In response to you casting Mirrodin, I'll play....

[Nightstalkers]

Casting, say, Erhnam Djinn on Turn 1 because of your Lotus is good fun, but it means something like Terror will nullify not one but TWO of your cards, (The Djinn AND the lotus you used to cast it).

Yet another player who uses cards count economy while building a deck...


The love is in the room again

 

[train]

It's all about the utility!!!...

 

[EricBess]

Originally posted by Rooser
To answer the second question, I think the drawback will probably be that it will actually have a casting cost. If it was exactly Black Lotus, except it cost 3 colorless to put down, it would be balanced, but useful as a sort of Mana Storage Unit.

How would that be balanced? Grim Monolith only produced colorless mana and cost 1 less than this to put in play with a huge disadvantage of how to untap this and it was played extensively even before Voltaic Key.

If I'm not mistaken, WOTC has a policy against printing any artifact that can produce mana and has a 0 casting cost, so not even Lotus Petal should come back. Then again, WOTC does notoriously contradict itself. Still, my guess at to its drawback would be that it costs mana to put down.

Actually, they have a policy of being very careful about any one card that can generate more than a single point of mana. Gaea's Cradle and Tolarian Academy were more powerful than they expected (I'm not sure why, it was obvious to quite a few people before decks started showing up). Anything that produces more mana is considered "dangerous territory". Obviously, they feel it can be done and done well, but carefully and primarily in green.

So, if the lotus cost 2G, then maybe, but not 3 colorless.

The rumor I've heard about the Moxen is that the new Moxen will be just like the old (0 cc - tap for 1 mana of the given color), but will have the same drawback as Rock Jockey. In other words, you cannot play a Moxen if you have played a land this turn and the turn you play a Moxen, you cannot play a land.

This still has potential for abuse, but is nowhere near as dangerous. For the most part, it is a land, but if you draw 3 in your opening hand, you just play all 3 first turn and don't worry about a land. I suspect we will see quite a few decks running upwards of 20 of them (4 of each color) with only a minor color commitment.

As far as Lotus goes, I hope that they don't think that dropping that same restriction on Lotus will balance it.

 

[train]

The rumor I've heard about the Moxen is that the new Moxen will be just like the old (0 cc - tap for 1 mana of the given color), but will have the same drawback as Rock Jockey. In other words, you cannot play a Moxen if you have played a land this turn and the turn you play a Moxen, you cannot play a land.

So these are already on the banned/restricted list in type 1 if this is the case...

I really thought WoTC would walk away from something that would certainly be on the banned/restricted list...

 

[Ferret]

Originally posted by EricBess
This still has potential for abuse, but is nowhere near as dangerous. For the most part, it is a land, but if you draw 3 in your opening hand, you just play all 3 first turn and don't worry about a land. I suspect we will see quite a few decks running upwards of 20 of them (4 of each color) with only a minor color commitment.

As far as Lotus goes, I hope that they don't think that dropping that same restriction on Lotus will balance it.

There could be an easy sollution to this: reprint cards like Crumble, Seeds of Innocence, "Mox Monkey" that could get rid of them efficiently...

-Ferret

"Although, after Lotus Petal and Mox Diamond you'd think they'd learn"

 

[train]

I think they've learned... I also think they've seen the trouble a lot of people go through to buy expensive moxen...

So why not hand moxen to the population?!...

But if they aren't banned/restricted, then you have 25 of these, 5 moxen, and a lotus all in one deck - and don't need any land...

with card drawers, and cards like hurkyl's recall - this is definitely a first turn whoopin!...

That's why I picture these on the banned/restricted list... soon!... if they come to fruition!...

 

[Rooser]

I saw the Jockey Moxes on somebody's spoiler page too, but I'm guessing it's a lie. Not that I would be shocked to see it actually happen...

I'm just hoping the new dual lands do what the spoilers say they do. Obliterategg here I come!

 

[Thallid Ice Cream Man]

Maybe if you put a little 1 on there those moxen will be OK.

Was that on an English spoiler page?

 

[Spiderman]

Trying to go in order...

First, while some cards aimed at Type 1 are welcome, I agree in that I don't think it will help players to that format unless they build a deck by themselves all by their lonesome. Usually you're still going to need cards from older sets.

Second, I agree that Lotus Mox doesn't belong in every deck but it almost never hurts to have it. I mean, three mana for free? Surely your deck can think of something to do with that... the only kind of deck I can think of that may not use it is Sligh or Stompy, but with it you'd still be able to get out more creatures for the beatdown, which is what those decks do anyway.

Third, I think WOTC cares a bit more about the Standard Banned/Restricted List than Type 1, at least in this case. For a card to be used in Type 1 would mean it's pretty powerful to begin with, and any mana producers are suspect to being abused in Type 1 It probably doesn't matter too much (at least at first) in Standard (especially with the Rock Jockey-like restriction).

Anyway, lots of speculation... that's the exciting thing about Magic

 

[train]

It probably doesn't matter too much (at least at first) in Standard (especially with the Rock Jockey-like restriction).

After calming down... here are my thoughts on this issue:

in standard - run maybe 10 lands and all 20 of these... I doubt there would be any problem with mana issues...

heck - you could drop an avg of 4-5 between the first 2 turns and already be at the mana advantage in a match... 8 cc spells could be done on turn 3 easily...

and it only gets worse as you move to other formats...

The only format these do not break is limited - whether it be draft or sealed...

Used to you could drop a lotus, 5 moxes, a library of alexandria and then ancestral, wheel etc...

Now - after the wheel - drop more mana producers for more spells, to draw more, to drop more, and it goes on and on and on...

 

[Ferret]

Originally posted by Spiderman
Second, I agree that Lotus Mox doesn't belong in every deck but it almost never hurts to have it. I mean, three mana for free? Surely your deck can think of something to do with that... the only kind of deck I can think of that may not use it is Sligh or Stompy, but with it you'd still be able to get out more creatures for the beatdown, which is what those decks do anyway.

I agree. Back, when I had my Lotus it was great to get it in my opening draw. I could do wonders w/ my first turn. Later in the game when I had plenty of mana and was looking for creatures, enchantments, instants, etc drawing it was annoying. It was just taking up space in the deck. The same can go w/ other "accelerators" (Rampant Growth, Exlosive Vegetation, et al).

A solid deck shouldn't have to rely on accelerators - unless, it's a combo deck and you want to get the combo out as soon as possible...

-Ferret

"Of course, most combo players should be shot "

 

[NorrYtt]

What are you all babbling about? The new Lotus in Mirrodin?

*********************************
Gilded Lotus 5
Artifact - Rare

Tap: Add 3 mana of any one color to your mana pool.

**********************************

Pleasantly costed along the lines of Thran Dynamo.

 

[Spiderman]

A solid deck shouldn't have to rely on accelerators - unless, it's a combo deck and you want to get the combo out as soon as possible...

The thing about accelerators is that they speed up your deck and allow you to do things faster than your opponent. It's all about breaking the one land/one mana per turn. And if you pair that with card-drawing to offset the "temporary" disadvantage that the non-permanent accelerators give you, then your deck is pretty "solid".

 

[train]

Pleasantly costed along the lines of Thran Dynamo.

But Thran Dynamo didn't have the acceleration also provided by the new moxen...

This 2 format may be faster than Saga...

I'm going to love it - but it's going to be banned/restricted shortly...

seriously...

 

[Ferret]

Originally posted by train
But Thran Dynamo didn't have the acceleration also provided by the new moxen...
This 2 format may be faster than Saga...
I'm going to love it - but it's going to be banned/restricted shortly...
seriously...

It woudn't surprise me if it didn't turn into a "banned/restricted-before-published" card. It's happened before. I would like to say I'm going to score a bunch of packs to see what I'll get, but in November I'm going to be away from MTG (as well as MTGO) for a few months so I might wait until later and score a few cards from its first expansion (Tomato?) at the same time...

-Ferret

"It worked for Onslaught..."

 

[Spiderman]

My prediction is that it won't be banned/retsricted before release (which is only in a couple more weeks), but will be watched closely to see if it can still be broken and the impact it might have on decks in the next world-class tourney.

 

[train]

but will be watched closely to see if it can still be broken and the impact it might have on decks in the next world-class tourney

Actually - they'll watch the results from the states tourneys coming up in October/November... so it won't be too far gone before they see what these things can do...

In all honesty - is there anyone here that wouldn't run multiples of these in decks...

They're better than Lotus Petal, and until it was restricted - I ran four of those in my decks...

Now multiply that by the 2-3 colors someone may be playing... now there's 12 of these in a deck... sure to have at least 1 opening hand(if shuffling worked right...)

Why not run the others so that a 3rd of your deck is these things - then run draw machines(Blue!!!...) and lay more down first turn...

the potential is there...

Either they have more restrictions than we think - or this is going to be a very fast block...

 

[Troll]

How can you guys call it FAST when it costs 5 to cast and only makes 3?

 

[train]

because you can easily drop it first or second turn...


Edit - easily droppable in extended or any older format...

also doable in type 2... it's real limitations will be in limited...

 

[Spiderman]

It's with the addition of those pseudo-Moxs also in the set that supposedly have the Rock Jockey restriction that would help get it out fast...