I...hate...Eternal Witness

[Mikeymike]

Witness is an annoying card, no doubt about it.

Its never seems to be a random inclusion card, it often finds itself in a toolbox deck that has 1 of the 5,700 ways to recur creatures...which makes it a big problem to deal with.

You kill the engine? They witness it back to their hand.

From a casual standpoint, Eternal Witness borders on being a problem card. If it is in a deck, usually that deck becomes very difficult to stop - due to this 1 card. I played it in two decks, and one of those I had to remove them b/c people hated it so much.

 

[Oversoul]

Eternal Witness is pretty fun in Survival-based decks...

Regrowth is a stronger card overall. I would rather deal with Witness, personally...

 

[TheCasualOblivion]

Maybe you haven't played Standard before, .

Never in my entire life, but continue...

but I assure you that playing a 3 color deck isn't hard at all. In fact, there is a 5 color Honden Shrines deck that's slowly attaining popularity. I have yet to see a player - even a bad player - get mana screwed because he's playing 4 or 5 colors. The environment offers great options when it comes to sources that provide different colors of mana. So that in return makes it easier to play the Eternal Witness, even if it has a double G in its casting cost.And that is why I'm not sure if I should be feeling sad or just laugh my behind off.

Still, you say you can throw Eternal Witness into any deck with green. As I said before, certain Affinity builds have packed green, and don't bother with EW. And yes, the format can support intensive multicolor decks, but in order to do that, you have to put a lot of cards and effort into it. Its not a question of splicing it in with 8 sources of green, you need to do a lot more than that. Eternal Witness requiring a lot of support doesn't mean it can't be done or even necessarily that its difficult. You yourself said you can just throw it in any deck with green. That just isn't the case.

You also say nothing about an Aggro deck. You say Eternal Witness can be thrown into any deck with green and be abused. I stand by my original statement, that Affinity, or another Aggro deck has no use for a 2/1 for 1GG. Its just too slow. Even with getting a card back, its still slow.

Eternal Witness is not all powerful.

 

[Chaos Turtle]

I love Eternal Witness. I think it's just the effect green needs to keep it interesting. I think green recursion has been underrepresetned for years, and this card has made it relevant again. No longer is green just for beatdown and Naturalize. Now green can show off its version of card advantage; attached to a creature, appropriately enough.

Now if we could just get some good bounce from blue...

 

[Rooser]

Hey, Duke. How about you learn to play magic instead of just complain about it.

C'mon, dude. It's a 2/1 green creature with double green in it's cost that generates card advantage. This is hardly something to complain about. It attacks, it blocks, and it let's you play more spells. It encourages interaction and it causes you to rethink your strategies. The card is perfectly healthy for the game.

I think the fact that it is a creature is the very reason it somehow seems wrong to you to find it in every other decklist. Are you bothered by the proliferation of efficient burns spells or cost-effective cantrips or the black removal du jour? Probably not. But a creature with similar flexibilty? OH NOS!!!1!~!!

I'm sorry your not used to B/G decks that aren't total piles yet, but the 90's called and they want their fear of change back.

 

[Chaos Turtle]

If the 90's call and want my B/G deck that isn't a total pile back, they can bloody well go to hell.

*dies*

 

[TheCasualOblivion]

Hey, Duke. How about you learn to play magic instead of just complain about it.



I think the fact that it is a creature is the very reason it somehow seems wrong to you to find it in every other decklist. Are you bothered by the proliferation of efficient burns spells or cost-effective cantrips or the black removal du jour? Probably not. But a creature with similar flexibilty? OH NOS!!!1!~!!

I'm sorry your not used to B/G decks that aren't total piles yet, but the 90's called and they want their fear of change back.

I don't know about the 90's, but I thought there were always people whining about cards. DUke hates cards that people put in all sorts of decks. I'm not really sure what to think of him. I haven't heard him call himself a casual player, but he's a big fan of the Standard environment. I wasn't aware that people could be casual players AND big fans of the Standard environment.

 

[Spiderman]

I don't think they HAVE to be mutually exclusive...

 

[DÛke]

Rooser:

Hey, Duke. How about you learn to play magic instead of just complain about it.

Hold your fire grandma top-gun.

It is obvious you haven't read much of what I had to say, fair enough - though, speaking of "fair enough," I would have expected you to at least not reply when you haven't read much. I have yet to whine about Raffinity, or any of its cards; I have yet to whine about any powerful deck in general. And I've faced many of them. But, once again, I have to repeat myself: I'm not bothered by powerful cards, just come see me proudly playing my Kokusho deck. And I'm not afraid to face powerful cards, that's for sure. What I hate is playing against players who play different decks but again and again having to face the same wash, rinse, and repeat strategy using the same one card. Personally, I find that it becomes rather boring. So maybe I am actually a more casual player than you are because I like to face decks that are as creative as mine, hence, I just laugh it off when I lose to Raffinity because I know the guy didn't really put much effort into building it.

CasualOblivion:

I wasn't aware that people could be casual players AND big fans of the Standard environment.

That's because you're not aware of many things, so the definition of a casual player should be the least of your concern.

One advice to all you people out there who can't see past your noses: just because someone enjoys winning, even enjoys rubbing it in (especially when facing the more arrogant decks and cards), and plays nothing but Standard, does not by all means they don't enjoy the creative, more "casual" aspects of the game. Get that straight, at least, because it seems to baffle the wits outta some of you.

 

[Killer Joe]

Though I don't play "Standard" much anymore I have made it my bussiness to know the cards and the "Decks-to-Beat". I've said this before, I now consider myself a "Casual Player" <Totally> but I AM a big fan of standard. And as for "Hating" cards I force myself to think this famous phrase: "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."

I remember hating Tradewind Rider the first time I came up against it but as time passed on I grew to respect its power and finally I grew to really like it so much I got four copies and built myself a Five-Color Green deck.

As for hating Islands I got this to say:

"Whatchu talkin' about Willis!"

 

[TheCasualOblivion]

because you're not aware of many things, so the definition of a casual player should be the least of your concern.

One advice to all you people out there who can't see past your noses: just because someone enjoys winning, even enjoys rubbing it in (especially when facing the more arrogant decks and cards), and plays nothing but Standard, does not by all means they don't enjoy the creative, more "casual" aspects of the game. Get that straight, at least, because it seems to baffle the wits outta some of you.

I'm aware of a lot more than you think DUke. I just choose not to care and play newbie magic. Its more fun. Its a free country.

 

[Notepad]

Newbie Magic, eh? I'm thinking of doing something like that--Buying a fat pack of BOK and a precon, and just using those for a while. Get the feeling of what its like to play as a complete newbie again, and to be forced to use crappy cards and see if they have any merit.

Ooooh, the fun days!

 

[Spiderman]

I'll always remember Zak Dolan's article in the Duelist about how he turned a Revised starter into a deck that could compete head on with a deck that had the Power Nine in it and win. He listed a hefty bunch of rares that he acquired while doing so. I was always impressed by that...

 

[Notepad]

Yeah, I remember that, too. A lot of valuable trade advice there. Mostly how to rip people off and get away with it, and smile about it. I used to think for the longest time it was my favorite Duelist article ever. Then, I finally realized what a scumbag the guy was.

I've tried many times to repeat the success he had, but you know, on a more realistic scenario. However, there are two gaping holes in trying to think he honestly did what he did:

1) He played for ante against morons who also had Power Nine in their decks. Yeah, if you find the right retard with a Lotus, and manage to win it in an ante game, you just scored an easy free load of tradestock.
2) He said plainly (though tried to fluff the point away) that he totally ripped off a lot of newbie players who he found playing in an isolated league or group or something. He scored a bunch of easy rares and good cards this way. He also mentioned how they were angry afterward, but he had made his profit.

Basically, he found real good suckers, and suckered them. That is the *only* way he succeeded in his experiment. With my many tries, I can say it is possible to make a good deck from a starter with a TON of effort, but you will never turn one random starter into a rare-laden monster. No way in hell. He was lucky to know rich morons. Such richness doesn't exist anymore. The morons of today don't carry Power Nine into ante games. Thus, there is no way to recreate his success.

 

[jorael]

I'll always remember Zak Dolan's article in the Duelist about how he turned a Revised starter into a deck that could compete head on with a deck that had the Power Nine in it and win. He listed a hefty bunch of rares that he acquired while doing so. I was always impressed by that...

Today you just got to a prerelease. Or do a sealed with some friends.

I'm just very thankful they don't print ante cards anymore.

 

[Notepad]

Yeah, go to a prerelease for fun times.

I hope you don't mean trying to trade. Trading at a prerelease is harder than trying to get a date with Martha Washington. Yeah, I've tried the whole necromancy thing. Didn't work, I'll tell you now. Trading is that hard, if not twice as bad, at prereleases.

 

[Spiderman]

I totally did not get that from his article.

1) I'm not sure about the moron part, but if you had the Power 9, wouldn't you think you could take a deck without it? I think THEY just thought they were gonna score an easy win and take a card.

2) The only part resembling that I remember was when he went to some friends in a different state and traded something like 30 commons for a couple rares. AND he said that they weren't buying anymore cards, so trading was the only way to get new cards. Now if you weren't using the rares but needed the commons, wouldn't you trade?

Another example he gave was trading a Force of Nature for a BoP and a Howling Mine. He said dollar wise, he came out behind but he came out ahead card-wise. Now, this could be an example of "ripping" off someone but let's remember the time frame. Craw Wurms were still big then; someone might go ga-ga over the FoN and not use the BoP or Mine. In trading, it's all in the eye of the beholder.

Nowadays, people may be more astute about trading, but some always have quirks; I traded a bunch of Llanowar Elves to Tabasco or 13NoVa for a card or two because he liked or collected them.

 

[Chaos Turtle]

I wasn't aware that people could be casual players AND big fans of the Standard environment.

Depends on what you mean by "casual players" and "big fans" I guess. When I was playing regularly (which I hope to be doing again sometime this year) I played some Standard (& drafts) at local tournaments, as well as the odd big tournament. Then I would go home and play some half-whacky format with my friends. I played tournaments and home games; what's the problem?

 

[Killer Joe]

Yeah, go to a prerelease for fun times.

I hope you don't mean trying to trade. Trading at a prerelease is harder than trying to get a date with Martha Washington. Yeah, I've tried the whole necromancy thing. Didn't work, I'll tell you now. Trading is that hard, if not twice as bad, at prereleases.

Really!? On Sunday of the BoK PR I traded for lots of good stuff and, in fact, in my area trading at PRs is the BEST time and place to trade.

Also, I agree with Spidey in that trading card values are in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Ferret]

Well, I know that there are vultures everywhere. A few years back I went to a local card store to sell some of my cards (to pay rent) and unloaded a full set of Dual Lands, A Mox Jet, and a Black Lotus for an ammount I won't disclose, because I'm not too happy w/ what happened afterwards....that's a story for another time (let's just say that it lead to a fight between me and Mrs. F and I stopped playing and it was why I vanished from the CPA for about three years).

...that night there was a friendly casual tourney (remember when WotC sponsored those?) and I stuck around for fun. It was a lot of fun and I got to give good advice to a couple of kids just starting out. Well, the trader and his rotund friend stuck around trying to bilk the kids out of their good cards. I helped a few of them not make a mistake by selling away some good cards to these jerks. They were pretty mad, but the owners of the store liked me more than them and they were asked to leave before the tourney was ended.

These kind of people show up everywhere to try and screw people. Casual tourneys and pre-releases (ran into a couple dozen at the Urza's Saga PR) are their favourite hunting grounds because you're more likely to find people that don't know the value of the new cards and since these guys read all the spoilers (and deck ideas that are spawned by them) they hunt for the cards and then make a small fortune on the secondary market. Pure evil.

-Ferret

"BTW, I made it to the Top 4 of that casual tourney..."