Fake Card: Solitary Griffin, Beefy Flyer with a cost.

[Spiderman]

Other than that, I think it's clear to anyone that my first post here was rather objective and helpful, even had some ideas; your reply to it was violent, and then you talk to me about angst?...

I think it was until the last paragraph where FoWS might have taken the "laughable and flawed in nature" part personally...

And I'm still waiting on an answer from Oversoul about why HE think WW is not essentially 2W, which would be easier if he had chosen to put his reasons in the same post than do another throwaway line like that...

 

[Limited]

I think the second version of the card is still too good. I think at 3/3 flying he could still be costed 1WW and be considered playable..

@Duke: I know what happens here mostly is tinkering with casting cost. FoWS offers an idea for a card and I wouldn't want to stray to far away from it. I do agree with you that there is a big difference in flavour between WW and 2W. Counterspell was a good example: To counter a spell unconditionally, means that the spell is 'very blue', flavorwise. This should be represented by the casting cost. Most counterspells with only one blue mana in their cc have some kind of restriction or condition (Mana Leak, Complicate), and most with two or more are 'hard' counters (with perks, like Dissmiss or Spelljack).

I think Dawn Elemental is a good example of this. Preventing all damage to it seems like a very white ability and added to that it is an Elemental. This combines very well (again flavorwise) with a cc of WWWW.

It difficult to create a card that is both balanced as 'well-flavored'. I you object to changing the cc from WW to 2W you should offer a argument, which could well be based on flavor. Personally I don't think 2W is very wrong in this case; he destroy all your creatures, which doesn't seem very white (it not a very fair or noble thing to do).

Of course, it also matters for splashability and the metagame. Suppose Saviors were to contain the following creature

Madman ??
Madman is unblockable
Whenever Madman deals damage to a player, draw a card
2/2

With monoblue being big as it is nowadays, it probably shouldn't be costing UUU because it would be playable and would push more decks towards monoblue. Costed at 2U it would be to easy to cast for any deck, so you would probably and up with something like 2UU, 3UU or 4U.. in which case I would like it at 4U because it could be splashed more easily.

Flavor vs Playability. Sometimes it's a trade off, sometimes they combine great, sometimes cards get cut because they can't get them to work..

@FoWS Keep the cards coming, I like seeing your handywork and giving some advice. Where do you get the artwork?

 

[Spiderman]

he destroy all your creatures, which doesn't seem very white (it not a very fair or noble thing to do).

What about Wrath of God or similar white effects?

 

[Limited]

What about Wrath of God or similar white effects?

WoG and its ilk all a typically white effect because they destroy all creatures. This creature destroys all your creatures, which makes it kinda sacrificial.. like the black demons of yore he required meat or something like Death Pit Offering. It could also be red. Desolation Giant demonstrates that this ability is essentially red, but also what would happen if white were added to the mix..

 

[Spiderman]

Ah, I see what you're saying...

 

[Force of Will Smith]

@Duke: Candy coating is fine.. delicious in fact, calling ideas crap are fine as well.
I just didn't like the fact that you made a blanket statement regarding all my cards.. I guess i took the most offense because you started your post explaining casting costs, talked a little about magic's doom as we know it.. which is fine.. and then you sleighted me and tried to qualify it.. That and the fact that even though 99% of my ideas are based on existing cards, you said that my mechanics or whatever were laughable... which didn't make sense if they were based on actual cards..

If i posted my griffin and your post said the following...

The idea is crap... a 4/4 flier??? are you on crack? he's only WW? you'd totally win!
And sacrificing all your creatures??? thats a black ability? this idea is flawed in concept, laughable, and i think this idea is bad.. scrap it..

in some form or another, ppl that advise me on how to fix my cards have said things like this.. maybe not all at once and maybe not "the idea is crap"

I'd be like.. what? i thought it was fine... ok well.. ill tell him why i dont think the griffin is completely off base..
i would have talked about Mageta, and the others listed below.. i would have then addressed the casting cost.. but with some uneasiness cause i wasnt sure..
then i'd give you reasons why you wouldn't "totally win" give my opinion why it wasnt a black ability... or rather... that usually it is. but maybe for flavor it might work...
*BEGIN QUOTE LINE*
but ultimately it would be your opinion...
*END QUOTE LINE*

If i felt my idea was "good enough to keep" I might listen to suggestions.. but i might continue the development offline with other people... For example.. breathless ghoul is probably going to be a mix of the original and the final... vamp overlord was completed here, the neuromancer i thought i was going to have to scrap it entirely, except for the name..

It goes both ways too. When someone makes a suggestion i don't agree with. I don't insult them. I tell them why i don't think i should use it.

I post a lot of these cards expecting to have them ripped apart, concepts changed, everything really except card name changed and artwork changed... with the obsidian guardian.. i changed it like 5 times.. i think i forgot to change the last modification.. but its too much trouble at this point, and reasonably balanced..

Most of the time when people post on your cards they tell you what they like and what they dont in particular.. wouldn't you be offended if someone told you outright that you were this and that.. and that you suck?

Then you might feel you have to defend yourself, getting completely sidetracked from what your original intent on posting was. What I mean is.. what would you gain from someone going on your list and simply saying it was all trash? I don't think you'd gain much of anything. Except maybe an create a cyclical argument.

@Evan D: i'm aware the post was REALLY long... i was confused by his reasoning and slightly offended... i guess when someone is pissed and confused wierd things happen. My apologies..

@Spiderman: In regards to the casting cost.. i flashed some of my fakes to ppl in my playgroup and they nearly **** at the cc except for 1 person... but he plays complete cheese anyhow.. WW it is.. but 2/3 isnt worth it for the sacrifice as an option that was posted... so WW 3/3.. all other cr is it.

WW unanimously would be better than 1W.. cause it would seem more "fair"
I think white reins supremely as the "blow everything up" color... aside from red..

Red has Inferno, Jokulhaups, Wildfire and apocalypse and cards like that but those are primarily damage..
but white has both creature based mass-kill (Mageta [kill all other creatures]) (False Prophet) and Planar Guide (Destroy all tokens/temporary creatures)

Spell based: balance, wrath, Radiant's Judgement, winds of wrath, Planar collapse,
and
Enchantment based too: limited resources: which is for land.. but... you get the idea


the idea really came from the image of the griffin i had sitting around. I've got about 40 or so i havent found concepts or full concepts for.. most of them are really bizarre.. I have one that looks like it could be a black "clone" but no words come to mind.. faceless... effigy? nahh... um.. diabolic... nahh...
The griffin looked kinda solitary.. i knew before i wanted it to cost WW for a beefy flier with a high cost..

@Limited: Thanks, I enjoy posting. Sometimes i try to keep with the main idea and i appreciate not deviating from that too much if we can.. most of the card images
im holding now are for card ideas i've tried and just seemed like it was done before
or i just haven't gotten a good name lined up for it next. I get a lot of my art from www.epilogue.net. I used to be starved for good artwork and i'd resort to searching magic artists like jeff miracola's website and things like that..

*chuckles* i'm waiting to hear what you guys think about my oldschool cheesy photoshopped card i posted.. I'm gritting my teeth right now...

 

[Oversoul]

And I'm still waiting on an answer from Oversoul about why HE think WW is not essentially 2W, which would be easier if he had chosen to put his reasons in the same post than do another throwaway line like that...

It needs no explanation. It would be like writing an essay about why 2 does not equal 3.

 

[Spiderman]

FoWS: I only thought the p/t should be adjusted to 2/3 IF you were going to make the cc 1W. But if you're staying with WW then keep it at 3/3.

Oversoul: I disagree. There's probably a couple of pro/con arguments why a cc of one color might or might not equal 2 colorless due to flavor, effects or ability, whatever.

But if you choose not to explain, that's fine. In that case, I'm just pointing out the most recent example of a "throwaway line post" by you and that it's essentially worthless and not worth posting <shrug>

 

[Oversoul]

FoWS: I only thought the p/t should be adjusted to 2/3 IF you were going to make the cc 1W. But if you're staying with WW then keep it at 3/3.

Oversoul: I disagree. There's probably a couple of pro/con arguments why a cc of one color might or might not equal 2 colorless due to flavor, effects or ability, whatever.

But if you choose not to explain, that's fine. In that case, I'm just pointing out the most recent example of a "throwaway line post" by you and that it's essentially worthless and not worth posting <shrug>

You disagree that 1W does not equal WW, but you're telling FoWS that you believe it was a mistake to make the change. How can it be a mistake if the two are the same?

 

[Spiderman]

Keep in mind that from day 1, I never said I was a card designer or good at balancing them. All of my comments are based on gut feelings on how current cards are today.

So I think a WW cc deserves a 3/3 p/t with its current abilities, while if you "weaken" the cc to make it more splashable at 1W, it's too strong at 3/3 but should be toned down to 2/3 or whatever. THAT is what I was saying.

 

[Oversoul]

But that still seems to indicate that you believe that 1W does not equal WW.

 

[Force of Will Smith]

I think i've found a solution..

lets stir things up and say that changing a colorless to a mono color doesn't add an additional 1 colorless... but .5 colorless....
so U=1.5
it's almost 2 but more just a better version of UU. If say a spell is UUUU, it could be switched to 6 colorless.. but since it retails monocolor.. it will be 3UU.
I totally solved it
*EDIT: I was joking at first.. but this actually seems to make some sense..
Run a card that you think is overpowered or sucks through this system..

oh btw.. have you guys seen the new 2U counter spell in Saviors (Oppressive Will)
counter target spell unless they pay 4-X



Here's a mana key:

1=1.0
U=1.5
1U=2.5
UU=3
2U=3.5
1UU=4
3U, UUU=4.5
2UU=5.0
4U, 1UUU=5.5
3UU, UUUU=6
5U, 2UUU=6.5
4UU, 1UUUU=7
6U, 3UUU, UUUUU=7.5
5UU,2UUUU=8
7U, 4UUU, 1UUUUU=8.5
6UU, 3UUUU, UUUUUU=9
8U, 5UUU, 2UUUUU=9.5
7UU, 4UUUU, 1UUUUUU=10
9U, 6UUU, 3UUUUU=10.5
8UU, 5UUUU, 2UUUUUU=11
10U, 7UUU, 4UUUUU=11.5
9UU, 6UUUU, 3UUUUUU=12
11U, 8UUU, 5UUUUU=12.5
10UU, 7UUUU, 1UUUUUUUU=13
12U, 9UUU, 6UUUUU=13.5
11UU, 8UUUU, 2UUUUUUUU=14
13U, 10UUU, 7UUUUU=14.5
12UU, 9UUUU, 3UUUUUUUU=15
14U, 11UUU, 8UUUUU=15.5
13UU, 10UUUU, 4UUUUUUUU=16
15U, 12UUU, 9UUUUU=16.5
14UU, 11UUUU, 5UUUUUUUU=17

based on this cost.. creatures usually cost an equal amount, or 1 more to establish power and toughness.. then each ability is 1 mana extra.

I think cross color mana symbols are priced possibly at a solid 2 instead of 1.5

This would be why Cavern harpy is a BU=4
for a 2/2 with 2 abilities.. actually 3 abilities if you include the cost a value.



Akroma, Angel of Wrath 5WWW=9.5
6/6 with 7 abilities (overpowered)
to be more fair it would be a
6/6 with 3 or 4 abilities
7/7 with 2 or 3 abilities

Serra Angel 3WW=6
4/4 with 2 abilities (just right)

Hypnotic Specter 1BB=4
2/2 with 2 abilities
dead on.. almost broken, very overpowered.


Ball Lightning RRR=4.5
6/1(6 damage at best)
highly undercosted

Devouring Strossus 5BBB=9.5
9/9 with 2 abilities, 1 detriment.

Benthic Behemoth 5UUU=9.5
7/6 with 1 ability.. (unplayable)

Form of the Dragon 4RRR=8.5

Ancestral Tribute 5ww=8
Flashback: 9www=13.5
intial cost is potential but flashback is ridiculous for the cost

Hypnox 8BBB=12.5
8/8 with huge temporary effect
you have to justify if the 3.5 extra spent is worth the effect that you may
not even get.

Valley of Boulders 8R=9.5
Flashback RRRRRR=9
this card shows how the value of the flashback is almost identical..
problem is... its 6 damage.. so you're paying an extra 4 mana both times
for nothing. In monocolor the flashback is worth it, but you have to add in an additional cost to put it into your graveyard. Either discarding it, or using it with another card.
End result: .10 Rare

Myojin 5WW=11.5
4/6 with 1 ability. Ability costs 2WW minimum.
essentially a 5/5. Lowest cost would be 4W.
If the effect is worth 6, then it's playable/fair. (similar to akroma's vengeance, making it actually playable)

Myojin 5BBB = 11.5
5/2 with "1" ability.
priced at a 4/3, would cost 4-5.. justify if a mana cost of 6 would justify
discarding opponent's hand. (this is why this isn't played)

Myojin 7UUU = 11.5
3/3 with "1" ability. Remove 1 ability receive another.
in blue a non abilitiy 3/3

Morphling - 3UU - 6
3/3 with 5 abilities=making the appropriate cost 2UUUU or 5UU

Morphling with 4 abilities 4UU
Morphling with 3 abilities 3UU (probably untargetability, flying, and toughness)

 

[Spiderman]

But that still seems to indicate that you believe that 1W does not equal WW.

I don't. Pretty much for the reasons stated by FoWS and DUke (I believe) - an additional colored mana in the cc "represents" a stronger commitment to that color.

Just like White Knight or Longbow Archer are more powerful than similar 1W creatures (Youthful Knight).

Why, do YOU think they're the same thing?

 

[Oversoul]

That doesn't make any sense...

 

[Spiderman]

Which part? And let me preempt any one more one-liners: and why?

And you still didn't answer my question...

 

[Force of Will Smith]

I believe Spiderman's question was why do you believe that a double mono-color cost is the same as monocolor and colorless?

1. Explain 1U=UU.

I'm seriously not trying to be an ass.. but there was a lot of off topic things where it might have been easy to miss the question.

 

[Oversoul]

I believe Spiderman's question was why do you believe that a double mono-color cost is the same as monocolor and colorless?

1. Explain 1U=UU.

I never said that 1U=UU or 1W=WW or anything like that. This whole time, I've been saying entirely the opposite...

 

[Spiderman]

So have I. Yet you keep asking

But that still seems to indicate that you believe that 1W does not equal WW.

, meaning that you think *I* think WW should equal 1W in some way or I said it in the past.

 

[Oversoul]

Okay, so you agree that 1W is NOT equal to WW.

Oversoul: I disagree. There's probably a couple of pro/con arguments why a cc of one color might or might not equal 2 colorless due to flavor, effects or ability, whatever.

But if you choose not to explain, that's fine. In that case, I'm just pointing out the most recent example of a "throwaway line post" by you and that it's essentially worthless and not worth posting <shrug>

But you think that 2W IS equal to WW?

 

[Spiderman]

No, I don't think that either. Unless the WW is VERY watered down to begin with. The reason why I said "pro argument" in the quote is because FoWS said he believes it to be the same and he might be one to provide that pro argument.