Invasion... too powerfull?

Discussion in 'General CPA Stuff' started by terzarima, Sep 20, 2000.

  1. Thrash Golem New Member

    i think with the addition of so many multi color decks in the invasion environment, that brawler ponza will be very poopular
  2. Volradon Kicking it oldschool

    This is just the set which i have been waiting for ! I mean look at it, expensive spell with huge and extremely powerful abilities. I think i am gona love this set!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Also, there is nothing wrong with prophecy, it was kind of preparing us for invasion.
  3. Gizmo Composite: 1860

    Spiderman:
    "I'm curious and I don't know if you've mentioned it in the past: Do you build decks around wacky cards that other people might consider "casual"?"

    Not any more, a few years ago I was building 2-3 'casual' decks every day, giving them a quick airing (long enough for me to find out whether or not they worked) then scrapping them and using the cards in tomorrow`s deck. That`s probably why I`m such a good deckbuilder now - my deckbuilding evolution was 10-30 times faster than for most other players because I`d iterate decks every 24 hours not every month.

    But I`d still say that I could build a deck that would exploit any given card to it`s fullest in about 4 hours at most. I`ve not forgotten how to build casual decks, just how to build bad decks. My casual decks would still kick your ass because they`ll be good casual decks played really well. THAT`S the main reason I never play casually any more, because for most people I would be playing against casual is a byword for bad (decks and plays). My Grim Feast deck was gaining 50 life per turn by the time my opponent conceded...
    That`s why I stopped helping too many decks out, because I`d start every single reply with something like "these are the 20 spells you are using that are terrible, take them all out and use these instead". That`s not deck help, that`s making a brand new deck and people rapidly get pissed off with that. I check all new deck entries and if somebody flags up that their deck is for a competitition, or it`s only in need of a bit of polish then I help, but otherwise I try to stay clear because my advice is not always well recieved.

    I have nothing against casual play at all, otherwise why would I be here? I think Magic has improved dramatically for casual play beginning with Urza`s Saga because prior to that very few cards were intended for multiplayer use and could lead to players being made to feel victims. A key example would be the difference between Stupor and Unnerve, for instance - cards like this made multiplayer Magic more enjoyable when previously I refused to play it. Multiplayer Magic tended to disintegrate into people feeling hard done by and seeking revenge, or people with a deck that could only kill one person and would lose. Fun. Not.

    But I also think that most casual players are bad players. Only the knife of competition (allied to a desire to succeed) can lead you to develop real skill at the game. Whenever I hear somebody say 'My friend would be the best player in the world if he could be bothered playing tournaments' I laugh, because invariably they don`t know how good a good player actually is. I`m good enough to know that I`m NEVER going to be a serious contender, I`m probably the 20th best UK player (at the absolute worst) but I`m never going to get above that. I have untold respect for those better than me, because I know that they are simply capable of doing something I could never do, just as no matter how much I trained I could never beat Michael Johnson over 400m.
  4. Gizmo Composite: 1860

    I probably don`t define most decks on the CPA as 'casual decks' as often they are simply bad decks, as opposed to casual. I`m thinking mainly that a lot of the aggressive decks on the CPA aren`t trying to be fun, they are trying to win but are just happening to be really bad at winning so nobody has noticed that they aren`t that much fun.

    For me a casual deck sets out to abuse a 'poor' card and probably ends up stringing it together with another couple of 'poor cards' on the way. The result is a deck that does something, which interacts, but still isn`t a bad deck.

    If you sit down to say "I want to play with Greater Good"
    Which only an idiot would do :p then you are making a casual deck. But if you sit down to say "I want to kill people with red spells other than those used in most tournament red decks" then you aren`t being casual because a Lava Axe is no more amusing than a Rhystic Lightning.

    [:p --Zadok001]
  5. Griffith_se Queen of the Sub-Optimal

    Yeah, but casual deck sounds better than bad deck. :D

    I build decks I call casual/bad :) because I don't have the good cards.

    Casual=Play with what You got
    Tourny= Spend big, or go home (unless You want to play stampy)

    [Edited by Griffith_se on September 21st, 2000 at 03:49 PM]
  6. dw51688 The Mad Scientist

    DCI might as well ban the whole set, but if they did, I and many wothers would get pissed. BUT that will never happen so I am happily waiting for it to come out. Me and my coffee. AAHHHHH coffee.
  7. Purple_jester New Member

    I agree. For me, casual means: "play with what you have, and have fun while doing it." It's obvious that you're taking the game from a purely professional perspective, Gizmo, which isn't bad. But did you ever stop to consider that many players don't play from your standpoint?

    For example, many players in my country can't afford to buy boxes or shell out for oodles of singles. They simply can't afford it, but they love Magic so much that they'll get what they can, and still have fun playing. Not every casual player can afford to look for 4 Greater Goods. Also the availability of cards here isn't that good. When Exodus first popped out, I had a love affair with Equilibrium when I first saw it, noting how much mischief I could pull off. It took me till forever just to obtain 4 of them, regardless of the fact that they came free in one of the precons. I know you live in a country with a lot of abundance, so you might have a hard time comprehending what I'm saying.

    Also, the decks you find are bad are perhaps meant to be bad. I make "bad" decks not because I'm a bad deck maker, but because I want to have fun with those cards I put in. I've made Phasing-only decks and Elephant decks and Dwarf decks and non-Trix Donate decks (complete with 2 Donate-ready Path of Sorrows) just because I want to enjoy playing those cards. And I also want to see my opponent enjoy playing against those cards. Win or lose. Why else would I take the Tinker mana-engine and combine it with Rocket Launchers, Jester's Caps, Reconstructions and Aladdin's Rings? :D

    Perhaps you've forgotten that. I don't know. You say that most casual players are bad players? Again, you're probably right. But then again, a lot of casual players have fun while being bad. Can you fault them for that? Maybe some players don't want to feel "the knife of competition." I'm kind of wobbly on that fact, because I play Arena Leage, which really isn't a tournament per se, but does have a lot of fun competition. :p

    One point you made will have me agreeing 100%. There are some people out there who don't comprehend that a killer deck for fun isn't within the environment's definition of fun. From a casual perspective, using a killer deck or even a variation thereof in casual play is tantamount to saying, "I'm a jerk who just wants to beat everyone here. Please avoid me." You're right when you say that a Lava Axe is no more amusing than a Rhystic Lightning. Of course, I've built a deck that uses Rhystic Lightning on my own Mogg Maniacs. That way, tapped out or not, the opponent takes damage. Isn't THAT amusing? ;)
  8. Apollo Bird Boy

    Moments ago, I was sitting here, completely astonished. Why? Because I had just read the opening post on this thread. Then I read the posts that followed it. I was amazed. Then, finally, I saw an enlightened post, Gizmo's.

    This set stinks. There was a quote in an old TopDreck (before my runover subscription ran out) saying about Invasion, "this is the best set I've ever playtested." Obviously, this was the first set he'd ever playtested. Or maybe they decided to add 2 to the casting cost of every card in the set since he said that.

    Ademis, Reya and Lotus Guy are grossly overcosted. You want to beat a person who bought a few boxes and now has a deck of Reyas and Lotus Guys? Make a weenie deck, and run him over before he gets halfway to casting these cards.

    DW, why would they ban these cards? They all stink. This isn't balanced, it's under-balanced. It's the antithesis of Saga; there, they were all undercosted, and here, you've got 4/4's for seven mana. Wow, what a gem:rolleyes: By the time you've got seven mana to cast it, what good is one more going to do? And as for Reya, even if you manage to live long enough to get it out, it'll just die a minute later.

    I got about a box worth of Tempest through Destiny, but there hasn't been anything in the last 3 sets worthwhile enough for me to buy more than a few packs. And this is another snoozer.
  9. terzarima New Member

    Guys, guys I didn't mean to start a huge controversy (however entertaining). The cards I used were merely examples, I'm sure that there is an "equal and opposite force" for every deck. And Apollo the two examples are not all of the cards I find powerfull.
  10. Thrash Golem New Member

    I totally agree with you.. Apollo..

    Invasion sucks. Kavu's are a toned down slivers.. none of the cards here allow for any real killer combos..

    Void is ok, the come into play tapped dual lands are ok, the cameos are pretty good, lobotomy is good, i LOVE the new maro sorceror and the Saproling booster.. but thats it.

    and my friend who loves cats likes the 3/3 for 3 and horned cheetah (2/2 spirit linked)

    And, the blue card, return x target permanents to owners hand..

    ack..

    but thats it..
  11. Darsh Corrupt CPA Member

    It's blanced and boring. Zzzzz *yawn* To everyone who likes invasion tell us your favorite cards from it.
  12. sageridder Legendary Cpa Member

  13. Multani Treetrunk Guy

    I think the Invasion everyone thinks about is an illusion.
    People soo desperately want to believe that WOTC actually made a good set. Ya know what? Prophecy was fairly good. Invasion concentrates too much on the late game. Unless your deck has extremely fast mana, you don't need more than 4 big fatties in a deck.
  14. sageridder Legendary Cpa Member

    personally i am an extended player.I like the format,but would like to have the oppertunity to play more sealed luck(local store just dosen't do it anymore).As far as extended goes i think there are some interesting additions.with all the early info though you had to figure people would love it or hate before it hit the shelves.we'll see what people really think after a month or so,I'll reserve judgement till then.Just my oppinion.
  15. Thrash Golem New Member

    Invasion will be nothing more then a casual players/collector's set.. the tournament scene will be very slow and powerful, and can be taken out by topples and lunges.

    I am very very in love with the new thallid guy, 4/7 for 6 that gives all other treefolk and saprolings +1/+1..

    and the blackblade maro sorceror caught my eye..

    this set has no, NO power artifacts. it does have a beefed up raths edge.. but decks that pack raths egde usually arent creature intensive.. so that card wont work.

    these super powerful cards like reya dawnbringer and the win the game spell (forgot what it was called) will only be used by 6 year olds with fat wallets. they will not come anywhere near tournament play.
  16. FoundationOfRancor The Gunslinger

    Casual Play: I have decided I am a "whatever" player. I make decks with cards I like. To me, I jsut like to play> Casual play means that if I accidently tap some lands, i can untap them without taking burn! (to me, that is)

    Invasion:
    Well, I like multicolor, but not this much multicolor. I like the set pretty much overall, except for one thing; There are very few new interesting cards. Just official and non reprints of old cards. The only new mechanics are kicker, pile, and CBC (Cant be countered:0 ).

    I dont like that, I like new and interesting things.

    However, I think the Invasion set could have picked up the pace a little, with a little faster cards and perhaps more creature oriented.

    Anyway, I like the set, its 'ok'. Its playable, and looks fun.
  17. Dune Echo CPA Founder, Idea Man

    After seeing people's reactions here, I'm completely surprised that people are suddenly turning against this set after all the praise it's received so far.

    Personally, I think that R&D are lowering the bar so much because so many of us have complained about Masticores, Cursed Scrolls, and Phyrexian Processors, and these are just three artifacts out of many cards people consider broken!

    Yes, the new cards/creatures don't break the bar at all like the shadow creatures, the old Knights, and Masticore did. But as much as like the old creatures and these are a bit overcosted, R&D is simply responding to our complaints!

    The only problem is, EVERYONE is comparing these cards to old cards. These cards are considered sub-standard to old cards and a lot of the casual player will prefer to play with old cards rather than new cards because they are technically better. And for that, the reputation of these cards will suffer greatly. People, you need to realize that the people that make and playtest this game are comparing cards to other cards that are available in the Standard environment only, and to someone in that role, some of these cards just rock. Look at it from that perspective!

    So, ask yourselves, is Standard worth playing because it's now fair, or is Extended/Vintage better because you can play all your truly broken cards? Which is more fun? Possibly not-interacting with your opponent because of their combo (High Tide anyone? And yes, I know it's been banned to hell!), or actually having a damned good reason to play Chimeric Idols? It all truly comes down to personal preference, true, but I'm looking forward to these because I think the cards are interesting.

    Personally, I think that R&D is reacting to us, and then you complain. COME ON! MAKE UP YOUR MINDS PEOPLE! Do you want fun, creature battles with combos that are strategy or decks where you can just ignore your opponent for the most part?
  18. Ura Feline Lord of the Pit

    replys, replys, replys... :)

    Well, first to Gizmo:
    I agree with part of what you said, but when you go so far as to say that casual players are bad players I was insulted. Most of the people that I play against "casually" have far more talent and are overall better players then almost anyone I played when I was big into tournaments and DCI events. Just because someone isn't as good as you and doesn't rank in the top 20 of their area, or dares to try and use a card that isn't total mainstream does not make them a bad player. Sure tourny play is cutting edge competition, but tourny play also tends to absorb players personalities till they're nothing more than obsessed killing machines. If all you care about is winning, then why not start ambushing opponents in bathrooms and having hired goons break knee caps? (besides the fact that you'd get arrested), because its not fair? or its unethical? or does it just depend on how far people are willing to go with their magic play before they're no longer enjoying themselves. Sure, I've met some just lousy casual players, but I've met just as many if not more tourny players that were equally bad or worse. That, and I've never seen a casual player have a coniption fit, break down crying cause they didn't win a match, or try to threaten me either. I think that how a person not only deals with their cards, but deals with their opponents should be just as important to a players quality. ;)
    but enough of that. :)

    Why the heck is everyone bad mouthing this set all of a sudden? First everyone is raving, now everyone is calling it trash? WTF!
    Everyone demands dual lands return, and they give you come into play tapped multi-color lands with no other draw backs and you complain? shut-up. I mean really, dozens of people demand gold cards back, so they give them to you and now you complain. Why? because they aren't as childish and broken as slivers were (no offence is meant to sliver fans out there btw)? I thought the reprint of Lobotomy was great cause I love that card and use it to very high effectiveness in tournament level decks. I think that new dragon legends are a great idea although they'll likely never see a tournament deck. Some of the other cards are good too, just because they're expensive does not make them bad. The entire environment is slow, deal with it. There are alot of neat effect cards in here that are begging to be busted open. I remember when people said Illusions of Grandure was garbage, and then I remember when people said Donate was garbage, hell, I remember people saying Necropotence was garbage when it came out. But then BOOM! Trix decks showed up and people were screaming for all three of them to be banned and errated.
    Just because there are no more 2rd and 3th turn winning mega combos and game winning lock downs does not make this stuff bad. Theres probably hidden tech all over the place in here that most of you haven't realized yet. So stop your whining till the set is actually played with in the open tourny field for a little while, cause someone somewhere is gonna figure some sort of crushing deck out of it and everyone is gonna cry like babies to ban this and errata that! :mad:
    Some of you who have played long enough may remember a few years back when a 5 color black deck won worlds? When Alliances and mirage block was type 2. Maybe we're just seeing a return of something older that was still just as good and quality in its own environment. Lose the artifact cycle mentality and look at the new stuff with a little more openess, otherwise someone is gonna trix you before you realize it and you'll be screaming for banishments again.

    Is this the CASUAL players alliance, or the whiny tourny wannabes gripe center?
    urusai! :p

    [Edited by Ura on September 22nd, 2000 at 03:05 AM]
  19. lilpinhead Cry Baby CPA Member

    personally i cant wait for this set to come out...i havent really looked at any of the spoilers or sneek peeks cause i actually have a job now so i can buy a box or two and be surprised. i love surprises...and ice cream.
  20. Chaos Turtle Demiurgic CPA Member, Admin Assistant

    I just want to say that I'm still excited about this set.

    It looks like a fun limited set (my preferred format) as well as opening up all sorts of possibilities in the new Standard environment. Even Extended got thrown a couple of nice juicy bones. And what on earth the "casual players" are griping about is beyond me.

    Don't focus on what cards are not as good as what's available now in Standard, as nearly half of those cards are going away in a month. Instead, try to think of ways to use these cards with Masques blocks and 6th ed cards.
    I was under the impression that we were sick of losing to Morphling and Masticore, that we wanted to play with more than one color at a time, that we wanted a new way to win, and that we wanted - above all - great creatures.

    Well, guess what? Our wants are about to become reality.
    I think that this block will prove to be one of the more interesting in the history of Magic.
    It will force players to reconsider the way they think about how the game is played.

    Too much multicolor? I don't think so. It's only too much if it can't be played. But there are so many ways to put together a multicolor deck that there should be no problem at all playing whatever cards you want to play, in whatever combination you want to play them in, without having to fork over big cash for Birds of Paradise, dual land, City of Brass, or any of the other stuff that has traditionally been required to compete this way.
    For limited, one can easily draft (or open in sealed) a three or four colored deck. In NetDrafts the last couple of days, I have even seen four-color decks that use only two basic lands types! I never would have expected it.

    Enough rambling and ranting for now... I'll be back after the pre-release, with some articles (yes, that's plural ;)) for you (as in, sorry to have been away for so long, but I'm back, dammit) to peruse and decks to abuse.

    Happy Invasion!

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