It has begun.

[Gizmo]

Arhar - I never said that. TomB and (I believe) Griffith claimed that I said that, but they were lying.

I think I said something more like 'an attack like this was coming' and that you could see that it was rooted in American foreign policy decisions. I think both points, even put together, stop short of 'the US deserved it' whch I was repeatedly misquoted as saying, a long with a number of other things which people claimed I had said.

I simply refuse to see the US as a shining white knight. It acts out of self interest as much as any other nation, and as it is more powerful it`s influence is felt more widely and warps the deal more in its favour. *I dont doubt that a hundred years ago the British Empire was as bad and worse.* The way that US policy has developed in the Arab world over the last fifty years has caused great tension and hatred among fundamentalists (ie, arab patriots). That is the root cause of the attack - US insensitivity towards the wishes of Islamic Foreign Policy Actors.
And similarly, the attack WAS coming, because US security towards the possibility of terrorist attack was so lax that a major mainland terrorist strike was inevitable.


BUT dont brand me an anti-American or anything. Just because you, as a fundamentalist American, choose to link your fortunes, and the fortunes of all Americans, inextricably to the State, does not mean that I also do so. When I criticise US policy I do not criticise the country of America. I criticise the individuals in power who made those decisions. When I say Bush is a lobotomised gibbon who I wouldnt trust to peel a banana let alone run a country, it says nothing of what I think of America, especially considering you didnt even vote him into office.

Too many of my posts have been read without anybody bothering to consider them from my perspective, and instead have been misread and had their meanings twisted to something else. And in some cases people straight up made up lies about me and what I had said in order to make other people attack me.

Oh well.

 

[DÛke]

...

Gizmo, actually, I have listened to all opinions, including yours with a full open mind and heart. I only find yours to somehow match mine, in that yours look into the global, universal, cause and effect, and the more general perspective rather than the local and personal. I one of those who did not misread your words. They're as clear as can be.

Arhar, I can quote myself if I wish. There's nothing wrong with that. You're too analytical. I'm sorry that you feel I'm placing myself above you, but hey, suit yourself. It is not my intent. I am not going to bother to convince you about my carring-ness to others. I can't explain myself fully with mere words. I'm deeper than and fully beyond that. If you remember our little chat on AIM from a long time ago, you should have noticed how very impressed I was by your Magic articles, and your ability to write after only being in the U.S. for 4 years. By that, you should know I have and will respect you. If you somehow feel I'm placing myself above you, than it's safe to say, and sorry to say it, but that's the result of insecurity on your part. Believe me, Arhar, if I think you're stupid, I would have pointed it out so clearly, you wouldn't miss it at all. Additionally, I wouldn't be wasting my time trying to discuss this with you. Even more so, I wouldn't be writing this very post. Just by replying to you, you should know that I value your opinion...but you have to admit, you and Spiderman even, are busy looking too deeply into everything, without getting the full big picture...

The big picture itself is so clear and easy to see, and it's safe to say that I haven't been so clear on pointing it out, but you haven't either Arhar. However, Gizmo has put it well, despite the fact that he was threatened, and felt uncomfortable talking about it in the first place.

"If only can one see beyond the horizon..." -- DÛke

 

[Zadok001]

That's the definition of horizon, Duke... You can't see past it.

 

[DÛke]

...

I'm an enigma freak, Zadok...

 

[Spiderman]

arhar: What I meant by "in character" was that I didn't think you were being hypocritical or pulling a double standard (which, according to the definition that Rando provided, seems to imply you are now, but that's not what I understood what a "double standard" meant).

Gizmo: If people are misquoting you, you should surely ask them to back up their supposed quotes of you by asking them to find them and re-quote you.

DUke: I'm sorry if I was making your example more complicated; however, it seems to me that like the current real life situation now, there is more than meets the eye and not everything is so "black and white". I thought I was merely extending the analogy so that it also paralleled the real world; if you choose to eventually answer my extended analogy, perhaps more understanding could be gained by what the world is doing today.

but you have to admit, you and Spiderman even, are busy looking too deeply into everything, without getting the full big picture...

The big picture itself is so clear and easy to see, and it's safe to say that I haven't been so clear on pointing it out, but you haven't either Arhar. However, Gizmo has put it well, despite the fact that he was threatened, and felt uncomfortable talking about it in the first place.

I'd like to think that I am getting the big picture, but like you say, what exactly IS the picture that I'm not getting? I've already said Gizmo has made good points and I agree with him, so what else am I missing that you two are seeing?

To be honest, your statement is a rush of ice water in that I don't think you see the full picture. Your not responding to my extended analogy gives me the perception that you don't care to, which means you just like to take things as far as you want to take them and "bugger" the rest of the things others have to say (heh, what a word, "bugger" ). I don't know whether this perception is warranted or that's what you had intended to project, but that's what's coming across to me.

So I respond to you: I'm sorry, but I'm not convinced that you yourself can see the big picture. Maybe it's like you say, that you haven't explained it very well. Maybe the fault is mine for not showing that I understand the big picture, whatever you think it may be.

Maybe writing on the boards is not the best to be discussing things like this...

 

[DÛke]

...obviously, from the over dose of explanation we have to do on the same thing over and over again means that discussing these kind of issues on a message board is not a great thing.

Ok, Spiderman...while I gave my fully misunderstood little "metaphor," you, MrX, and Arhar were busy talking about it rather than the picture it was trying to paint: which was that under any circumstance, justice and logical thinking must be made before any actions should be taken. That was all, but no. MrX, for example, was talking about me personally at that time, while Arhar then exclaimed that I'm "hot-tempered," and that if I can't calm myself down in a "simple" discussion, then how can I calm myself down when my whole family is slaughtered. That's not the case...but you guys flew with the conversation much further than I intended for anyone. Still, however, I will tell you, I will only want justice put to the criminal, nothing more, and nothing less. If I find a "logical" reason as to why he had done such a thing (such as my family has killed many of his family members), then I will "excuse" that criminal, but still want him put to justice, because he treated the wrongs of my family with a medicine that is wrong on its own right.

I'm afraid, now, that I gave an extended version, some of you might take it to deeper grounds. The point is, you don't fight war with war. You don't treat a criminal with a criminal act, but with justice, no matter what kind of act the murder has commented, for justice should stand above all, and be the first on the list...

This is not saying the U.S. has not taken the right actions so far. I admit, I don't want the U.S. to be bombing Afgan right now, but that's just me. I don't like war. I also admit that it is one of the good actions the U.S. has taken so far, but I still have my own personal thoughts about it. I will admit that the U.S. needs to treat this with more than just violence, it needs to look at itself as a whole, and plan reconstruction not just in security and such, but everything, this includes how the other world is treated. The U.S. must learn to not support its allies only; this pits countries against each other, and make others hate the U.S. It should be obvious from the tragedy that the U.S. is not really that fond of, and not everyone looks at it as a leader - and it's not a leader. This is not talking about this single tragedy, this is referring to the whole past...

And yes, Spiderman, I believe I see the big picture. I admit my guilt for being unable to portray it, but I do see it.

 

[Spiderman]

I think I see what you're saying, and saw that before. What I was attempting to do with extending it was ask: How far and long are you willing to go to get your "justice" (which I don't think you ever said what THAT was; I looked back on this thread). You seem to assume or stop the analogy that the guy is in your house after killing your family, where presumably he is easily gotten. All I was asking is what if he's not in your house or easily gotten? Do you pursue him for x number of years to find the reason so you can understand it fully? Or do you let it go after x number of years?

And again, this is of course assuming that you get a reason that you can understand, which you seem to have assumed right off the bat. I personally think that matters, but it's my understanding that you don't think it does.

It's stuff like this, where not every scenario is considered, just one straight and narrow, which leads me to believe that you do not or cannot see the big picture. Sorry, but that's my perception of it

 

[Griffith_se]

To Gizmo:
This is not intended to be a flame.

OK, I really don't like being called a liar.
If I said something like that, it was because I believed you said it.

Besides

I don't think that I claimed you said, "You deserved it."

I went back and dug up the initial exchange, mind you this is within a couple hours of the incident.
My tone was hostile (I think that it should have been understandable).

I still believe that you like being controversial.
I think you just enjoy playing devils advocate.
If I'm right or if I'm wrong, doesn't matter, I still like you.

I've tried to apologize to you, if I took your comments wrong, but as of yet you have not excepted.

For your interpretive pleasure.
No, you did not say "You deserved it"
Confirmed.

Originally posted by Gizmo
I think a lot of reports are going to be proved wrong later. RIght now all confirmed are 2 hit WTC and 1 hit Pentagon, 1 crashes outside Pittsburgh.

Apparently 80% of the web is down as servers are overloaded.

1) People are dead. Thats blatantly terrible
2) Terrorism sucks
3) This was coming, you cant keep pissing on people with bombs and expect them not to use them.
4) We can only hope that this WILL affect the Israeli situation and force a solution. I think it is a response to the fact that the US withdrew from peace talks in Israel within about 8 hours of a week-long schedule.

Bush and Sharon played chicken with religious fanatics who are willing to die, they can hardly be surprised it happened.

OK, here I'm asking questions.

Originally posted by Griffith_se
Pissing on People?
Well maybe, but you ain't seen nothing yet.

The talks in Israel?
The animals that did this have no intrest in peace, agree or disagree?

Surely I know You better than this, your not Actually suggesting that those thousands of people were asking for it?

I'm just so angry and sick I don't know what to say.

Originally posted by Gizmo
Two things. Griffith - I dont think that the people in the world trade centre were asking for it, but I do think that this sort and scale of attack is the logical outcome of the continued foreign policy techniques of the US government over more than just the last few years, but right back to 1945.
For developing nations the US is Enemy#1, and have been unable to use the international political system to make their voices heard because of how much it is biased in the favor of western developed nations.

I think my earlier comment about this being linked to Israel is possible unwise, a defence analyst on the BBC correctly pointed out that even whent he Oslo Accords were in full flow and Israeli-Palestine relations were relatively good, Bin Laden was still lauching attacks against the US.

But I thought the whole point of the modern democratic system, and of the christian faith, was that violence should never be met by violence ("turn the other cheek"). Maybe Im being a pansy-ass liberal, with a conscience and everything, but I have lost all respect for anybody here who wants to mete out bloody revenge.

On another note Ive already got nearly 200 off-color jokes about this thing in my mailbox. Maybe I`ll keep them to myself though, eh... although I do note that KFC have withdrawn their Flaming Tower Burger from sale (actually true).

On another note Ive already got nearly 200 off-color jokes about this thing in my mailbox. Maybe I`ll keep them to myself though, eh... although I do note that KFC have withdrawn their Flaming Tower Burger from sale (actually true).

See, this is the type of thing that got me angry.
Why was that necessary. I never had any problems
with your opinions, its the getting poked with a
stick afterward part that gave me fits.

Here I state the way I think America will respond.

Originally posted by Griffith_se


You've lost respect for me?

Don't get Me wrong, I like you as a person, I think you can be a little snotty, but I like You.
Please don't think I want to get in a pissing contest.

I think you're wrong, I think putting pressure on countries that harbor these criminals is the correct solution. I think this is exactly what will happen

Sorry, I think America has turned the final cheek.

We will go down to there level, and fight them.

There is no peaceful solution, sometimes peace must be forced. Sad but true.

Then it all goes down hill from here, regrettably.

After the smoke has cleared:
My view, you where being a trifle bit snotty.
I was a trifle bit Hostile. But note, from my
Point of view I was trying to be a little light
Hearted with you, the little smile, calling you snotty. It was an attempt to lighten up the situation.

And once again, I will apologize if I misunderstand you, and if I said anything that truly hurt your feelings. I know my feelings have been hurt (didn't know War mongering brutes like me had feelings did ya? Growl)
I would also like to say that I am embarrassed that I let
My emotions run away with me (got me feel'in all ugly inside ), I don't like that.

From now on I will read carfully, and if something
sounds outragious to me, I will ask questions in a
calm cool collected manner. Hows that sound?
Or maybe I'll just ignore all this crap, that might even work better.

So, "can't we all just get along." You know, were
all on the same team, for better or worse.

I said a lot of stuff, can't recall all of it.
And I don't feel like looking at it again.
So, again. For anything that I said that was
exaggerated, wrong, or hurtful I'm sorry, OK?
By the same token though, if you where being a turd
on purpose I'm not.
Fair?

So... What did Ya think of the tele version of Dune?
Disappointed, I was?

 

[DÛke]

...

Do you know the big picture, Spiderman? If you can claim that I "don't see it," then perhaps you have the picture defined? Could you please share it? Please do not tell me that you "don't really know the picture," because you have clearly stated:

Spiderman to DÛke:
...you do not or cannot see the big picture...

If you can point me out as a one who cannot see, than please tell me what you see that I cannot see...

When I said that you and others are busy digging deep into superfluous matter, I mean my quote about the "murder and the family," which you guys took and evolved into a subject matter of its own, when really, all it was a simple, easy to understand metaphor.

So tell of your big picture that I obviously, according to you, miss...



"If peace must be 'enforced,' than make sure you enforce it in a peaceful manner..."

 

[Spiderman]

It's a good thing we can look back on this thread and see what we posted, 'cause I would hate for you to make such a grievious error of misquoting me.

Anyone who reads the quote that DUke gave above, raise your hands if you understand that to mean that I declare, unequivocally and without doubt, that I said that DUke does not or cannot see the big picture and thus he is wrong?

Now, read what I actually wrote:

It's stuff like this, where not every scenario is considered, just one straight and narrow, which leads me to believe that you do not or cannot see the big picture

Now does your perception of what I wrote change? 'Cause here is what I meant: That the stuff DUke is saying leads me to believe he does NOT see the big picture, not that he definitely does not or will not or cannot. He might truly be seeing the big picture but is not conveying well, at least to me.

There, now that the quote is put into context (and please do me the favor of quoting the whole thing), I will address DUke's statements.

I don't think I know the big picture. I don't think I know how the big picture can be defined right now. And yes, I will tell you this because as I've shown above, my quote is taken out of context and you are using faulty logic in thinking that because I claim that you do not know the big picture, I must. I am knowledgeable to admit that I do not or cannot know the whole picture, since I am only privy to the information that is released.

And I guess we'll have to agree to disagree with your metaphor, because you see it as simple and I see it as something that can be complex, perhaps enabling more of the picture to be seen.

 

[DÛke]

Spiderman
That the stuff DUke is saying leads me to believe he does NOT see the big picture, not that he definitely does not or will not or cannot. He might truly be seeing the big picture but is not conveying well, at least to me.

By my sayings, you are lead to believe that I do not see the big picture. I fail to see the difference between the quotes. Basically, you don’t think I am seeing the big picture, but I can if I wish. Right. How can you perceive my thoughts as having the probability of not seeing the picture, when, according to you, you don’t really know what the big picture is? Yes, you must know the big picture if you’re able to define others as those who may see and those who may not.

All of the above is a small matter, that I will not dig deep into.

About my simple metaphor: yes, it is simple, but I think you’re just looking for a way to “trip me over my own feet.” Well, I’m not taking my words back, and since you want to make the metaphor a new subject matter, than I shall. Though, I must admit, it seems to me that I am about to reconstruct something so simple into some major issue…

1. I come home one day, and find all my family slaughtered so badly.

2. I am enraged. I am sinking into a state of unbelievable depression. I make a promise between me and myself to haunt and personally punish the criminal who has done this.

>>>A. Now let’s suppose I can find the one who did that so easily, then, yes, I will defiantly practice my personal punishments on him. In which case I will have committed a crime for faliure to contact a higher figure, and taking a major issue into my own personal hands. I will be brought to justice.

>>>B. Now let’s suppose I can’t find the one who did it. In which case, we will follow the following steps:

3. I make major contacts with every possible police station, FBI, and whatsoever.

4. From there on, since I cannot find the person on my own, justice must be enforced.

5. The criminal is caught. He, like normal human beings, is questioned as to why he committed such an ugly crime.

>>>A. He does not give any logical explanation. He’s executed. Sadness and vengeance will always be within me forever.

>>>B. He does give a logical reason. A very logical reason. In fact, my family was the evil, and he was only the savior. Yes, sadness will always be within me forever, but needless to say, the man is still guilty for taking the matter into his own personal hands. He is punished.

>>>>>>I. I understand his reasons. I can't believe that my family is that evil, but he presents all the facts, and I can't do anything but agree that my family deserved it, for they were a harm. I wish they'd punish him harder, but hey, justice is justice...after all, may family was guilty.

>>>>>>II. I don't understand his reasons. It is forever burned in my mind that I must kill him for personal vengeance, even if though deep down inside, I know he's right in one way or another. I am hungry for vengance. I must kill...even though the guy is being punished anyway, by the law and justice, and even though that he only did the crime because he was, like me right now, enraged. I want to punish him myself. My state of mind is in complete daze. My logic has gone out the window. Thoughts like: "I'm right and he's wrong" overwhelm my mind. I'm right for wanting to defend my family, but he's not right for defending himself. He's inhumane, but I am humane, I just want revenge. I become a twisted person that only sees things my way, and not think why he did the crime in the first place. Sooo...

>>>>>>>>>a. I kill the guy. I fulfill my burning desire. I'm happy. Though I am no better than him, for I have commited a crime that, no matter how you look at it, can't be justified, because clearly, it was for my own personal satisfaction, and that only. It is because my faliure to understand his actions, which are now very similar to mine. By killing him, I am an equal criminal as he is. Therefore...

>>>>>>>>>>>>1. I am caught by the authorities. I am put to death for murdering someone, even though I had a reason. A stupid reason, especially when the man justified himself perfectly, and is being punished anyway...by justice. Even though he was punished, and suffered...by my family. I'm just an idiot that can't understand this, and I don't care. As long as I have fulfilled my urges...I'm happy, but I'm dead...by justice...

6. In conclusion, justice has been made.

 

[Spiderman]

Now THAT is something I can understand from you. Although from your example, I would have thought in 2A, you would have followed it with 5, trying to find a reason, rather than immediately practicing your "personal punishments" on him. I guess it's like a "Choose your Own Adventure" since there are many possibilities.

By my sayings, you are lead to believe that I do not see the big picture. I fail to see the difference between the quotes. Basically, you don’t think I am seeing the big picture, but I can if I wish. Right.

The difference between the quotes is that your sentence before "Right" is NOT what I'm saying. Thank you for saying how it came out to you.

THIS is what I'm saying:

He might truly be seeing the big picture but is not conveying well, at least to me.

I am acknowledging that you MAY be seeing the big picture but is not saying it clearly enough to let me (or others) see that you do.

So let's stop beating around the bush: Exactly what IS the big picture that you see? So we are all starting on the same foot here.

 

[Almindhra]

Make the bad people go away!!...Make the bad people go away!!...Make the bad people go away!!...Make the bad people go away!!...Make the bad people go away!!...

Mommy?...DaDa?...

 

[Apollo]

Oy, this whole "big picture" stuff is getting as bad as the "double standard" a few pages back.

DUke, just out of curiousity, I'd like to reiterate Spidey's question some time back (at the risk of beating this stupid analogy into the ground one time too many):

Suppose the guy murders your family. He is not caught, but runs away and hides in your neighbors house. You know he did it, but you don't know his reasons. And your neighbors refuse to give him up. The only way you are going to learn and understand his exact reasons, the only way you will get justice, is to catch him, but to do that you may have to forcefully get past your neighbors. How do you proceed (discounting the authorities; in this picture, there are no authorities, just you)?

Again, just out of curiousity.

 

[DÛke]

...

Spiderman, the "big picture" that I see is very, very general. It even reflects most of Gizmo's opinion. From my personal knoweldge, from what I have been taught, from what I have seen, from what I have heared, and from what I have experienced, I think the attack against the U.S. is nothing but something like a "wake up call," telling us some very, very basic things: We are not the best in the world, we are humans with feelings, we can be the target of evil, and we ourselves have shaken the rights of others in the past and this whole attack is very possibly the effect of that. After the storm is done, the logical actions left to do is to rethink everything the U.S. has been standing up for from the beginning up until the tragedy.

The people of the U.S., the "Americans", must learn that the world = the U.S. and the U.S.= the world; Americans = humans and humans = Americans; many people of the world have suffered in one way or another by the U.S. or by others; nobody deserves anything like this to happen to them, but understand that it happened for a reason, and the reason, if you just think about it, is not really that illogical. Needless to say, the act is criminal indeed, but the reason...the reason is only logical, therefore was bound to happen sooner or later. Don't confuse that with "you deserve it," please. Read it as it is.

That, my dear friend Spiderman, is my big picture.

And stop saying "God Bless America," please...I've heard many people say "God Bless Us All," or "God Bless the World," and that's really more appropriate, especially if you believe that the U.S. is the greatest country, in terms of adapting others. That's what I believe. Also, I hate to say: I'm an "Iraqi," or I'm an "American," or I'm "French"...these boarders must be removed, especially inside the U.S. Also, erase black and white. Remember we're all the same no matter how much you try to differ us...

Apollo, in that case, I would still be very mad, and I will do everything to try to get to him, of course, by asking the permission of the people who're keeping him. If they wont give him up, I swear to God, I will not harm them, but leave them all alone until a better time comes. If they give him up, than I'll have my way with him. But see, the whole metaphor says that you must try to understand the deal, no matter how tragic it is. It is better to look at something and hate it, but know is the truth, than look at something, like it, but deep down inside you know it's not the whole truth. The whole metaphor is to tell you that understanding is the ultimate key to justice, and seeing the problem from it's very roots will even help more. As you can see from my outline, I ended up dead when I followed a path of not-understanding, yet I ended up in a path of pain and sadness when I did understand -- in pain and sadness, but alive, and deep down inside, I know I have listened to the right voice by understanding the action, no matter how selfish, ignorant, and murderous it is. The truth of life is always painful...you can't expect everything to be truthful and nice at the same time. The truth does hurt...and you can see that from my stupid metaphor.

I hope this clears up things about my metaphor...

 

[Spiderman]

Well, DUke, I would have to say that I agree with that assessment the "big picture". So how did we get to arguing?

I'm not sure about your assertion that we have to stop claiming ourselves as "Americans" or any other nationality. I can see where that might throw up walls and perceived differences but...

Off the top of my head, I'd say until the whole world is "how it should be", of which I have NO idea what that means, but not what it is today... maybe all one? Like the European Community (or whatever it's called), only encompassing the whole world? Or how in the Left Behind books, the anti-Christ sought to unite the whole world under his Global Community? Anyway, until that is so, I don't think it's wrong to take pride in your country. Sure, we all are humans, but there's still differences around the world.

It's kinda like the idea behind bilingual education or when other cultures come to the US; they want to "fit in" but they also don't want to lose what they left behind either.

Anyway, about your response to Apollo, I think what you're saying is the key is understanding. What if you don't get that understanding? What if the people refuse to hand him over, or he slips out in the night and you lose him? Do you keep searching for him for the rest of your days, trying to find that understanding, or do you give up at some point and try to come to "closure" on your own, the best that you can? How far do you go to get the understanding and thus, justice?

 

[Ura]

now that thats all been cleared up I have a question.
Its been established by pretty much everyone that the US has done some crappy things in the past and that people hate them for it, though I don't consider that a valid reason for any of the actions the terrorists have taken lately, I'm sure they think its just hunky-dory.
What about the 1000 or so other people who were killed in the WTC attack? The ones who aren't American. The 200 or so British could be put under the same analysis as the US in that they've done some crappy things before and this is somebodies twisted retribution, but how about the 150 Japanese citizens or the 200 Canadians. Are they just simply collateral damage, in the wrong place at the wrong time. Or are they just discriminated against because of where they were or their ethnic orientation as being just as bad as America in the minds of the hijackers.
The pentagon strike makes sense because its a US government military institution of great renown, the WTC is a civilian center with people from everywhere in the world, hence why its called the world trade center instead of the american trade center or some other such thing.
Japan hasn't done anything to anyone since WWII and their constitution absolutely forbids them from using their military for anything but home defense. They can't send troops, battleships, or fighter jets to any country for any military reason whether its for peacekeeping, attacking, or even a training exercise.
Canada on another hand hasn't done anything to anybody, well, ever as far as I know besides being involved in major conflicts like WWII and whatnot. To be honest the military here is so pathetically underfunded and mothballed that we couldn't even if we wanted to. Canada has the unique status in the world of being a country of peace, diplomacy, and humanatarian aid. Even the wishy washy group of ships and troops that our prime minister sent to support the US and Britain are just for launching humanatarian operations and communications. Yet today I read front page news that a Canadian aircraft technician in employment of the Kuwait government at a Kuwait airbase was assassinated last night and his wife badly wounded by a man shouting "god is great" and praising bin laden. Kuwait officials speculate the attack was pre-meditated, though at this point in time it could have just been a random attack against a white guy who wasn't dressed as a traditional muslim.
To me there are no reasons for these people to be dead other then blind discrimination by a group of terrorist upstarts hiding behind religious excuses and complaints against a totally different country.
At this point as far as I'm concerned Osama bin Laden and his thugs are nothing more the cranky bitches with a big budget and a bad attitude.

 

[Daggertooth]

If someone were to break into my neighbors house and kill them I would be sad. Especialy if they were my friends. But if this person would come into my house and kill my family I would be pissed off. To me thats not human deaths = human deaths. It's neighbors < Family. Pure testiment to my double standards. Which is the same way I view this event.

I felt the terrorists destruction from thousands of miles away. I was greatly saddened to see thousands of Americans die. It made me madder to see those hero's who risked their lives, the firemen and policemen, to die. I understand their perspective, that thanks to our foregn policy for oil and our suppost of Jerusalam they have suffered. That tens of thousands have been killed directly or indirectly because of us. And I'm sorry for that.....But they're still going to die. Sure, try to stop colateral damage as much as possible, but nobody's perfect.

As for the person that hypotheticaly killed my family. I would catch him, granted I wouldn't have to kill him trying. Then figure out why he did these acts. Then after all is said and done, all is calm and cool, and I've figured out the reasons, regardless of what was said I would kill him.

Thats how I wish to resolve this situation. In the end those who did this will die.


Daggertooth

 

[DÛke]

...

Ura, you don't really understand it. See, when others are happy or are careless about what happened to the U.S., they're not actually happy for the lost lives. Each of us knows that the innocent must not be killed that way...the "radical" reactions you've seen is towards the U.S. government, only. If you want to question the reason behind the killing of innocent Japanese, Canadians or whatsoever that were killed on the WTC, perhaps you should question the death of the innocent Arabs first. They didn't deserve it either. They're still dying, by the way. The idea is that no individual deserves it, but the whole "label," like "America," and "Iraq," that's the main target. Not innocent people. Bin Ladin is different, he wants to kill innocent people, and although I in no way can justify that stupid mindset, I can certainly understand it. He's an extream person who's willing to fight exactly, eye for an eye and so on. He treats it like: you have killed innocent people in the past, and so should we. That's not the way to solve problems, but as you can see...that's how the major political figures and those with power think.

Spiderman, can't you drop the metaphor for once!? I clearly displayed all my thoughts into the metaphor. If I can find him, I'll kill him. If I can't, I wont. If I understand his reasons, than I'll let justice deal with it, if I don't, than I'll deal with it myself, which is wrong. If someone "harbors" him, than I'll negotiate: if he's given to me, than I'll deal with him; if he's not given to me, than I'll contact the authorities. If he escapes beyond me and authorities, yes I'll search for him until the end of my days, and deal with him personally, which is first trying to understand the reason, most likely, if he runs away like that, he wouldn't have any good reason, so I'll just finish him right there (which is wrong), but if he does have a reason that I do understand, than, truely, I'll report him to the authorities and let him be with justice.

 

[Spiderman]

Ura: In answer to your question, I believe you pretty much answered it here:

. Are they just simply collateral damage, in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Despite the name "World Trade Center", it was on American soil, a powerful financial symbol, and target at least since 1993. That's pretty much it.

I would almost say the same of the UN, except I think there is not such a disproportionate amount of Americans working there as there was at the WTC.

Also, I believe the Japanese are trying to get a bigger role in this, probably financially but maybe militarily; my mind's a bit hazy on it since it hasn't been mentioned recently (like the last week).

DUke: I think I can drop it since you've finally carried the metaphor all the way through and covered all of the bases this time