I...hate...Eternal Witness

Discussion in 'General CPA Stuff' started by DÛke, Jan 28, 2005.

  1. DÛke Memento Mori

    I don't think I can spew enough hatred against this creature.

    Eternal Witness (1GG)
    Creature - Human Shaman
    When Eternal Witness comes into play, you may return target card in your graveyard to your hand.

    In other words, totally out of control. I have played against decks that would totally sieze to function should this card be removed from their grasp. The two most notable decks were G/U Plow Under (semi-LD) deck and a G/B Kokusho (semi-control) deck.

    The problem with this is that it is a creature. That meaning it can be abused more easily than, say, if it was any other type of card. Surely enough, it is just as easily taken care of, though that is besides the point seeing that all decks I have played against that pack the Witness also pack some ways to either protect her (i.e., Crystal Shard, Echoing Truth) or to revive her (i.e. Revive, Skeleton Shard, Soulless Revival). Case in point: it gets annoying that my opponent can gain advantage using just one card that also happens to be not a too-bad of an attacker or a blocker.

    Even its cost pumped to 2GG while decreasing its stats to 1/1, it would see play just because it can give you back anything you have already used or anything that you've lost due to any circumstances and still being able to function as a chump blocker, which in some cases (i.e. Revive, Zombify) is actually desirable.

    The card is slightly overpowered. And I hate it.

    Agree? disagree? hate? flames?
  2. Reverend Love New Member

    She and Welder see so much f'n play here I've actually designed a Planar Void deck to hate the multiplayer metagame.

    I think it's a powerful recursion ability we haven't been witness to since the end of Revised and Regrowth's removal from the main set. Fighting multiple Eternal Witnesses gives the same feeling like fighting through a Blue player's fistfull of counters.

    But as for hating her...naaa.
  3. Istanbul Sucker MCs call me sire.

    I hate to nitpick, but Skeleton Shard wouldn't bring back an Eternal Witness. It only works on artifact creatures.

    That being said, it IS fairly obnoxious. Still, there are ways around it...Reciprocate it when it attacks, Stifle/counter whatever is used to protect it, play Rag Dealer (did I just say that?) for a fun little Utility vs. Utility matchup...Cranial Extraction, anyone?
  4. Notepad Seffy Sefro

    Ah, Engineered Plague naming humans. How wonderful that is. *sigh* Times were when it needed to be set to elves. Gee, how times have changed. :D

    If the slut would take a bath, she might be kinda hot.
  5. TheCasualOblivion 10 year Veteran Newbie

    There are two solutions to your problem:

    1. Build a better deck. If you keep getting beat by Eternal Witness, your deck sucks and you need to build better decks. How useful a card is doesn't mean anything if your deck is good and you beat them senseless.

    2. Use Eternal Witness. If its such a good card, go get yourself some and use em!

    Saying X card is broken and I hate it is lazy.
  6. Notepad Seffy Sefro

    Island is so oink and broken and I hate it. Only oinks play with that thing because it senses your oink aura powers to work well.

    If you lose to Island you suck, so says TCO. Play around Island, he says. But how do you beat oinks? They have so much style and pizaz!


    Anybody else hate oink Island, too?

    sorry, I just had to do this...
  7. TheCasualOblivion 10 year Veteran Newbie

    I play Islands too because I'm a Republican!
  8. Notepad Seffy Sefro

    Why, you self-loathing little snake-in-the-grass Island player!

    I'll set my Engineered Plague to Human AND Republican next time. I'll get you next time, Gadget, NEXT TIME!

    Please agree with me, Mad Cat...

    (Okay, honestly. The little human shaman is a real pain in the bunyons because she reanimates things. Not overpowerful, but just annoying enough to make you want to quote old cartoon lines to your opponent to coax them into conceding. You know, so you can have some quality time alone with Eternal Witness...)
  9. DÛke Memento Mori

    Where did I say I keep getting beat by Eternal Witness? I've gotten beaten by a deck that used her about 3 or 4 times, against at least 50 decks that included the filthy Witness. What you naturally fail to understand is that just because I can and have beaten the little tramp does not mean that she's not annoying, or that she's a weakling. I had to face her, beat the living Green out of her, and take my victory and rub it in my opponent's face. That said, the card is too powerful for my tastes. And I've played against all kinds of so-called powerful cards, in the Standard environment anyway...none of which spawned the sudden hatred that the Witness has. So before telling me to build a "better" deck, maybe you should question your analytical skills because this being the second conversation I have with you, I must say, you leave much to be desired in terms of...substance.
    Is that what you do? whenever you think a card is good you get yourself some and "use em!"? I guess I shouldn't be so surprised. Tell me, I'm curious, do you happen to copy online decks and call them your own just because you may think they're "that powerful"? Just wondering.
    What's even more lazy is not being able to work a rusting brain long enough to understand the difference between hating a card because someone lost their dignity to it, and hating a card because it is essentially rather powerful, even on its own. Better yet, what's even more lazy is advising someone in a Casual Players forum to use "powerful" cards just because they're powerful.

    Different thread, and yet you're still not making much sense to my ears.

    As for Eternal Witness - I don't think she's broken at all. When I look at a potentially powerful card, the first thing I do is observe whether its playability would be thwarted by increasing the mana cost. In the case of Eternal Witness, as I said, she would still be played at 2GG. That is a bad sign in itself. Another bad sign: that the card is too good on its own. She doesn't require much, really. If she comes into play, you could return a card - any card. That single use is a pain, not because of the ability alone, but because of how cheap it is, and additionally, because they also get a 2/1 creature with it. I just don't like her...at all...
  10. Istanbul Sucker MCs call me sire.

    Duke - To be fair, every Standard environment has had a couple of cards that made me cringe. I hate Lin-Sivvi. I hate Blastoderm. I hate Chimeric Idol. I hate Psychatog. I hate Circular Logic. I hate Mirari's Wake. I hate Goblin Piledriver and...uh, well, the entire Legions set, but for different reasons...

    I'm not saying that your view isn't legitimate - it is, Eternal Witness is sort of like Cranial Plating in that it's riding the razor's edge of brokenness and not QUITE falling off. I guess what I'm saying is that you shouldn't be *surprised*...lots of sets have cards like that.

    (Although, come to think of it, both of those razor's edge cards are Fifth Dawn. Sorta makes me wonder...hmm.)
  11. Limited Yes, but we won't care

    I always loved scrivener and anarchist.. 5cc for a 2/2 that returns a specific card; you really had to think about how your deck would unfold in order to determine if playing your townsfolk would inprove your deck.
    Then came the Witness. No thinking whatsoever. A 2/1 for 3 (which is not too shabby) a return any card. This card is great in almost any green deck and just no fun! NO FUN!

    Thanks for letting me vent my anger
    (*palming a eradicate and two swamps during every game*)
  12. Notepad Seffy Sefro

    Considering that for the longest time, the closest comparable thing has been:

    Elvish Cache, a four-mana sorcery that does the same thing, sans filthie hottie (is she hot? kinda dirty...hmm, maybe she's a crackhead...but a possibly fine one...) So, they make it cost less mana and the drawback they so fittingly think makes up for costing less mana is...putting a 2/1 critter on board? Whah!?!? :eek:

    That's like saying "Yeah, well, Inspiration is kind of unliked. So, we'll make a new one that costs 2U instead and just slaps a 1/1 flier on the table, too. Yeah, that's a good drawback for being cheaper!"

    *Nods head* Riiiiiight.

    Yeah, Elvish Cache is really bad when you think about it. Regrowth isn't really *that* bad. But hell, it should cost 1GG for a revive any card. Not 1GG for revival AND a critter. Geesh!

  13. Reverend Love New Member

    Auriok Champion is hotter. If I were to hump a magic chick...it'd probably be this one.....just in case any of you were wondering.
  14. jorael Craptacular!

    Eternal witness... a chase uncommon to be sure.

    I like to play with the card because it is good enough to fuel some weird combo. I played a MD5 sunburst deck and she made it viable by returning land searching, fireball or a creature like etched oracle.

    I have played it with crystal shard and the most anoying part is that every combo piece can be recursed. It makes a deck highly resistant and almost unstoppable. I can image the frustration from other players in such situations.

    That said, I don't feel dirty when playing with the card, as I do with Skullclamp.
  15. Ferret CPA Founder, Slacker

    I've seen Eternal Witness abused so often. When I was on MTGO I used to play in the Emperor format. I stopped after a while because 1) I was joing in the army and it's hard to play Magic in boot camp and 2) the decks were all getting pretty redundant. Even my highly succesful deck was being copied like crazy.

    When I came back last fall, I saw that the cards were new, but the concept remained the same:

    1. Flanks enchant the Emp's forests.
    2. Emp casts New Frontiers
    3. Emp casts Weird Harvest
    4. Emp casts Hunted Wumpus.

    However, most people were using beef cards like the "Keepers" and that Darksteel golem. All of these still fell pretty easily to my Beast deck (even though, I had to remove Aether Charge because it was considered "direct" damage).

    What started to get on my nerves was the inclusion of Eternal Witness which added a new bit of annoyance:

    4. Emp casts Hunted Wumpus
    5. Flank gets to play EW for free and Hunted Wumpus goes back to Emp's hand
    4. Emp casts Hunted Wumpus.
    5. Later. Rinse. Repeat.

    It would take hours for a turn to go off and then the next Flanker would cast that new version of Relentless Assault (that everyone yelled at me for not having) and the game would be over.

    I got bored w/ it and for the second time in my life I uninstalled MTGO and decided to wait another year to come back...


    "I'll see how things pan out when I get home from Iraq..."
  16. DÛke Memento Mori

    I understand. Hey, my favorite environment is the Standard environment. I've faced all kinds of decks...including Raffinity. And when I walked away from such battles, whether I had lost or won, I usually just shake it off because the opposing decks usually had beat me using plenty of cards, not 2 or 3 cards, such as the case of the Witness.
    And you know what? I've faced Cranial Plating - it didn't bother me. Cranial Extraction, though...now I hate that card so much, but hey, at least it requires some thought to play. Actually I've faced G/B decks with Cranial Extraction and the Witness. You can guess how jaw-dropping such an event is. See, the Extraction is a great, great card - too powerful, but...the Witness...she's like the tramp behind every great man, or every great card, in this case.
  17. TheCasualOblivion 10 year Veteran Newbie

    I actually admit there have been a few cards I've felt this way about. Generally they are the cards that cause a huge frenzy, everybody asking for them everybody wanting them. And yet, thes cards have absolutely no business whatsover in an average casual(newbie) deck just to throw around. I can think of:

    Urza's Rage
    Cursed Scroll
    Arcbound Ravager

    Just a combination of the frenzy involved and the fact that I have little use personally for any of those cards. It would just irritate me. Maybe I'm a little hard on Masticore, but at the time they were the rage, I was playing a deck that dropped Kird Apes and Serendib Efreet left and right, and the thing never scared me one bit. Died really nice to plowshares too. Still, with the sort of decks I play, I have no use for them. At the very least, I have no use for them for the price they're fetching.

    Exposed as the type of player who has complained about too powerful cards since the begininng of magic. I remember hearing stuff like this back in 1995. Its never changed. Its always the Standard players too.

    I have a confession to make, I'm not really sure what format any of my decks are legal in, and I carry 11.5 decks with me to go play. The only one I'm actually sure about is my one elf deck, and I know that deck isn't legal in any format with its 4 Yawgmoth's Bargains. I don't play formats. I play cards. I buy cards and if I like them I play them. I've always found the Standard players quite elitist. They always had to have things their way. Extended, Vintage and Legacy players are a lot more forgiving, since they're either playing with decks as ugly as mine or their decks are ridiculously powerful and face no threat from us Timmies. I play newbie magic. We just play and have fun. There isn't any card broken enough to make us angry because we all suck...

    ...other than those mo%$#^@!^%ing islands! (and thats why I play them)
  18. DÛke Memento Mori

    Exposed? huh? Once again, I'm not sure where you pull your information from. Or maybe I do know. In any case...being the Standard player that I am, I've faced all kinds of threats. Sure it's not pretty being beaten by Raffinity, for example, but I think a lot of its cards are so easy to deal with its not even funny. I've faced many powerful cards. But having played the environment for about 2 months, I can safely say that even now, Eternal Witness is an underrated card, and its power is rather obvious and even arrogant. I can also safely say, in my opinion, that it is the most powerful card in Standard only because it can be thrown into any deck with Green and it would be effective: that's not the way a card should function.
  19. TheCasualOblivion 10 year Veteran Newbie

    1. Eternal Witness is 1GG. You need a deck with fairly heavy green. You can't just drop 8 green mana sources in a deck to splice in the Witness. Raffinity can't use the witness, and could only put it out with Aether Vial if it really HAD to. Granted, a commitment to green isn't a big a deal as it has at times in the past.

    2. In an aggro-beater deck, 2/1 for 1GG is just too slow. Even if you get a giant growth or Shock back in the deal, its still slow. Most aggro decks won't trade speed for card advantage. I'm an aggro player, and I have yet to really have a desire to get some Witnesses.

    3. We are on the verge of the release of the second post-Eternal Witness expansion. The existance of the Witness has yet to challenge the supremacy of Ravager Affinity. Its had enough of a chance, and it hasn't yet. I don't think Betrayers will change it, and I have a feeling Kamigawa 3 won't either. When Ravager Affinity leaves Standard, so will Eternal Witness, so we'll never know what Eternal Witness could be in a non Affinity environment, unless they ban some stuff. Sure, it may be a power card, but it hasn't stopped the tide of Affinity.

    4. I haven't heard of the Witness having an impact on Vintage, Legacy or Extended to the extent you've been complaining here.

    You've been part of the environment for 2 months? Where were you before that?

    As far as me, I am a comitted and lifelong Timmy player(OOO!!! Shivan Dragon!!!!) sworn to use all that has been learned about magic to take the stupid Newbie deck as far as it can go(10 years in the works). It doesn't sound like you would have much fun playing me, especially since my decks aren't very legal in Extended or Standard(if they are, I assure you its by accident).

    This is why I, TheCasualOblivion, am a member of 'The Casual Players Alliance'
  20. DÛke Memento Mori

    Of course it's not going to challenge it. Eternal Witness is but one card. Raffinity is a deck with good cards that evolve into overpowered cards as the deck is played out. See, that's where the problem lies: Raffinity is a deck, not a card. Eternal Witness is a single card, it has no "concept" about it: you play the card, you get the 2/1 creature, and you get a card back. That's it. It doesn't require you to have a theme, it doesn't care. It's...just one card.
    You know why? Because not once did I suggest that it was having an impact anywhere. In fact, I've declared that I'm a Standard player and that it was singlehandedly the strongest card in Standard; what about other formats? But...I don't care about other formats! Maybe you haven't played Standard before, but I assure you that playing a 3 color deck isn't hard at all. In fact, there is a 5 color Honden Shrines deck that's slowly attaining popularity. I have yet to see a player - even a bad player - get mana screwed because he's playing 4 or 5 colors. The environment offers great options when it comes to sources that provide different colors of mana. So that in return makes it easier to play the Eternal Witness, even if it has a double G in its casting cost.
    And that is why I'm not sure if I should be feeling sad or just laugh my behind off.

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