Invasion... too powerfull?

Discussion in 'General CPA Stuff' started by terzarima, Sep 20, 2000.

  1. Gizmo Composite: 1860

    Well I don`t know how, but I managed to pull a Tempest deck from my Sealed Invasion Prerelease - a deck of 2/2 creatures with evasion and a bunch of Master Decoys.
    That`ll be me going virtually unbeaten then, I only lost to Shivan Zombies all day because they could be nethier Annihilated nor Benalish Trappered. Virtually every game was decided by my 2/2 Prot geezers.

    But my opponents played with SO many bad monsters that I must have gotten lucky I think.
  2. arhar Member

    This has been mentioned in this thread before, but I'll repeat it again: MAKE UP YOUR MIND, PEOPLE! Gosh. I think heard too much complaining during Urza's block T2, which btw was balanced near the end, considered that Replenish and Bargain decks, which were totally broken, didn't get played by everybody, and there existed a whole bunch of great deck archetypes, even in tournaments. Anyway. Almost every casual player I've met IRL or on the 'net was complaining about broken cards. What do I see now? Everyone's complaining about lack of power cards! If I was R&D now, I'd probably curse and rip out my hear in anger: "Just what exactly do those people want?!?!? We do exactly as they want, and they still not happy?!?" Please, don't try to make a distinction between broken cards like Academy and "fun, powerful" cards like Living Death. Every "fun, but powerful" card can be made horribly broken by Zvi's of the world. Now you have two sets in a row (Prophecy and Invasion) that emphasize on big, fun creatures and you are not happy?

    Ok, enough of that. Now my opinion on a set. I haven't formed an opinion on it in T2, but I think it ROCKS in limited. What a great set for a booster draft!

    PS: Armored Guardian - a new Limited Morphling.
  3. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    This (so far) must be the one thread for this week that always sprouts during the the weekend.

    First off, I gotta apologize to Gizmo because I take all the blame for this thread. It was nice and quiet on Thursday and I asked Gizmo a simple question on his views on casual play in general (maybe I should have PMed it) and bam! it exploded.

    I was just curious on Gizmo's views on casual play and I thank him for posting them. I didn't see it as a slam or flame on the play-style in general; just his views which I don't think have never been expressed before. And to be honest, I have to agree about tourney players (in general) are probably better players than non-tourney (note: not necessarily casual) in that they have to be VERY aware of the rules; one mistake and they're most likely gone. Now you can have non-tourney players be very rules-minded too; it's just that with that kind of atmosphere that does not penalize loose moves, in general you play looser (see Zadok's article that kind of relates to this too).

    Anyway, expanding more on this thread, I didn't think anyone was REALLY flaming, except for Ura's first post for which he apologized later. Again, I'm sorry for being the most likely person for starting it up. Most people have their views and expressed them pretty reasonably.

    Oh, and from WAY back on the first page of this thread, I have to agree with Griffy about casual play: it pretty much means to me what cards I have too. I'm a terrible trader and haven't bought any cards recently so I'm stuck with what I got. Even with Apprentice and stuff where all the cards are available to me, I just like sticking to the cards I actually have; makes it easier :)
  4. Gizmo Composite: 1860

  5. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    was reading it around the same time as posting above and it has a much more moderate approach than A. Forsythe's article.
  6. Ura Feline Lord of the Pit

    Thats a much much much better article. :)
  7. Apollo Bird Boy

    Arhar: you're comparing Living Death and Academy? Jeez! No one ever broke Living Death. You never saw a tournament completely dominated by Living Death. You say the Zvi's of the world could break it, but they never did. Nor did anyone break Spike Weaver, or Tradewind Rider, or Wrath of God, or Phyrexian Plaguelord, or Shard Phoenix, or a ton of other "fun, powerful" cards. They may have made a good deck around them, but they weren't broken like Academy, Tide in general, Rec/Sur (maybe), MoMa, Time Spiral, Bargain (extended) and Replenish (for a time). There is a distinction. We want good, non-broken cards. We don't want broken cards and we don't want chaff (Invasion). You say R&D has given us what we want, but they haven't. That's the problem.

    By the way, who says big creatures are necessarily "fun" (other than you)? When was the last time you saw Scaled Wurm called "fun"?
  8. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    LOL

    I actually looked at Lotus Guardian, and then turned to my brother and said "see, some invasion cards DO really suck!"
    If you have 7 mana and need 1 mana of a certaqin color, chances are, you're already dead.

    Reya, meanwhile, will be god in sealed, but not much else.
    The are no great cards in invasion, just a whole lot of generally good/mediocre ones.
  9. Chaos Turtle Demiurgic CPA Member, Admin Assistant

  10. Killer Joe Active Member

    I liked how even handed he was about expressing his opposing view, if I were "The Ferrett", I wouldn't be insulted, I just might be careful the next time I write an article and not make soooo many generalizations.
    I have this to say:
    -I am a frustrated Tournament player
    -I do love multi-player games more than anything else in magic
    -I have experienced "BAD" Karma from pro-tour "wanna-be's" (not pro-tour players)
    -I have had some of the best times at a PTQ (like when I played Rising Waters-it was "FUN" to win!)
    -I know casual players that HATE tounament players because of a lack of self-confidence
    -I always try to improve my game by playing with better cards, as long as I can get them
    -And finally, I do like sub-crappy decks, like my "Erratic-Spikes" (although, I do win alot with it in multi-player games).
  11. Gizmo Composite: 1860

    They`ve all been saying very unkind things about me:
    http://www.starcityccg.com/index2.shtml
    :(
    *sob*

    This was my reply - gave the CPA a bit of a plug on the way.

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    Well I seem to have struck a nerve by my attack on Invasion, but I`d like to make a bit of a rejoinder to those who have replied to my original article.

    Let`s start at the start, Deane Beman wrote:
    “What the release of the Masques block - and now the addition of Invasion - has done is to ensure that there will be a wide variety of competitive decktypes. Instead of preparing to face only a handful of archetypes, you may now need to prepare for just about anything!”

    I don`t think that you can say Masques Block has encouraged diversity of decktypes because hasn`t the whole trend of MBC tournaments been for people to complain about how there are only a couple of good decks? Rebels and Waters were always popular and the G/B and Cowardice decks were occasionally strong as the metagame shifted around but other archetypes appeared only fleetingly. Compare this to the UBC season twelve months ago, where there were Bargain decks, Suicide decks, Con-Troll decks, SquirrelPrison decks, Stompy decks, Pattern Of Rebirth decks...the list goes on. Prior to that the TSE constructed saw decks as diverse as Horsecraft, Living Death, Counterphoenix, Hatred, Sligh, TradeAwaken, White Weenie, and Curious George.
    It is my opinion that the dearth of creative decktypes in MBC is a direct result of the fact that very few cards in MBC are strong enough to make a deck succesful, and we have to bear in mind that the MBC season was only as popular as it was because Port and Lin Sivvi were banned, thus removing the whole of Tier One from MBC - naturally there will be more decktypes on Tier Two so the field diversified a little.

    Extrapolating from this I see a forthcoming Type-II season where a very small number of decks will emerge, each loyal and dependent upon one of the few powerful cards left in the environment, most of which come from either 6th Edition (Geddon, Wrath, Hammer, Crusade, Counterspell) or Nemesis (Tide, Wave, Burst). I don`t doubt that this will be a format that sees players success determined in a large part by play skill, but I don`t see that as necessarily a good thing as it can only come at the cost of deckbuilding ability. No matter how hard you try with Invasion card you will not be able to build a deck that has a significant advantage over your opponent`s deck.

    As to the question of having to face a variety of decks I disagree entirely because I think that many people are wrong about the way in which they consider an environment to have a variety of decks. Consider this analogy;

    There are two cafe`s on a single street, the first cafe is a simple cafe with no real bells or whistles. If you went to that cafe for a drink you would be able to choose from Orange Juice, Apple Juice, Banana Milkshake, Hot Chocolate, Pepsi, Tango, Sprite, Tea or a simple cup of Coffee. Just a couple of doors down the road is a Coffee Republic, if you went there for a drink they have straight Coffee, Decaf, Latte, Cappucino, Mocha, wierd brands of coffee bean from strange countries - every sort of coffee under the sun - they also serve Orange Juice, but that`s freshly squeezed and really expensive.
    Which cafe serves the widest ‘variety’ of drinks?

    Tempest and Urza`s Block provided cards that were powerful to support a range of decktypes that could be as fast as Hatred or Stompy or as slow as Draw Go and Counterphoenix. Masques and Invasion block support any number of midgame
    decks, but is that really more variety? I think it is not, and that quite the contrary to Deane`s comment I can now predict what my opponent will do more accurately when deckbuilding - I can predict that I won`t have to defend myself before the fourth turn Wrath Of God because I know he can`t get me below about 8 life by then. Nor will I have to worry about him sitting back and only tapping out when he finally draws his Morphling, because I know that the truly slow blue decks are no longer viable without Nevinyrral`s Disk, Masticore, Treachery or Powder Keg. I also know he won`t be trying to lock my mana down quickly with Opposition, nor need I worry about a deck trying to abuse vast sums of artifact mana.

    Pierre DuPont makes a good point - I am certainly only criticising Invasion for it`s impact on competitive Magic and in my defence I offer the fact that I never claimed otherwise. But at the same time I am not out of touch with the ‘casual’ players as I am one of the most active members of the Casual Player`s Alliance (http://www.magic-singles.com/cpa) and I was very interested by how mixed the response of my fellow CPA members was. This is also elevent to what Jim Grimmett wrote:

    “Dave gives his opinion that Invasion is a bad set. I disagree and, what's more important (just so we don't degenerate into a writer war) EVERY SINGLE PERSON I spoke to about Invasion at the prerelease disagreed. They all loved the set.”

    Below are some of the comments made on the CPA message boards, I have to emphasise that not far from everybody disliked Invasion and if anything they came out about 60-40 in favour of it, but this is from a group of people who have previously greeted sets with nothing but general acclaim and individual gripes about potentially broken cards:

    “It's balanced and boring. Zzzzz *yawn*”
    -Darsh

    “People so desperately want to believe that WOTC actually made a good set. Ya know what? Prophecy was fairly good. Invasion concentrates too much on the late game. Unless your deck has extremely fast mana, you don't need more than 4 big fatties in a deck.”
    -Multani

    “No one ever broke Living Death. You never saw a tournament completely dominated by Living Death ... or Tradewind Rider, or Wrath of God, or Phyrexian Plaguelord, or Shard Phoenix, or a ton of other "fun, powerful" cards. They may have made a good deck around them, but they weren't broken like Academy, Tide in general, Rec/Sur (maybe), MoMa, Time Spiral, Bargain and Replenish (for a time). There is a distinction. We want good, non-broken cards. We don't want broken cards and we don't want chaff (Invasion). You say R&D has given us what we want, but they haven't. That's the problem.
    By the way, who says big creatures are necessarily ‘fun’? When was the last time you saw Scaled Wurm called ‘fun’?”
    -Apollo

    “Well, I like multicolor, but not this much multicolor. I like the set pretty much overall, except for one thing; There are very few new interesting cards. Just official and non reprints of old cards. The only new mechanics are kicker, pile, and Can`t Be Countered.
    I dont like that, I like new and interesting things.
    I think the Invasion set could have picked up the pace a little, with a little faster cards and perhaps more creature oriented.
    Anyway, I like the set, its 'ok'. Its playable, and looks fun.”
    -Foundation Of Rancor

    “There are virtually no good new ideas (sideways cards... sigh). This is the closest I have ever come to feeling that they have run out of ideas for Magic. They seem to want to turn Magic into little kid Magic. Play a huge creature and hit them until they play a bigger one. Then you play a bigger one. No strategy at all.
    Reminds me of another game...
    Well, not really. At least Magic still has spells. But they are all of the HUGE category, too. Games where nothing happens until the 5th turn when the 4/4's start coming out!
    And then the occasional 12 mana spell! Do these sound good to you? They sound incredibly boring to me.”
    -Apollo

    What I`m trying to say by showing these quotes is that I don`t think my view on Invasion is one that is mine alone. When I wrote my article I did so after discussing the potential for the set with upwards of thirty people from casual players at the CPA to other players I know from the tournament circuit, many of whom have experienced top-level Magic play. Zvi has begun his review of Invasion with the blue cards and so far his general opinion seems to be something along the lines of ‘God, I hope Type-II doesn`t get so bad that you`d actually want to use this’, which is precisely my own viewpoint.

    But after all that it is also worth remembering that there was a very good reason why I named my column ‘My Side Of The Argument’ - and I guess we`ll just have to wait a month or so to find out whose argument the Invasion will prove to be the correct one.

    And I`ll leave you with one final thought - there are many people who applaud Invasion because they think it will return Type-II to some sort of ‘golden age’, usually one epitomised by decks like ErnhamGeddon and CounterPost. I ask them, and you; was ErnhamGeddon really any more pleasant to play against than Living Death? Was CounterPost really more interesting than Accelerated Blue?

    Peace,
    David Sutcliffe
    d_sutcliffe@hotmail.com
    TEAM CAND!MAN
    http://members.tripod.co.uk/candiman/index.htm





    [Edited by Gizmo on September 26th, 2000 at 01:42 PM]
  12. Rando Freaky Bear

    Well said.
    It is good to see that there are a few players that are able to "bridge the gap" between the casual and tournament groups with out discounting either.
    It is only through actions such as these and people like this that the Magic community does not disolve into two factions completely. We may be teatering on the edge of division, but we are not there yet.
  13. Cateran Emperor Passed On

    Interesting article. I'm not sure if I've mentioned this per se, but I have no gripe with tournament players. I know some people who play in tournaments and are quite good at it. Heck, I'm even pretty good at it.

    Those I have a problem with are the uppity scrubbish PT wannabe players. I also know several of these. They have played Replenish ever since February and Nemesis made it popular. Before that they played Bargain. Before that Academy. Do you see the kind of player I'm referring too? The ones who have yet to build a single original deck and as such are imediately dismissing Invasion as a "pile" (no offense Giz) I personally love Invasion. I think it is the best set since Tempest by a lot. Yet at the same time, this is because I can already see which cards are interesting enough ideas or themes to work together to make a good deck. I beseech everyone here, try the cards first, judge them later.

    Gizmo, I'm quite sorry if it seems like I've been attacking you. I'm not intending for any of this to sound that way if it is. You have played with Invasion in the prerelease, and as such I respect your opinion on it however much I disagree. For me, Apprentice doesn't count nearly as much as actually playing. Give the set time, a lot of people said that Nemesis was horrible when they saw the spoiler ;)I know that you have posted original decks here. You have actually had fun every now and then. You are well above those referred to above. You are indeed bridging the gap, much as I tried to do on the MTGnews boards. And for that, I salute you sir. :cool:

    "If you haven't played with the cards and call it a pile, then I shall dub thee a scrub."
  14. Gizmo Composite: 1860

    This was really in reply to the stuff people have written on Starcity as opposed to here at the CPA.

    I know you all love me.
    ;)

    And don`t worry I don`t take people disagreeing with me at all personally, we are all entitled to an opinion and mine is no more valid than yours. I`ve been right quite often in the past, but that`s no sort of guide to my future predictions.
  15. arhar Member

    Thinking about it for a while, you're right, Apollo. Though Living Death HAS been broken, just not in tournament scene, and it has clouded my mind (my friend Bob's Surviving Death multiplayer deck). There is certainly a difference between fun/powerful cards and Academy.

    But I know someone who could call Scaled Wurm FUN. Me! :p Nothing better than to kill an opponent with a sub-par card.
  16. Thrash Golem New Member

    It's not everyone whining at every set..

    The casual players whine at sets like Destiny.

    The tournament players whine at sets like Prophecy.

    There, you're just saying everyone in general has to make up their mind. They are, but they're 2 different kind of people whining.
  17. Crazy Pierre New Member

    Puuuuuhlease give Invasion a break.
    So there are no Masticores...
    So there are no Morphlings or Treacheries...
    So there are no Processors or Tinkers.

    Is that a bad thing?
    My friend and I are building Deck2K, and it kicks butt, it
    is 75% Invasion cards!

    So instead of whining about the slowness, the lack of power,
    etcm USE YOUR HEADS and build something original!

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