Fake Card: Solitary Griffin, Beefy Flyer with a cost.

[Oversoul]

If you don't think that 2W and WW are the same, then what do you want an explanation for. The line you originally took issue with was the one where I said "WW is NOT essentially 2W" and I consider that to be a statement of fact, not something that needs expostulation (as far as I can see).

 

[Force of Will Smith]

well i renig my original 2W=WW after i "discovered" the U=1.5 casting cost formula..
It seems to make sense to me so i'm going to try to base my cards on that idea.

 

[Spiderman]

FoWS: I realized you modified your thinking. It was just at that point of time from my post that Oversoul quoted that you had still thought the original way.

Oversoul: Because I'm still curious as to why YOU think that it isn't equal. Because I just have "gut feelings" about the inequality that perhaps you can better express. Because it would have helped to see more of discussion between you and FoWS of the inequality since at that time, you were the only two on the opposing sides.

And last, because it was another example of a throwaway line given by you and I said I'd start pointing them out because you thought you weren't doing it.

 

[Oversoul]

Oversoul: Because I'm still curious as to why YOU think that it isn't equal. Because I just have "gut feelings" about the inequality that perhaps you can better express. Because it would have helped to see more of discussion between you and FoWS of the inequality since at that time, you were the only two on the opposing sides.

I can count. Also, I've played more than enough magic to know that white mana and generic mana costs are completely different.

And last, because it was another example of a throwaway line given by you and I said I'd start pointing them out because you thought you weren't doing it.

I thought I wasn't doing what? I think you're drawing a parallel that doesn't exist there. The "throwaway line" in the other thread was me absentmindedly commenting on the quality of Withering Boon. The "throwaway line" in this thread was me pointing out a fact: WW is not the same as 2W. If I said something that gave the impression that I never dismiss anything, then that was certainly off. But that's about all it means...

 

[Spiderman]

I can count. Also, I've played more than enough magic to know that white mana and generic mana costs are completely different.

How do you know FoWS hasn't played enough Magic then at the time(as your statement implies)? Why does "playing enough Magic" make you so certain that colored mana doesn't equal twice the generic (as in this case)? Is it your "gut feeling" also?

I thought I wasn't doing what? I think you're drawing a parallel that doesn't exist there. The "throwaway line" in the other thread was me absentmindedly commenting on the quality of Withering Boon. The "throwaway line" in this thread was me pointing out a fact: WW is not the same as 2W. If I said something that gave the impression that I never dismiss anything, then that was certainly off. But that's about all it means...

You're pointing out a "fact" that may not be self-evident to others... either novices or "experienced" players. As I said before, I've played "plenty of Magic" also but am not so concrete sure why it's not so... just my gut feeling.

 

[Force of Will Smith]

i don't think he meant it like that.. i've been playing magic for 10 years.. i think he just meant he's past the point where he realizes that there is a difference..

 

[Spiderman]

Well, I think you and DUke (to a lesser extent) have made the best explanations of how colored mana and generic mana relate to each other in terms of cc and effects.

 

[Force of Will Smith]

hah! *ahem* i mean.. yeah you're right...
In all seriousness though i'm psyched about the 2U counterspell in saviors!!

especially since that trend will continue... if theres a direct damage one.. picture this..


Seismic assault is in play... you have swamps and a couple badlands (also swamps) in play... you have the "deal 1 damage for each card in your hand that probably costs 2R for an instant" you pay 1B to cast infernal harvest and return all swamps... say you have 5.. dealing 5 damage..
then cast the [Oppressive Fire card] to deal another 5, then discard all 5 for 10 more damage!!!!

picture how sick evacuation and sunder become...

7 lands in play... ill tap 7, 4 for sunder, 3 for oppressive.. return all.. deal you 7 damage... etc,etc.

 

[DÛke]

FoWS:
That and the fact that even though 99% of my ideas are based on existing cards, you said that my mechanics or whatever were laughable... which didn't make sense if they were based on actual cards..

Um, your ideas are laughable because for a great part they are based on actual cards. I haven't even began discussing how the "actual cards" are in fact laughable in nature when compared to the creative creations I have seen by the likes of Istanbul, FoR, and myself as well. Just because they're by WotC, doesn't mean they're good - actually, usually it means they're bad. That said, they are your cards, and I don't care enough to really participate here that often, especially given how the very forces of the universe seem to tremble as far as your concerned, all because of silly ol'me gave you a simple, though honest, critique.

 

[Force of Will Smith]

Dude.. that's like over 20 posts ago. I got the point of your critique and besides, my last comment wasn't on whether something was laughable.. it was why i was offended.. but that's old news anyhow.. we've moved on.

I've heard of necroing posts before... but restating something in the beginning of a post? now thats just silly..

How can you expect us to take you seriously when you write such goofy **** like

"how the very forces of the universe seem to tremble as far as your concerned"

. I tried to complete avoid the fact that in what must have been less than 2 hours after my post, you immediately jumped on... exemplifying that you indeed DO have a million things in your life, unlike everyone else, and you have no time to do anything.

You can keep it up if you want to though.. your posts are hysterical

I really like the "scum of the universe" line that sounded like it was taken directly out of Men-In-Black... hehe.

Please don't neuralize me!
Seriously though, what do you want me to say so that you'll stop posting?

 

[DÛke]

It's not what you have to say, it's what you have to do.

Grow up.

 

[Force of Will Smith]

HAHAHAH.. omg.. you always make me laugh
i'll just let that slide.
and are you seriously 22?

 

[Oversoul]

Gut feeling? A plains taps for a single white mana. Some other cards can grant more white mana. A lot of cards can grant colorless mana of some sort, like Crystal Vein or Ashnod's Altar. White mana can be used to fulfill generic mana requirements of spells or abilities or white mana requirements. Colorless mana can only be used to fulfill generic mana requirements. The array of cards that can be used to provide colorless mana are different from the ones that can provide white mana.

To complicate things further, generic mana requirements can also be filled by colored mana of any sort.

The whole "color wheel" thing becomes involved too. A single white mana can provide a 2/1 Savannah Lions, but a blue mana won't do the same. The whole idea seems to be that certain colors of mana are more effective at accomplishing certain things.

As much as it would simplify things, there is no such easy translation system as "one colored mana=two generic mana."

If the game really did work that way, Masticore could cost WW and its abilities could cost W each.

Or Balance could cost 3! Well, Balance is broken either way, but it would be even moreso...

Or how about Sliver Queen for 2UBRG? Or Sliver Queen for 4BRG? 6RG? 8G? 10? On one hand, it's twice as much mana. On the other it can now be easily cast with a bunch of colorless mana from some artifacts or wherever. Now its synergy with Dream Halls or Coalition Victory or such things is gone. Now its not so vulnerable to creatures with protection from certain colors. Now it IS vulnerable to Dark Banishing. The list goes on and on.

I'm sure that a lot of people would be happy with a Dark Ritual that provided 2BB instead of BBB.

These examples are just scratching the surface, since this principle is so general, and so fundamentally connected to the game that it probably applies to every card ever printed (some moreso than others).

Magic is a complex game. That's part of the appeal. W is simply not the same thing as 2W. I don't need my gut to tell me that. I can use my head.

Now, I can understand where there might have been some confusion. FoWS did say that they are essentially the same and not exactly the same. The two are different. But still, "essentially the same" is an oversimplification, much the same as saying that W and U are essentially the same, when W gives you Savannah Lions and U will not, or U gives you Brainstorm where W will not.

But if you have something like Skyshroud Elf in play...

 

[DÛke]

Oversoul hits all the nails on their heads.

Everyone who wants to begin to create cards must have that knowledge, in the very minimum. Creating balanced, unique, and fun Magic cards is not something anyone can do. In fact, I've seen dozens of card creators, but can only recall very few who had any idea what they were doing. It doesn't matter how long you've played the game. Knowing the rules of the game doesn't mean you have any idea about the principles behind the invention of the cards. They're two completely distinct worlds.

And, to add some more fuel to the fire: even these "theories" change. The value of a single Green mana today is not the same as some years ago. Although there are general guidelines ("color wheel"), those guidelines themselves are very flexible, though their flexibility is not instantaneous, but gradual. A famous and easy example is how once upon a time, a single Red mana could have gotten you 3 damage at instant speed, while now it can get you 2 damage, at best...unless there are other restrictions imposed...

 

[Spiderman]

Oversoul: See, now THAT is more like it. Your explanation goes a long way in helping me redefine my "gut feeling". The only thing I have a slight issue with is that I'm not arguing at all that you can't substitute 2 generic mana for a colored mana in multicolored cards - that's just goofy and obvious even to me, gut feeling or no. It's within a color as the example we're talking about - WW vs 2W - and how that's different.

DUke also nailed it with his last paragraph - the thinking behind the color wheel and cards have changed over the years. So while it's slightly hard to use WOTC's card as reason to change FOWS's cards ever so slightly, it's probably better to use current and recent cards rather than past cards (not saying anyone has actually done that, but just thinking aloud).

 

[Oversoul]

Honestly, it might have been a "gut feeling" that originally tipped me off to that, however much I'd like to believe that it's purely rational thought. I don't recall, although I should probably have considered it in that context before posting as though "gut feelings" cannot have anything to do with it whatsoever...

 

[Force of Will Smith]

I'd like to applaud duke for actually posting a constructive comment.. devoid of insults

I actually wasnt saying that my playing for an X amount of time had anything to do with it.

 

[Spiderman]

Do with what?