Invasion... too powerfull?

[Gizmo]

I need to cover my ass a little here. yes, I think that most casual players are 'bad players'. But I also thank that 99% of tournament players are 'bad players' and that makes them even worse because they are supposed to be playing for fun! In my last tourney I was playing off for a place in the Top-8 and my opponent was so bad that I didn`t even bother Hammering an Albino Troll when he tapped out to cast it because I knew he`d forget the Echo (he`d already forgotten 3 echos in the match). That`s terrible!
I`ve just got a really high standard of play to which I will start saying you are a good player. And I`ve never seen a tourney player have a fit when they`ve lost, either, not even when they just threw $1,200 dollars away by tapping the wrong land in a GP semifinal.

I think you can write a very good counterpoint article tot he one everybody is whingeing about that slags of casual players. You stereotype tourney players as obsesssive and nasty, which really is not true for the vast majority. Rather, we use our success at tournaments to travel the world with our mates from the tourney scene, drink beer in foreign countries and meet new friends from all over the world. For GP:Manchester my friend and I (who live in manchester) will be host to around a dozen players from Iceland to Japan.

 

[Killer Joe]

I think this set is gonna rock, and I don't have to prove it and I don't need anyone to agree with me. I think Gizmo has a fantasic reputation on this site and has the right to express his own opinion (key word) and shoudn't be flamed for it. Remember, it's all how you look at it. What lens are YOU looking through? Casual lens? Pessimistic lens? Optimistic lens? Pro-Tour lens? What ever lens you're using, that's the opinion you're gonna get. I have a lens for some of you to look through: Your OWN opinion lens! Have enough confidence in yourself to realize that you're smart enough to formulate an intelligent opinion and not just "Jumping on the bandwagon" opinion.
Does Invasion suck? Not to me, but hey, that's just my opinion (key word), and, until otherwise realized, I'm sticking to it!

26 hrs. and 2 min. and counting.......

 

[Gizmo]

Thanks Yellowjacket,
Didn`t I only say that it was bad for tourney players?
I`m in no position to state whether it`s good for casual players or not so I didn`t say that, although that it has recieved such mixed opinions from everybody else I think speaks volumes. But I can see things from a casual player`s perspective and aren`t you all a leeeeetle bit fed up with the number of reprints and renames in the set? If you aren`t adhering to T-II restrictions then half this set doesn`t even exist because you`ve already got them.

 

[Mundungu]

I think that Invasion will be a financial success for Wotc.
I dont know for you guys but I feel like spending more on Invasion than MM for example.

A couple of items will make it worth it, eg the new dual lands, gold cards, big creatures. Look at the success of the avatars (starting with serra)

I also think that this set will be attractive to new players or converted ones (pokemon ne1 one ?).
----
I even wondered if the name Kavu was not to attract the attention of our once to be pokegymamsterofthetinymonsterswithunprononceablenames.
----
Maybe not the Great set that tourney player where waiting for but it sure seems much more attractive to me than Masque block.

Anyhow novelty always brings controversy

0,02$

 

[Ura]

Looks like I need to cover my butt a bit here too.

It wasn't my intention to stereotype all tourny players to look like obsessed nasties, though when I read back I probably did, for that I apologize up front. (note to self: Stop writing on the fly)
I have met some great tourny players when I was playing in GP:Seattle and GP:Vancouver a couple years ago and had a great time with some of them because they did have the attitude that makes them true champions of the game. I've just had some bad experiences with players too and met some people that I just had to shake my head at wondering why they hadn't been kicked out for bad sportsmanship.

I also didn't mean or intend to flame Gizmo himself. He is one of the few DCI/tourny players I do have alot of respect for and actually value his opinion most of the time. If all tournament players had the class that Giz has then I think alot more people would give tournament play a second look.
So hey, if you ever happen to pass through my neck of the woods, stop by and I'll buy ya a couple of brews, I know a great little pub up the street from my shop.
Peace!

Otherwise I still think Invasion will be a good set, it reminds me ALOT of Legends, (big, powerful, kinda slow, only missing a cheap ripoff of mirror universe), so maybe I'm just strolling down memory lane a bit with it (note to self: get kobold deck going again). I do think that there are a bunch of new cards here that will see the upper levels of tournament play as well. As for casual players, this set is a jamboree of technicolor rainbow explosion, its got big, bizar, and amusing, some of the cards in here just scream, "I'm huge!! Play with me!".
As for the reprints? Bahh, I usually ignore them anyways. I do adhear to the banned and restricted lists because I run tournaments at my shop all the time and you never know when I may feel like stumbling into a GP event with a super rogue deck to see how many butts I can kick with it.
Except for that new re-named reprint of vampire bats, those things are annoying and they bite, I don't have to many problems with reprints. Actually, Stun is kind lame too, oh well. (note to self: find a way to break stun in spare time)

I think that covers everything...*thinks really hard*...eh, I'm sure someone will mention it if I typed something else before my brain caught up. (note to self: do laundry)

cheers!

 

[theorgg]

You challange me to name cards from memory that I like?
Let's go!

First up: A cheaper spore cloud that doesn't tap the blockers. 'Nuff said. can you fog'ive me?

Second up: A Barbarian Elf. just think about that for a minute.
and a Knight Elf. think about that one.

"I am Elvinere, Pinacle of Elven Purity." said the elf in armour.
"What's that at your hip?" asked the person in the shadow.
<drawing sword>"This is my blade, one made from the finest elvish steel and tempered by the thrull blacksmith masters at the new ebon keep in sarpadia. I have traveled...Good LAWD!!"
The musclular, near-unshod, fetid elf steps out of the shadows with his seven foot brodsword. "I'm Tyrg. I love killing serphents with this sword made of the tooth of a sengovian leviathan summoned by some idiot mage. Wanna go play 'kick the merfolk'?"

C'mon, isn't the concept just funny? I can't wait to see the art!

And the gold stuff! O'Hell yess!!! Give it to me, WOTC! Uh-huh! uh huh!

and there's even an elvish leader to lead 'em. what about the merfolk zombie? isn't that funny?

Or the "divvy" cards! wooo-hooo!
and the blue re-target spell! awesome unglued action!

My only beef is the amazingly high amouts of complete re-treads and reprints. I really don't WANT eight stronghold taskmasters in my deck...

just my thoughts.

sic semper,

 

[Purple_jester]

Some of these "casual" players complaining about this set will be complaining about something else very, very soon. Ura hit the nail right on the head. Once tournaments start coming out and people with REAL creativity make the next great deck concept, the whole Invasion thing will explode.

I'm telling you, this is a fun set. I can think of very few cards which are worth garbage. Just about everything is playable, tournament or not. hey, I just thought of another funny thing. These "casual" players complaining about the worth of Invasion in tournament play will be FORCED to use the cards anyway! Their favorite abused Artifact Block is going away from Standard... far, far away to the realms of Extended... Bwahahahaha!

Do you miss your Gaea's Cradles? Your Albino Trolls? You precious widdle Avalanche Riders? Your cute'n'cuddly Voltaic Keys and Thran Dynamos? Heehee... that's what happens when a killer set like that pops out. Everything is "weak" by comparison.

Think about it this way. How would you feel, tournament-wise, if every set had a dozen or so creatures on the same abuse level as the Masticore and Morphling? How would you feel if every set had a land that produced several mana at once? How would you feel if every set had a bunch of mana-accelerating artifacts that allowed you to produce 10+ mana on the SECOND turn?

The way I see it, these "casual" players are going to be complaining about this and that till the day they die, so I'll ignore these complaints for the most part. I like Invasion because it looks fair so far, and it will blend well with Masques Block. It's slightly faster than Masques block, I would think, and so much more versatile. We've got gold back people. Be happy!

Okay, so there are a few crappy pieces of reprinted cardboard, but hey, Lobotomy and Harrow are reprints and I'm not complaining about those.

Gizmo, no offense intended with my earlier comments. Just wanted to voice out my opinion. I've also seen tournmanents with bad players. You would think that when you had a game-locking creature like Masticore in play, you'd REMEMBER to discard a card during upkeep.

[Edited by Purple_jester on September 23rd, 2000 at 12:41 PM]

 

[dw51688]

RIGHT ON PURPLE!

 

[The Magic Jackal]

Yeah, MJ finally finds time to get on the boards!

I must totally agree with Gizmo. I was totally physced over invasion, then I saw the spoiler. I then got sad The work Fallen empires comes to mind.... No joke.

My friends and I have talked it over. About half of them agree with me, the other half think it's half decent. I do see little cards that will see a lot of constructed play in the set. Dual lands mainly, just to make two color decks smoother. here's a tip for building new type two deck types:

Build it as if Invasion didn't exist. Then go back and take a look at the invasion cards. If you see something that would work good in the deck, see if there isn't anything that doesn't already work better (chances are that something does work better).

Here's a little insight as to what I think are the best invasion cards for constructed play.

White: Best- Fight or flight.
Your opponent can only attack with half of his creatures. What's not good about that?
Others: Atalya, master decoy (delenish trapper), the walking disenchant dude, death or glory
Overrated: I haven't heard of any white cards recieving a lot of talk.

Blue: Best: fact or fiction.
should be good in all mono blue decks. Only problem is that blue has NO good creatures.
Others: Wash out, distorting wake (sigh)
Overrated: Teferi's response (do you actually think you can stop port?)

black: Best: Twilight's call. (Here's the recursion, now all you need is a way to dump creatures into your graveyard.
Others: Phyrexian delver, Mouning (not that bad, some timing tricks can be pulled off with this guy), Soul burn, Tsabo's decree (anti rebel)
Overrated: Do or die (there's just better ways to kill creatues)

Red(ROFLMAO): Best: Skizzik (but I'd rather have an overseer)
Others: turf wound (could be good in ponza for extra card advantage, but still doesn't kill a land)
Overrated: Bend or break (does not one remember tectonic break?), urza's rage (Hammer anyone?), obliterate (why?)

Green (best color in set): best: Quiron Sentinel (good creature for two mana, plus it replenish one mana. Basically a 2/1 or one mana. Excellent for stompy. The sleeper card of the set if it's not realized at first.)
others: Kavu titan, utopia tree (bird is better, lanowar elite, (forget the kicker, it sucks, a 1/1 trample for 1 is good) Blurred mongoose, elvish champion

Gold: Best: Overabundance (extreme potenial. Pair it up with the samite legend, and you get some exteme life gaining. Or fire up a big )
others: charging troll, lobotamy, noble panther, blazing specter
overrated: teferi's moat, void, dragon legends

artifact/land: best: dual lands
others: dual artifacts (better than ramos parts), tsabo's web
overratted: none

Well, there ya have it.

 

[Apollo]

Well, I see a lot of ill-conceived semi-flames on here. PJ, I'm a bit surprised, because that's the closest I've seen you come to flaming someone.

People, we aren't compaining about the lack of broken cards like Masticore and Morphling. We don't want that. What we are complaining about is the lack of good cards. I'm talking cards like Spike Weaver, Spike Feeder, Slivers (whoever said they were broken... sheesh), Ironclaw Orcs, Serra (OK, had to stick that in there), Phyrexian Plaguelord, etc. R&D is so afraid of creating another Saga that they don't print anything good. There should be cool, powerful cards (Browse, Living Death) in every set, yet the closest we come in here is that stupid 5-color card and Obliterate, which is just another Jokulhaups, but grossly overcosted.

PJ, I'm not even a T2 player. I play extended and type 1. So I'm not lamenting the loss of Saga. I'm lamenting the fact that only a few of the new cards (not Lobotomy, the Duals, etc.) will see play in any of my decks. I initially responded to FoR's comment that there were a lot of reprints by saying that all standalones have a bunch. But that was before I read the spoiler. There are virtually no good new ideas (sideways cards... sigh). This is the closest I have ever come to feeling that they have run out of ideas for Magic.

They seem to want to turn Magic into little kid Magic. Play a huge creature and hit them until they play a bigger one. Then you play a bigger one. No strategy at all. Reminds me of another game...

Well, not really. At least Magic still has spells. But they are all of the HUGE category, too. Games where nothing happen until the 5th turn when the 4/4's start coming out! Woo-hoo! And then the occsional 12 mana spell! Do these sound good to you? They sound incredibly boring to me.

People are saying this will be a good, skill-testing format. Well, I remember Gizmo once saying that Masques was a terrible format because there were no good cards. It doesn't test deck-building skills at all, because there are no good decks to build. There are no right choices.

Apollo

 

[Gizmo]

My latest Starcity article gives my thoughts on Invasion. It won`t go up until Monday I think, but I`ve submitted a copy to the CPA front page as well so keep an eye open for it. I was glad to see I am not alone, Zvi Mowshowitz began to look at blue on Mindripper, and he hates every card. Pretty much every card he says (God, I hope T-II isn`t so bad you would actually play this!).

I`ve only just seen the Split Cards, though. They look good (although they *look* terrible).

 

[The Magic Jackal]

I only saw two good split cards. The r/b one, and the g/r one. R/b could be used in b/r ponza, and the g/r one is just another shock. Twelve in all, eh? I'd stil rather have my incinerate. Red still has trouble killing a river boa, it's rather funny.

 

[Gizmo]

Scorching Lava kills Boas.
I think I might be playing RDW in Invasion too!

4 Shock
4 Seal Of Fire
4 Scorching Lava
3 Rhystic Lightning
3 Hammer Of Bogardan
3 Mages Contest
4 Pillage
2 Tectonic Break

2 Kris Mage
4 Rogue Kava
4 Skizzik

4 Rishadan Port
19 Mountain

Looks really good to me.

 

[Namielus]

Geez, I walk back in here after 2 days and everyone want to kill invasion. Take a breather guys. Invasion might be to powerful, but it isn't so powerful that your couldn't just have removal for those threats. Yea sure blue control can't counter urza rage, but it sure can misderect it or defletion it. I think that invasion will be giving all those MBC6 decks a good endgame, or give them something to fear. Invasion might be a little too powerful, but that is only if you give a player 9 turns to play land for these power cards. I know most of my tournement quality decks gs at turns 5-7 that is right before I have deal with a huge avatar of woe or a plague wind.

 

[Purple_jester]

Little kid Magic, huh? Well, I've looked at the spoiller very carefully, and I did see very few really good creatures that will replace anything in my decks. Blue seems to have gotten slighted on the creatures most heavily, followed by black. At least these gold cards for the most part are more playable than the gold cards of the past. Most of all I'm glad they reprinted Lobotomy.

Most of the really good creatures have casting costs of at least 4 (ex. Skizzik, Jade Leech, Burning Specter). I guess R&D really IS afraid of creating another Saga. I don't know which is worse, them making another Saga by up-sizing the cards, or having them create another mistake like Saga. I'll let you professionals decide that.

Hmm... How hard would it be to create a set on the par of Tempest Block without going into the extremes of Saga? <shrugs> Maybe they ARE running out of ideas. If you ask me, they should really think about taking back that "new mechanic in the block it belongs to" policy. If there is a good mechanic, why not repeat it with other sets? Why reserve those mechanics which started the game? I mean, they DID remove Banding and Rampage already from the basic set and the rulebook (I think, did they?).

So, why not bring back some of those mechanics which we all loved? Y'know, like Shadow and Echo. Or even Fading, a severely underused mechanic which didn't even make it into Prophecy. I can think of others. The blue untap lands spells. Better rhystic abilities. Heck, even more ACC spells. And am I the only who wants Flankers in 7th ed?

Apollo, again, apologies for any perceived offense. I'm pretty glad, actually. Hey, you like Ironclaw Orcs, too? And here I thought that I was the only one who found them playable. Err... Serra? Didn't know she was a card... I've been looking for a creature like the Plaguelord or even Mogg Fantastic (aka. Mogg Fanatic). Didn't find any. So, few of the new cards are also making their way into my decks (which are mostly technically Type 1). Lesee... Lobotomy, Recoil, Duals, Skizzik, Tsabo's Web, Cameos, Wash Out, to name a few. About the same percentage of cards which I took from Masques Block actually. Still, I do think that this Block will be better than Masques.

 

[Y The Alien]

I have also missed the genuinely great cards that need to show up. Well, Wash Out is incredible, and Restock is broken in Type 1, and I can get a Lobotomy, plus the new duals, and the dual mimic artfacts, which ought to show in some decks, oh, and Phyrexian Lens (Shades of Belbe?), the Kav Titan, Sterling Grove.....

Wait a minute. I LOVE Invasion! Sterling Grove ought to fins it's way into T1.X ClusterBomb and PandeBurst, at least in sboard. Restock is T1 caiber. Wash Out is a new blue staple. Phyrexian Lens is on par with City of Brass, but it won't stab you in the back if your opponent plays Port. Tsabo's Web hoses Port, Bowl, Edge, Haven, etc. Hanna and Sisay have big potential. The W/B hosers are excellent. There's a red COUNTERSPELL! Long live Invasion!

 

[Ura]

After carefully reading through the spoiler again, I'd have to say there are about 95 (standard) tournament playable cards in this set, some lesser then others. But thats about 27% of the set which isn't all that bad.
Its just gonna be very alliances/mirage block'esque for tournament play.
I can see a few really nice 2 and 3 color decks popping out of here, so don't go counting your chickens before the eggs hatch. I think alot of people will be surprised by the tourney effectiveness of this set. At least in standard. Extended and classic have much faster and more powerful environments so whats useful will be greatly differing and probably less.

 

[Thallid Ice Cream Man]

By the way, some cards that you think suck, like, for example, Slimy Kavu or Dream Thush, maybe even some that are basically reprints, might just be much better in this format than their earlier counterparts, or, if they are new, than you thought.

(Before you keep reading, let me just say that I fall under Gizmo's category of casual players that suck.)

Example: This happened at the Invasion prerelease (considering that I am home now and it's about 6 p.m. here, you can see how well I did...) I have two Slimy Kavus (I got three ) in play. My opponent has a Timber Farm (the 3-color Havenwood Battleground thingie), two mountains, two swamps. I have a couple more small creatures out.

Every turn during my opponent's upkeep, I turn his Timber Farm and one Mountain into Swamps (hence my point). It goes on like this for about four turns until I forget to tap the Kavus during my upkeep. He draws a land. He plays Darigaaz, the Igniter. I concede.

My point is, in this environment, cards like Orcish Farmer i.e. Slimy Kavu can be much better than was thought before. Think about the present environment, then judge the cards.

 

[The Magic Jackal]

I found that about 1/8 cards were playable, 17.5%. That's really crappy. W/G seems to be a strong deck. Charging troll/noble panther are great cards. Backed up with waves and blastos, I think the deck can pack quite a punch.

Invasion too powerful? HA! more like invasion too crappy.

 

[Dune Echo]

Just as a side note, I do agree with most people here, I really don't like the amount of reprints, or at least not powerful reprints. As much as I really do like this set, there are a few other gripes that if R&D is reading this, I wish they would take into consideration for the future.

If you're going to make a card, please keep it on par with existing cards in the current Type 2 enviroment. Example: Llanowar Cavalry -> Strictly worse than Standing Troops. Why can't they just give it some other great ability instead? This card will just not be played when white has such a better creature. It's chaff. Please, please, please, please don't do this. I really don't want this card and have no use for it in any enviroment other than limited. I know they know this and they need to stop it.

But other than that, this set is very interesting and I feel the ideas are fairly fresh (split cards, quite unique and will be interesting to see where the next two sets take this). I just want to see more ideas and maybe more giving into the player's demands (Serra Angel, Lightning Bolt anybody?)