Extended Discussion on Personal Views

[DÛke]

...

Spiderman, then perhaps we should say about the other pictures? And the entire media, and every news outlet.

In that particular picture, Almindhra had focused on the "action" itself, but rather, when we zoom out, we can see the "action" behind the "action." That is as far as I can say without spoiling the fun. When we zoom out of anything, we can see it more clearly, because we can see it from far away. Most people like to focus on the small "facts," much like the "fact" in that picture, without reading the befores, the past, the history, or even the surrounding facts. Today, America wants to aid Iraq. According to Almindhra's "concept," and what I can draw from that T-shirt she posted, it seems that she thinks the U.S. is really there to liberate. Perhaps they should have liberated 3 years ago? 4 years ago? 5 years ago? 6 years ago? It is quite suspicious that they want to liberate now. But Almindhra's perception is that limited, that fixated...surely enough, it is the perception of many people, Americans and Arabs alike...

 

[Spiderman]

Maybe you should spoil the fun 'cause I see no connection between the two pictures since you cannot "zoom" in the big one to pick out the little one. Thus, how can you say one's a bigger picture than the other?

I'm not even sure what you can draw from her t-shirt picture - I would guess she's against outside involvement in Iraq's affairs from it. Thus it seems we have differing views of that picture alone. Who is right (or is there a "right"?)

 

[Lotus Mox]

Originally posted by Spiderman
Maybe you should spoil the fun 'cause I see no connection between the two pictures since you cannot "zoom" in the big one to pick out the little one. Thus, how can you say one's a bigger picture than the other?

That's true, you definitely need to look at both pictures to get the complete scene, simply because the resolution on the second one isn't high enough.
But don't you think that the impression the first picture makes, is relativated by the 2nd one?

I'm not even sure what you can draw from her t-shirt picture - I would guess she's against outside involvement in Iraq's affairs from it. Thus it seems we have differing views of that picture alone. Who is right (or is there a "right"?)

huh? Maybe you are not getting the impressions from pictures most ppl get? that's strange, it is very clear that the statement on Almindhras T-Shirt is meant ironic. e.g. the disgustingly evil provoking grin on Saddam and the whole sadness the other figures show point you to that direction.
The words alone can be interpreted in both ways, that's true, but the picture makes clear that they're meant ironic.

[edit] grammar

 

[Spiderman]

What I see in the first picture: Iraqis climbing over a fallen statue (which I assume we all know to be Saddam).

What I see in the second picture: a few tanks at the compass points outside of a park, which presumably has the first picture scene in it, which I can't zoom in to see for sure, and a bunch of cars in the northeast street.

How are they tied together? I have no idea unless one of you guys have some hidden agenda that you're keeping hidden.

T-shirt: Taking the shirt at face value without knowing what the views were behind those printing it, it seems to say that the Iraqis are "not as good as us" and Saddam is doing a great job killing them himself so we don't have to go in and do it for him.

 

[DÛke]

Spiderman, concerning the shirt, please tell me you are joking!

I do not know what to say. Perhaps I am sick after all!

Of course, that is the problem...to look at a thing form a "face value" perspective.

Enough! Enough! O enough!

All efforts seem to be more futile as we morph thru time...

Please tell me this is a joke!

 

[Mazzak]

The second picture is of that same square with the statue in it, showing that from a perspective of the whole area you can see that it was only maybe a couple hundred people involved. In other words, when CNN and other American propaganda sources took their pictures, they did so in a way to maximize the visible crowd size when really it was only a very very small minority of the people in Baghdad.


edit: Spiderman, go to the site that Almindhra linked to in the shirt post. That will tell you all that you need to know about that.

 

[Apollo]

Spidey: obviously the shirt is a sarcastic pro-war statement... especially since you know should really know Ally by now.

And I saw the same thing from the pictures; look how many people are actually there... that park is really pretty empty.

 

[Ferret]

...and for all of those reasons, I never take any of the Big Media conglomerates (CNN, MSNBC, FOX News) seriously. I just have my own opinions. I like them better because I created them - I didn't let anyone else do it.

-Ferret

"Chaos is reigning right now. Just kick back and enjoy the carnage..."

 

[sageridder]

I've intentionaly refrained from adding to these discussions, but this whole bit about the two pictures begs for one observation I have yet to see.It seems well at least to me to be kinds apples and oranges the two pictures would appear to have been taken many hours apart.Now what can we tell from these photos?Really anything you want.You can extract any "Truth" your preconceptions want to see.The first photo to some shows a mob of people showing their contempt for Saddom, to others it shows a mob showing off for an occuping force and many many cameras.The second to some shows hey look it's just a handfull heck they may even be collecting the brass from the statue to sell, to others it shows look even hours later their are still people there.Its all too subjective to the mindset people come to these discussions to begin with.

Is their anyone here that really belives they are gonna open someones eyes and change their heart with the opions they are giving?

I guess I didn't even realize it when I started wrighting this but the thing that has really provoked me into wrighting is that it pains me to see the way that so many are flaming at each other.
I don't have a problem with reasonable discussion of any topic but it seems (to me) that many personal attacks are being thrown amongst a community of (once were) friends that came here for something as innocent as a common love of a collectible card game.
I guess the only important thing I have to say is (at least I belive it is) hopefully people here can remember the other guys feelings before you hit the submit button.
I came to this site because of a good friend that posts here as well, a person I respect and value as a friend and I hope they understand why I've said these things.I find myself coming to this site less and less because of the infighting between members.

Well I'll step down off my soapbox now, sombodys due to tear this apart point by point and counter my statments point by point .Whatever It's been bothering me for a while,

(And NOT everone is guilty of this by any means)

I just wanted to be heard.

 

[Lotus Mox]

sageridder: The first picture doesn't show a mob, it wants you to see a mob. But when you look closely you see that there aren't that many people on the picture. At least that's what I see .

I also don't think the 2nd picture was made that much later, but that's really hard to prove. As I said, you should draw your own conclusions out of these pics

I also don't think people are heavily flaming each other in this thread. This is IMO by far the friendliest message baord discussing the war, I've read.

 

[Ferret]

Sage, please don't take what I'm writing as offensive. For the most part I'm just trying to get a rise out of Duke and I think he's really enjoying it. If you ever take a look at this thread he only posts when someone mentions him or replies to his posts and then he has to come out guns a'blazing to try to make himself feel superior. To me this is all great fun...although, I know the war actually isn't.

-Ferret

"America: Founded on the right to fight a war and the right to protest it"

 

[train]

I hate him myself. I want him gone, perhaps more than your own "leaders." But to be "liberated" by your methods, and to have your seeds of shallow democratic principles planted there, that I weigh against Saddam, the result being that Saddam, no matter how much of personal hatred I have against him, is much better than American democracy.

Duke... who else was going to do it?... you sure weren't... and apparently Iraqi people wasn't doing it either... and no other countries were stepping it up, in fact, they were selling Saddam weapons so he could attempt to maintain his position of dictator...

so...

who else was going to do it???...

don't be happy it's us doing it, don't be happy how we're doing it... just be happy he'll be gone... since you hate him so much...

 

[train]

As for the 2 pictures on the park/statue...

The Pictures were both taken in the in the late afternoon/early evening hours.

From the looks of them, they were about an hour apart, Mindy's before the sun set, and the other after sunset...

So it is not to say there was a larger crowd before the first picture was taken, or there wasn't... and even so, the crowd would probably diminish over the couple hours of time we're talking about here... probably to loot the other parts of the city...

So by the time the second photo was taken, the crowd would've been considerably smaller... again... because of looting the city...

 

[DÛke]

...

Ferret, I only "react" in such a manner to those who deserve it. Again, I have treated other members considerably well, not because they agreed with me, you see, but because they are intelligent people. You are not intelligent. You have said nothing worthy of consideration. You have not had a single insight that surpasses that of a redneck's, and I have heard more proper insights from those too. Even train is beginning to sound like a genius to me, and honestly, if we shake all these threads, you will see that I have in fact agreed with train before. Your little conceptions, your little blindness that is, to see me as a one who disagrees with all, as a "nihilist," are only a portrayal of your own flooding insecurity and ebbing self-respect. Rather, it is you who like to feel "superior," with your little childish comments as "proudly offending the world," and deliberately mention that you have "own" opinions.

I show respect to those who deserve it, when they deserve it...and not because they "agree" with me. Like I said, I am not your average whore, much like your fine, educated self.

Now, for a more intelligent conversation...

train, believe me, I understand your position. First, tell me, do you think America is there to liberate? Because you seem to be unable to overcome this false notion. Very, very few people can say "Yes, America's objective is to liberate the Iraqi people," but from you, it seems like it is the only objective, that America has no other intentions, that America is just purely divine as such.

...

People in this world are brainwashed. I really cannot help but laugh when I read some of these conversations, to know that such childish fantasies still exist within some of these "adult" minds. You people are too innocent. I can no longer even blame you! Svenmonkey, Almindhra, Spiderman, Ferret, Mazzak, train...really, the list of innocent people is only too grand to handle. You people have your luxuries and your lives - you understand nothing of pain, because you have not felt it. What is the greatest pain you have ever felt? What is your greatest nostalgia, lamentation, your greatest longing? I assure you, they are nowhere near as profound as a person from another part of the world. And this is not saying your are "stupid," this is saying you are by nature innocent to pain. Not too long ago you thought 9/11 was a great deal...really, how innocent!

train, I am happy that he will be gone. But where that happiness ends, a new pain begin, a new "hatred" begins to grow.

Sageridder, I was never friends with these people. That we share the common liking of a card game is nothing relevant. I do not play the card game any more, in fact. These people and I have nothing in common. Not only am I not a friend, but I forbid myself to be their “friend.” If I say they are too innocent, well then, I – the immoralist – cannot befriend them. They are too great for me.

 

[Ferret]

Duke, Duke, Duke. Amazing how someone that hasn't even been on this planet two decades can feel so godlike (although, I know that you don't believe in the petty concept of gods).

You honestly think that if someone's opinions are the same as someone else's they're automaticaly sheep? Did you ever come to think that some of us like to think for ourselves, but somehow can come to the same conclusions? It's possible. Just because you didn't think of something first doesn't make the points any less valid.

When you post, you don't sound like the Great Intelectual you make yourself out to be. Instead, you make yourself out to be a bully just trying to pick a fight w/ anyone that will take notice of you. Rest assured, that person won't be me. I've grown tired of your tactics.

-Ferret

"Having a high IQ does not give you liscense to be a jerk"

 

[Spiderman]

sageridder: That's why I made a separate forum for Political Discussions and the warning; cause it was poisoning Off-Topic.

I too wish we could go back to just Magic instead of getting diffused with other things here.

 

[DÛke]

...

No, I don't think having an agreeable opinion with someone makes' one a sheep. However...

When someone insistantly says:

"I AM making my opinion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

"Proudly offending the world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

...what am I supposed to think?

Not sheep, but hen. Sheep would be, maybe, train. You don't have the honor for sheepliness, but henliness, that I give you.

And your childlike innocence shines through and through:

Ferret:

Amazing how someone that hasn't even been on this planet two decades can feel so godlike...

<grin> Of course! Just because I haven't experience as much time as you have, does not mean I am less mature or less knowing. But the majority of hens like quantity, not quality.

Ferret:

When you post, you don't sound like the Great Intelectual you make yourself out to be.

Maybe because I am not? Maybe that is one of your misconceptions? Maybe that is what you tell yourself so as to be able to write this kind of stuff? Maybe! But do you bother with your maybes? No, because you like to whore out your Yes.

I cannot stress this point enough: you are an unintelligent retard whose mind says "offend the world," who lies to itself by "I do have my opinion," whose insecurity shines brighter than the sunlight itself!

Few people who disagree with me yet I respect whole heartedly are TICM and Sageridder. Why do I respect them and not say, a sample of your kind? Oh, wait, because they are wiser than you? Because they have what I call, a "brain"? Should I mention that TICM is 16 (maybe younger)? He is a more insightful person than you have thus far shown, or I suppose because you are older, it makes you "better." <laugh out loud> Frankly, I haven’t a clue why you are respect anywhere in these messageboards…you offer nothing, no insights, no arguments, nothing!

train! train! train! You ought to learn from him, at least, you, you...you hen!

 

[Shiro, Time Devourer]

From Ferret: "Having a high IQ does not give you (license) to be a jerk"

Classic. It's going on as my new signature.

 

[train]

train, believe me, I understand your position. First, tell me, do you think America is there to liberate? Because you seem to be unable to overcome this false notion. Very, very few people can say "Yes, America's objective is to liberate the Iraqi people," but from you, it seems like it is the only objective, that America has no other intentions, that America is just purely divine as such.

Actually - I don't care about whether or not Iraq is liberated... I personally think we're there for revenge or spite - son finishing dad's goal... is my example.

And that's cool with me... I'm all up for finishing a job, and not wasting time... Had saddam been done away with the first time, we wouldn't be having this discussion now...

As for Liberation... I don't think Iraq has to become a democracy - I just don't think they should have saddam in charge... They'll be better off, because we had the willpower to do it... unlike France and Germany... and Russia...

And they're supposed to be major world powers(relatively speaking)...

 

[DÛke]

...

You know, train, at least you are honest! Simply for that, I can respect you, like I told you before.

But tell me, do you assume that it was ok, then, to have terrorists sneak behind your backs? I mean, in your case, we are already accepting the fact that the U.S. is there for spiteful reasons - do you, therefore, suppose that it is ok for other groups to do harm to the U.S. for spiteful reasons or to finish a job? Of course, it is clear that the U.S. has more power than small terror groups, but I am saying - can these groups be justified, just as the U.S. is justified? What makes terror "terror"? Surely it is spite, malice, and the thirst for power, domination, will to power. Now honestly, what is the difference between a terror group and the U.S.? One is openly declared under the name of "libreation," like you admit, and the other is more sincere. And since we pay respect to those whom are sincere with us, should we not pay more respect to the beautiful events of 9/11? After all, we did behold the most wonderful act of spite on live televsion.

See, I like your logic. I want to see how much more sincere you will remain before you invert the situation.