man, you have to calm down some right here. If you can't even speak rationally on a frickin' bulletin board, you certainly couldn't clear your head after the murder of your family... Looks like you have an ideal but not a reality that you display here... you show great disrespect for the opinions of others. You know what, DUke? This is my OPINION, which you will still flame me about since you don't recognize the meaning of the word. From what I see here, in your posts, I think you are more out to improve your image than make a statement. Are you really honest about all you say? Do you TRULY say what you feel? Seems as if you speak about what you want others to think you feel. Seems to me, in my opinion as referenced by this thread, that you would like to be the Dissenter here. You'd like to be seen as the only one with a REAL opinion. You'd like to think that other views don't matter, because you're the one who (supposedly) deviates from human nature by eschewing hatred. That is my HUMBLE OPINION, as referenced by the posts in this thread. I would respect your total honesty, but quite frankly I don't believe you.

One more thing, if MY problem is making assumptions, than YOUR problem is hypocracy and a faliure to see another point of view. --DUke

Throughout all I've seen here in this thread, your problem HAS been making assumptions (the quoted post is bursting with them) and arhar has been honest and fair, and has NOT failed to see your point of view. Just because he doesn't agree with you doesn't mean he fails to see your point of view.

And you flame and you flame and you flame, and then you speak to me of "rambling on bulls**t".

Get a grip. If anyone's "losing it" here, it's you.

 

[Spiderman]

MrX: Again, arhar has demonstrated that he cares for the US first, not life in general (at least that is how I am interpreting his posts). So it's not really a double standard.

And now, a word of caution. Once again this thread is taking on tones that are insulting and attacking people personally. If it doesn't stop and get back to the original intent, then it's going to be shut down.

 

[Zadok001]

In this case, Spidey, a double standard is being displayed by a large portion of the American population. A slaughter occurs in one part of the world, and we all (all, of course, being representative of said American majority, not all in the most literal sense of the word) say "Oh, well." A slaughter of Americans occurs, and BOOM! We're really mad.

It's not arhar's double-standard, it's almost universal. As much as I dislike it, I personally have that double-standard pretty well ingrained into me. I barely noticed when people chattered about the Balkans, but the WTC shocked me to the core. I believe that does qualify as a double-standard, and I think a good number of people on this board are as affected by it as I am.

 

[EricBess]

I don't think that is the double standard that Gizmo is referring to anyway. I think this is the double standard that he is referring to:

arhar says that it doesn't bother him that 6000 Samalis die - nobody gets on his case.
Gizmo says that it doesn't bother him that 6000 Americans die - everyone jumps on his back about it.

Before he gets on my case, I realize that wasn't exactly what Gizmo said. I think it probably did bother him, but he wasn't preocupied about it like everyone else. But he's right. Why should we not get on Arhar's case about not caring about 6000 humans just because they happen to be from Samalia.

I think there is a difference in countries where internal conflicts cause many thousands of deaths on a routine basis. What's a few more? Gizmo is honest enough to admit that it isn't about the deaths, but about the country that he cares. Americans feel like they have been hit personally. I'm sure it would bother Gizmo if 6000 British were killed.

Anyway, I'm not taking sides here. To me, it seems a bit heartless to not care about losses of human life in general. But we're talking about extreams here anyway, so I don't really think that is what is going on.

Rather than flame each other, we should listen to what each other has to say. And I mean everyone by that. We don't have to agree with each other's oppinion, but we can still respect it, can't we?

 

[Gizmo]

Spidey.
Thats what a double standard MEANS.
*sigh*

I think the problem is that both 'Double' and 'Standards' have two syllables, which is hampering Spidey`s understanding.


And if you havent heard ANYBODY mention the loss of life in other places during these past few weeks then I guess that shows just how much people actually DID read what I was saying after all, seeing as Im fairly sure I referred to it repeatedly.

I think I said something along the lines of:
"I care about the 6,000 dead about 1/10th as much as you care bout the 60,000 dead in Bosnia".

Or similar, the numbers might be totally wrong, in fact I think I used the Rwandan example. I dont consider that any more heartless than you consider your lack of thought for the world beyond your borders heartless. If you wish to brand us both heartless then do so - in fact I`ll happily welcome you to the real world where people dont actually give a Smeg about anybody they dont know - but it cannot be the case that only one of us lacks empathy.
THAT was my point all along. Glad you took the time to read my posts and spot it.


If Arhar is willing to admit that he doesnt care about the rest of the world then he should accept that I dont care about whoever was in the WTC, which should mean we can all live happily ever after, having agreed that we dont care about each other.

 

[Spiderman]

Okay, EricBess' example is something more in line with what makes sense, although I didn't really get that from Gizmo's post; I was getting what MrX was saying.

And now Gizmo, your first two paragraphs are VERY unclear. Should I take offense that you can't even explain what you mean by saying "that's what a double standard MEANS"? What does it mean? Does it mean what Zadok is saying? Does it mean what MrX is saying? Does it mean what EricBess is saying?

Regarding your second paragraph, should I roll my eyes and mention that it seems because you're a Brit, you can't seem to explain what double standard means in American English?

Hmmm, I don't think so. Like I said in above post, we're going to keep this clean.

Now, I just looked through this whole thread and can't find your statement, so I apologize if you mentioned it in another thread. These things tend to run together and if they're not in one place to reference, then it's just slightly harder.

But I agree with your last paragraph; it appears it's up to arhar whether he responds.

 

[Gizmo]

No Spidey. You are meant to have a sense of humour.
Jeez.

 

[Spiderman]

Use a after your 'cause in this type of thread, it's hard to tell (seriously. I got the kind of, but like I said in that other thread, sometimes what people say on the Net doesn't come across as intended.)

Or put the as the message icon.

Please? Sorry if I misinterpreted your statements then...

 

[Rando]

*feeling like adding something without any real relevant content*

double standard
n.
A set of principles permitting greater opportunity or liberty to one than to another, especially the granting of greater sexual freedom to men than to women.
(The American Heritage® Dictionary)

double standard
n :
an ethical or moral code that applies more strictly to one group than to another
(WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University)

I would like to add, and I know I'll get someone on my case here, that I don't care about any amount of Somalians that die, or Croates, or Americans, any more then when I hear about a celebrity death or the death of polititian.

I do not know them, and I guess I lack the empathy to mourn them. The entire state of Virgina could blow up, and I would not shed a tear, for I know no one there. And if I did, then I would cry for the one I knew, not the other 2,000,000 that died with them.

(no offense to anyone from Virginia)

I have a feeling that there are more people that feel this way then not, but they are just afraid to say so, because it's "not right".

OK, go about your buisness.

 

[Apollo]

First off, "double standard" is just a phrase. It doesn't really matter whether Arhar does or does not show a double standard. We can all see his opinion, agree with it if you want. Who cares if fits the definition?

Moving on, I must say that Arhar didn't say he didn't care, he more or less said that he cared more when it happened to the Americans.

I'm probably the same way. I think we all have a bit of a "double standard" (). When I hear about thousands dying in another country, I am certainly sad, but when I saw the WTC crisis, I was horrified and pissed. Why? Well, you identify with these people. I share more in common with Americans, with people that are from my country and have much the same lifestyle I do. But I can't really understand what life is like for people in Bosnia/Rwanda, and who they are, so it's hard to pay as much attention as I would to an American crisis.

 

[DÛke]

...

Spiderman, I'm gonna refrain from answering your questions for the time being. You seem to go deep into a matter that was, from the beginning, supposed to relate 2 similar situations. It was so hard for me to explain the situation of the U.S., so I explained by degrading it into a smaller scale: a person and his family. Period. That was it.

MrX, my tone is simple, and I have been calm all the way through this mess until Mr. Arhar came in and: "you seem to care about the Arab world more," or "why are you here." I know it seems like just simple comments, but the second comment, I've been asked by other 3 members: Almindhra, Ura, and now Arhar. It's insulting. Of course, you probably don't know how it feels.

I don't care if Arhar has been "honest" about his opinion at all. The issue is that Gizmo (and even I) is criticized for the same things that Arhar has been seen as being "honest" for. Simply, Gizmo and I are having almost the exact things to say about the issue as Arhar, but we're not saying it in terms to befriend the U.S. (or insult it), just like Arhar is not stating his opinion as to befriend the world. Right there, that's unfairness. You treat Arhar as being "honest" not because he's honest, but becase he's on the U.S. side - if that's not the case for your treatment - then please justify all the recent criticizm of Gizmo, and even me - me, whom is criticized by Arhar himself, when simply I'm saying the same thing as he is, but from a complete 360-degree turn. If your idea of being honest and just is being on the U.S. side (that's what has been implied so clearly so far) than you are nothing but a person who is selfish. It's that simple.

Gizmo implied that he did not care about the U.S. lives lost, and you know what happened. Virus emails. Members losing their heads. Gizmo was being honest. He was "rewarded."

I said that war is not the answer (and that's basically all my aim), and suddenly "I'm anti-American", or a troublemaker. Questions like "why are you here" were arisin even. That was my reward for being honest.

Arhar says so clearly and openly that he doesn't care about the others life, not much anyway. He's been war-hungry from the beginning, and obviously, he does not care about all the innocent lives that are to die outside the U.S. Yet he's the "honest" man of us all. He's the one who stated is opinion, and you all are thankful for that. He's been "so calm about it," and you know why? Because you people don't criticize him as much and as hard. He simply says whatever he wants, than contradicts, than he even admits he's a hypocrite...but still, as long as he's not against the U.S. actions, then it's ok. He's honest.

Well, guess what boys: Gizmo and I are just as honest as Arhar - and even more so - and personally, though I respect Arhar and his opinions, I don't consider Arhar as being honest. Rise and shine. At least niether of Gizmo nor I have not said things that are of obvious (and painful) hypocracy. Truely, in my opinion, I like Gimzo's straightforward, unshifty honesty better than the twist-and-turn "honesty" of Arhar.

I believe that is one of the reasons Gizmo tries to restrain himself from speaking out. Many of us are saying the same thing, and taking the same actions. Bush's speech, and Bin Ladin's. Arhar, Gizmo, and I. Yet, only the U.S. side is the "right" side. Please don't tell me that "nobody stated that the U.S. side is the right side," because sure, it has not been stated, but watch me, Gizmo, or Lotus Mox say something so little that doesn't flow with the U.S., and you'll see a hell breaking loose. Bush can say "with us or against us," basically stating there there's no neutral opinion, there there's no other correct state of mind, yet Bush is the "great man." Bin Ladin says something of the same stupidity, yet he's the "evil." He's "satan." Arhar says he doesn't care much about lives outside the U.S., and that's not a matter of discussion. Gizmo says the same thing about U.S. citizens, and that's more than just a war.

You guys don't make sense to me at all anymore. The lines between just and unjust have been extreamly violated...

Apollo:But I can't really understand what life is like for people in Bosnia/Rwanda, and who they are, so it's hard to pay as much attention as I would to an American crisis.

What do you need to know? All that should be important is that they're human beings with hearts, souls, and feelings. Is that not enough to gain your sympathy? I'm sorry...

 

[arhar]

So many posts in one day, so much to answer....

Where to begin? First of all, it was, of course, expected that when I said I care MORE about deaths in USA than deaths in Somali people would say things like "arhar admits that he doesn't care about people dying in Somali!" A big THANK YOU goes to Apollo, and Spiderman for seeing what I actually said. Of course I didn't mean that I don't give a rat's behind about people in Somali!!! All I said that I cared MORE about people dying in WTC. Again, this is me just being completely honest. And before saying "how can you be like that?" think about last time you heard something terrible happened in some other remote part of the world. My guess is you said "Oh, how terrible!" and went back to lunch, or playing Magic: the Gathering. There's nothing wrong in admitting that you care about what happens to the people you can relate to more than about people who you're hearing about for the first time.

Now, the question that seems to be on some people's lips is "Why Gizmo was flamed when he said the same thing about America?" Well, D'OH!!!!!!! If ABSOLUTE MAJORITY of this board was from Somali, do you think I wouldn't get flamed like hell?!?? Of course I would! But alas, the majority of the people on this board are from America! Gee, what's so hard about it?

Now, Gizmo...

If Arhar is willing to admit that he doesnt care about the rest of the world then he should accept that I dont care about whoever was in the WTC, which should mean we can all live happily ever after, having agreed that we dont care about each other.


Agreed 100%. I think we should put this behind us, although I still don't understand why you're ignoring me telling you that I wish you no harm at all and I didn't send you those death threat e-mails. Maybe you just didn't get to read them?

Spidey: "In character"? Hmmm... I'm not sure what do you mean by this... I'm sure enough not "playing a character" here.. I'm being myself and expressing all my views, exactly what I think. I think if that wasn't the case, this discussion wouldn't be so heated

Now, Duke...


Arhar, let's not even TALK about intelligent conversations. You and I have NOTHING in common any more. Period. Not even intelligence.


Whatever you say, brother. By saying this, you completely confirmed what I was thinking of you before. You seem to be so calm that you wouldn't hate somebody who killed your family but you can't keep up an intelligent conversation on the Internet message board? Seems pretty hypocritical to me. And, if you think MY comments about you not belonging here are infuriating, think about how YOUR comments are infuriating to me. However, so far I have not insulted you a single time, and in every post of yours you insinuated that somehow you're much higher, calmer and more intelligent than me. I was asking you a simple question - why are you here? And you completely flipped out. Now who's the hot-headed one?


MrXarvox: Throughout all I've seen here in this thread, your problem HAS been making assumptions (the quoted post is bursting with them) and arhar has been honest and fair, and has NOT failed to see your point of view. Just because he doesn't agree with you doesn't mean he fails to see your point of view.
And you flame and you flame and you flame, and then you speak to me of "rambling on bulls**t".
Get a grip. If anyone's "losing it" here, it's you.

Thank you for understanding. I think too often people think because of my views, I'm being disrespectful, and you're one of the first ones to see that in actuality, I've been calmer than many.
I don't claim to be fair (depends on one's definition of fair) but I know I'm always being 100% honest.

Zadok:

It's not arhar's double-standard, it's almost universal. As much as I dislike it, I personally have that double-standard pretty well ingrained into me. I barely noticed when people chattered about the Balkans, but the WTC shocked me to the core. I believe that does qualify as a double-standard, and I think a good number of people on this board are as affected by it as I am.


Boom. Nailed it. Exactly what I was trying to say.

Again, my good friend Duke:


Arhar says so clearly and openly that he doesn't care about the other's life. He's been war-hungry from the beginning, and obviously, he does not care about all the innocent lives that are to die outside the U.S. He's the "honest" man of us all. He's the one who stated is opinion, and you all are thankful for that. He's been "so calm about it," and you know why he's been so calm about it? Because you people don't criticize him as much and as hard. He simply says whatever he wants, than contradicts, than he even admits he's a hypocrite...but he's honest and calm - well of course!


Sigh... Now you're putting words in my mouth. Point me to where I say I don't care about the other's life. And while you're at it, point me to where I've been a hypocrite, as well. Thanks!

 

[Mr.Gnome]

WoW, ! this discussion is getting heated! Maybe everyone should cool down and just accept other people's positions on this event without going flame crazy. That said I would like to voice my opinion on attacks on the Taliban. I fully support these attacks on the Taliban because 1. They don't target innocents, and 2. Innocents are being given food and other resources that they need to survive. Had this attack been against Afganistan in general then I would be completly against them. Hopefully this can be solved without anymore innocent people dieing and hopefully this will be the only attack.

 

[DÛke]

...

Arhar:
Actually, I agree with you on this. You are right. Of course, when people die in other countries, I feel bad, but mostly I only care about what happens here. When 6000 die in America, I care about it a lot more than if 6000 people die in Somali. This is just my point of view. Obviously, now that I posted it, I expect posts like "How could you say something like that, that's inhumane!"... But the fact of the matter is, a lot of people feel like that, but they're not saying it out loud, because it's not P.C.

That's where you gave the notion of hypocracy. You have a hypocritical notion, that's by saying: "I expect posts like 'How could you say something like that, that's inhumane!'" You didn't like what Gizmo said about the U.S. before, and by saying the same thing, you have just showed hypocracy.

Arhar, you keep going at me, thinking that I think I'm better than you, or what was it - "holier"? I'm sorry that you think I feel that way, because I never even suggested it. Who's putting words in another's mouth now?

When another part of the world suffers, yes, I do ask questions. I do discuss it. I do try to see what and why it happened. I know that's not normal, to care about the entire world, but that's me. Believe it or not, I do know what I'm saying...and I don't expect any of you to follow my path on it. I don't think many of you have relatives and friends in over 50 countries...so I don't want you to feel the way I do, but I do want you to know that just because I feel what I feel, does not mean I'm not normal...it only means that I have had different experiences. That's all. It should be needless to explain that having so many relations all over the globe competely justifies my words, and from carring about my own people around the globe, I have learned to have sympathy for everyone in general...because I'm glad that I have discovered the fact that's rarely discovered: we are all just equal people, no matter where we live, and no matter what we posses...

 

[arhar]

No, that's not how it happened. Gizmo got pissed at me for me being a proponent of war and revenge. And, Gizmo didn't just post that, he posted something like "America had it coming", and only then I got pissed. I may not cry when people in Bosnia die, but I don't say they deserve it.

True, you didn't say those things, but notice how I used the word "insinuated". It's the overall tone, and small remarks about me having no intelligence, and the fact that I never said that about you. Also, those little quotes from you yourself at the end of your posts.... What's the point of that? Usually, people quote someone from the past, etc... And you just quote yourself, The Great Duke!

If you are truly like that, you love everyone no matter who they are, and you view everybody as equals, good for you. But somehow I'm not convinced...