Chaos Pure and Simple-Invite only

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Mooseman

Mooseman

Isengar Tussle
I think I got this right.....

Untap, upkeep, Draw
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Pay 1
Done

Rokapoke: 28
Hand: 4
Library: 37
In play:

(UUUUUU) Plains x6

Dragon Scales (Enchanted creature gets +1/+2 and attacking doesn't cause it to tap. When a creature with converted mana cost 6 or more comes into play, you may return ~ from your graveyard to play enchanting that creature.)

(U) Soulcatcher (1/1; BIRD SOLDIER; Flying. Whenever a creature with flying is put into a graveyard from play, put a +1/+1 counter on ~.)
(U) Soulcatcher (2/3; BIRD SOLDIER; Vigilance. Flying. Whenever a creature with flying is put into a graveyard from play, put a +1/+1 counter on ~.) * Scaly *

Graveyard: Soulcatcher's Aerie, Suntail Hawk, Dragon Scales, Battle Screech, Plains, Plains, Plains, Plains, Plains, Plains
RFG: Battle Screech, Suntail Hawk
-------------------------------------------------
Spiderman: 21
Hand: 5
Library: 38
In play:

(T) Scrubland
(U) Bayou
(T,U) Savannah x2
(T) Plains
(U) Nantuko Monastery (T: Add 1 to my mana pool. Threshold - GW: ~ becomes a 4/4 green and white creature with first strike ueot. It's still a land)

Graveyard: Treetop Village, Swamp, Recurring Nightmare, Swamp, Forest, Pernicious Deed, Scrubland, Swords to Plowshares, Gaea's Blessing, Vindicate
RFG:
-------------------------------------------------
Ransac: 47
Hand: 4
Library: 27
In play:

(TT) Tropical Island (T:U/G)
(T) Savannah (T:G/W)
(T) Tundra (T: U/W)
(T) Plains
(T) Mishra's Factory (T: Add 1 to your mana pool. 1: Mishra's Factory becomes a 2/2 Assembly-Worker artifact creature until end of turn. It's still a land. T: Target Assembly-Worker creature gets +1/+1 until end of turn.)

Rhystic Study (Whenever an opponent plays a spell, you may draw a card unless that player pays 1)

(U) Crystalline Sliver (2/2, all slivers have shroud)


Graveyard: Remand, Crystalline Sliver, Gemhide Sliver, Winged Sliver, Rhystic Study, Swords to Plowshares, Wrath of God, Savannah, Tundra, Savannah, Tundra, Tropical Island, Tropical Island, Faerie Conclave, Island, Tundra, Savannah, Island, Essence Sliver, Temple Garden, Swords to Plowshares, Pulmonic Sliver
RFG: Time Spiral
-------------------------------------------------
Modus Pwnens: 19
Hand: 7
Library: 38
In play:

(U) Grove of the Burnwillows (T: 1, T: G/R, all opponents gain 1 life)
(U, U) Forest
(U) Mountain
(U) Stomping Ground (T: G/R)

(T) Wild Mongrel (2/2, discard a card: ~ gets +1/+1 and becomes the color of my choice ueot)

Graveyard: Forgotten Ancient, Reverent Silence, Lightning Axe, Healing Leaves, Healing Leaves, Forest, Mountain, Kavu Predator
RFG: Seize the Day, Kavu Predator, Arrogant Wurm
-------------------------------------------------
Mooseman: 20
Hand: 2
Library: 34
In play:

(TTTTTT) Island x6


(U) Sensei's Divining Top (1: Look at the top three cards of your library, then put them back in any order.
T: Draw a card, then put Sensei's Divining Top on top of its owner's library.)

(U) Willbender (1/2, Morph 1U When Willbender is turned face up, change the target of target spell or ability with a single target.)
(U) Spire Golem (2/4,Affinity for Islands. Flying)
(U) Venser, Shaper Savant (2/2,Flash When Venser, Shaper Savant comes into play, return target spell or permanent to its owner's hand.)
(S) Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir (3/4,Flash Creature cards you own that aren't in play have flash. Each opponent can play spells only any time he or she could play a sorcery.)

Graveyard: Willbender, Upheaval, Island, Island, Island, Island, Spire Golem, Shimmering Glasskite, Scalpelexis, Dewdrop Spy, FOW
RFG:Erayo Soratami Ascendant/Erayo's Essence,
 
M

Modus Pwnens

Guest
In response I'm going to discard Arrogant Wurm to the mongrel (choosing black), then play it for it's Madness cost.
 
M

Modus Pwnens

Guest
Yes, but madness lets me play it (for it's madness cost), and i can only play it if i can play a sorcery, so i have to do it now, or during my turn ;)
 
R

Ransac

CPA Trash Man
He's not playing a sorcery.

Invoking Madness allows you to play a spell whenever it's discarded. The spell STILL has to be played.

Teferi forces opponents to only play spells at sorcery speed. Regardless if you invoke madness on a discarded card, if it reaches the stack at a non-sorcery time, it fizzles. It's the same thing that applies to suspend cards and Teferi.

MP did it right.

Ransac, cpa trash man
 
M

Modus Pwnens

Guest
Wahey, now that I"m a judge, I have to step in here to clarify this a bit ;)

When you discard a card with madness, it's removed from the game instead. It also has a triggered ability saying: "Whenever this card is removed from the game with it's madness ability, you may play it for it's madness cost. If you don't, put it into your graveyard.".

If Teferi is in play, I can't play it (not ever), because the stack isn't empty, and therefore it isn't a time at which I can play a sorcery :)
 
R

Ransac

CPA Trash Man
Hold on... MP just ruled to nix his own move..... I call shenanigans. SHENANIGANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*Ransac runs off to get his broom. Everyone else just sighs and shakes their head.*


Ransac, cpa trash man
 
R

rokapoke

Guest
Ransac said:
MP just ruled to nix his own move..... I call shenanigans. SHENANIGANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...
Actually, MP just ruled to justify his timing -- it's in response to the casting of Teferi, so this is MP's last chance to use his Madness ability.
 
R

Ransac

CPA Trash Man
That's what I meant. I STILL call Shenanigans, though.


*Ransac is FRANTICALLY searching for his broom.*


Ransac, cpa trash man
 
S

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
Were y'all waiting on me to see if I had any responses before rokapoke took his turn? I don't have any...
 
R

rokapoke

Guest
Untap, upkeep.
Draw.
Attack Spidey with vigilant Soulcatcher.
Commander Eesha, paying 1 extra.
Done.


Rokapoke: 28
Hand: 4
Library: 36
In play:

(TTTTTU) Plains x6

Dragon Scales (Enchanted creature gets +1/+2 and attacking doesn't cause it to tap. When a creature with converted mana cost 6 or more comes into play, you may return ~ from your graveyard to play enchanting that creature.)

(U) Soulcatcher (1/1; BIRD SOLDIER; Flying. Whenever a creature with flying is put into a graveyard from play, put a +1/+1 counter on ~.)
(U) Soulcatcher (2/3; BIRD SOLDIER; Vigilance. Flying. Whenever a creature with flying is put into a graveyard from play, put a +1/+1 counter on ~.) * Scaly *
(S) Commander Eesha (2/4; LEGENDARY BIRD SOLDIER; Flying, protection from creatures.)

Graveyard: Soulcatcher's Aerie, Suntail Hawk, Dragon Scales, Battle Screech, Plains, Plains, Plains, Plains, Plains, Plains
RFG: Battle Screech, Suntail Hawk
-------------------------------------------------
Spiderman: 19?
Hand: 5
Library: 38
In play:

(T) Scrubland
(U) Bayou
(T,U) Savannah x2
(T) Plains
(U) Nantuko Monastery (T: Add 1 to my mana pool. Threshold - GW: ~ becomes a 4/4 green and white creature with first strike ueot. It's still a land)

Graveyard: Treetop Village, Swamp, Recurring Nightmare, Swamp, Forest, Pernicious Deed, Scrubland, Swords to Plowshares, Gaea's Blessing, Vindicate
RFG:
-------------------------------------------------
Ransac: 47
Hand: 4
Library: 27
In play:

(TT) Tropical Island (T:U/G)
(T) Savannah (T:G/W)
(T) Tundra (T: U/W)
(T) Plains
(T) Mishra's Factory (T: Add 1 to your mana pool. 1: Mishra's Factory becomes a 2/2 Assembly-Worker artifact creature until end of turn. It's still a land. T: Target Assembly-Worker creature gets +1/+1 until end of turn.)

Rhystic Study (Whenever an opponent plays a spell, you may draw a card unless that player pays 1)

(U) Crystalline Sliver (2/2, all slivers have shroud)


Graveyard: Remand, Crystalline Sliver, Gemhide Sliver, Winged Sliver, Rhystic Study, Swords to Plowshares, Wrath of God, Savannah, Tundra, Savannah, Tundra, Tropical Island, Tropical Island, Faerie Conclave, Island, Tundra, Savannah, Island, Essence Sliver, Temple Garden, Swords to Plowshares, Pulmonic Sliver
RFG: Time Spiral
-------------------------------------------------
Modus Pwnens: 19
Hand: 7
Library: 38
In play:

(U) Grove of the Burnwillows (T: 1, T: G/R, all opponents gain 1 life)
(T, U) Forest
(T) Mountain
(T) Stomping Ground (T: G/R)

(T) Wild Mongrel (2/2, discard a card: ~ gets +1/+1 and becomes the color of my choice ueot)
(S) Arrogant Wurm (4/4; Trample)

Graveyard: Forgotten Ancient, Reverent Silence, Lightning Axe, Healing Leaves, Healing Leaves, Forest, Mountain, Kavu Predator
RFG: Seize the Day, Kavu Predator, Arrogant Wurm
-------------------------------------------------
Mooseman: 20
Hand: 2
Library: 34
In play:

(TTTTTT) Island x6


(U) Sensei's Divining Top (1: Look at the top three cards of your library, then put them back in any order.
T: Draw a card, then put Sensei's Divining Top on top of its owner's library.)

(U) Willbender (1/2, Morph 1U When Willbender is turned face up, change the target of target spell or ability with a single target.)
(U) Spire Golem (2/4,Affinity for Islands. Flying)
(U) Venser, Shaper Savant (2/2,Flash When Venser, Shaper Savant comes into play, return target spell or permanent to its owner's hand.)
(S) Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir (3/4,Flash Creature cards you own that aren't in play have flash. Each opponent can play spells only any time he or she could play a sorcery.)

Graveyard: Willbender, Upheaval, Island, Island, Island, Island, Spire Golem, Shimmering Glasskite, Scalpelexis, Dewdrop Spy, FOW
RFG:Erayo Soratami Ascendant/Erayo's Essence
 
Mooseman

Mooseman

Isengar Tussle
Modus Pwnens said:
Wahey, now that I"m a judge, I have to step in here to clarify this a bit ;)

When you discard a card with madness, it's removed from the game instead. It also has a triggered ability saying: "Whenever this card is removed from the game with it's madness ability, you may play it for it's madness cost. If you don't, put it into your graveyard.".

If Teferi is in play, I can't play it (not ever), because the stack isn't empty, and therefore it isn't a time at which I can play a sorcery :)
Click to expand...
I guess my question is: What is the difference between when he played it in response to my creature (Teferi) and another time? It's a creature spell that can't be played until the stack is empty.....

502.24. Madness

502.24a Madness is a keyword that represents two abilities. The first is a static ability that functions while the card with madness is in a player's hand. The second is a triggered ability that functions when the first ability is applied. "Madness [cost]" means "If a player would discard this card, that player discards it, but may remove it from the game instead of putting it into his or her graveyard" and "When this card is removed from the game this way, its owner may play it by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost. If that player doesn't, he or she puts this card into his or her graveyard."

502.24b Playing a spell using its madness ability follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 409.1b and 409.1f-h.
 
M

Modus Pwnens

Guest
If Teferi isn't in play, the madness ability lets me play it at a time in which i normally couldn't do so (namely, when the triggered ability is resolving).

If Teferi is in play, one effect says I can play it (madness) and one effect says I can't (Teferi), in cases like this, the "can't" effect always wins, so I can't play it.

Does that answer your question?
 
S

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
Untap, upkeep, Draw

Wrath of God, paying 1
Responses?

Rokapoke: 28
Hand: 4
Library: 36
In play:

(TTTTTU) Plains x6

Dragon Scales (Enchanted creature gets +1/+2 and attacking doesn't cause it to tap. When a creature with converted mana cost 6 or more comes into play, you may return ~ from your graveyard to play enchanting that creature.)

(U) Soulcatcher (1/1; BIRD SOLDIER; Flying. Whenever a creature with flying is put into a graveyard from play, put a +1/+1 counter on ~.)
(U) Soulcatcher (2/3; BIRD SOLDIER; Vigilance. Flying. Whenever a creature with flying is put into a graveyard from play, put a +1/+1 counter on ~.) * Scaly *
(S) Commander Eesha (2/4; LEGENDARY BIRD SOLDIER; Flying, protection from creatures.)

Graveyard: Soulcatcher's Aerie, Suntail Hawk, Dragon Scales, Battle Screech, Plains, Plains, Plains, Plains, Plains, Plains
RFG: Battle Screech, Suntail Hawk
-------------------------------------------------
Spiderman: 19?
Hand: 5
Library: 37
In play:

(T) Scrubland
(U) Bayou
(T,T) Savannah x2
(T) Plains
(T) Nantuko Monastery (T: Add 1 to my mana pool. Threshold - GW: ~ becomes a 4/4 green and white creature with first strike ueot. It's still a land)

Graveyard: Treetop Village, Swamp, Recurring Nightmare, Swamp, Forest, Pernicious Deed, Scrubland, Swords to Plowshares, Gaea's Blessing, Vindicate, Wrath of God
RFG:
-------------------------------------------------
Ransac: 47
Hand: 4
Library: 27
In play:

(TT) Tropical Island (T:U/G)
(T) Savannah (T:G/W)
(T) Tundra (T: U/W)
(T) Plains
(T) Mishra's Factory (T: Add 1 to your mana pool. 1: Mishra's Factory becomes a 2/2 Assembly-Worker artifact creature until end of turn. It's still a land. T: Target Assembly-Worker creature gets +1/+1 until end of turn.)

Rhystic Study (Whenever an opponent plays a spell, you may draw a card unless that player pays 1)

(U) Crystalline Sliver (2/2, all slivers have shroud)


Graveyard: Remand, Crystalline Sliver, Gemhide Sliver, Winged Sliver, Rhystic Study, Swords to Plowshares, Wrath of God, Savannah, Tundra, Savannah, Tundra, Tropical Island, Tropical Island, Faerie Conclave, Island, Tundra, Savannah, Island, Essence Sliver, Temple Garden, Swords to Plowshares, Pulmonic Sliver
RFG: Time Spiral
-------------------------------------------------
Modus Pwnens: 19
Hand: 7
Library: 38
In play:

(U) Grove of the Burnwillows (T: 1, T: G/R, all opponents gain 1 life)
(T, U) Forest
(T) Mountain
(T) Stomping Ground (T: G/R)

(T) Wild Mongrel (2/2, discard a card: ~ gets +1/+1 and becomes the color of my choice ueot)
(S) Arrogant Wurm (4/4; Trample)

Graveyard: Forgotten Ancient, Reverent Silence, Lightning Axe, Healing Leaves, Healing Leaves, Forest, Mountain, Kavu Predator
RFG: Seize the Day, Kavu Predator, Arrogant Wurm
-------------------------------------------------
Mooseman: 20
Hand: 2
Library: 34
In play:

(TTTTTT) Island x6


(U) Sensei's Divining Top (1: Look at the top three cards of your library, then put them back in any order.
T: Draw a card, then put Sensei's Divining Top on top of its owner's library.)

(U) Willbender (1/2, Morph 1U When Willbender is turned face up, change the target of target spell or ability with a single target.)
(U) Spire Golem (2/4,Affinity for Islands. Flying)
(U) Venser, Shaper Savant (2/2,Flash When Venser, Shaper Savant comes into play, return target spell or permanent to its owner's hand.)
(S) Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir (3/4,Flash Creature cards you own that aren't in play have flash. Each opponent can play spells only any time he or she could play a sorcery.)

Graveyard: Willbender, Upheaval, Island, Island, Island, Island, Spire Golem, Shimmering Glasskite, Scalpelexis, Dewdrop Spy, FOW
RFG:Erayo Soratami Ascendant/Erayo's Essence
 
M

Modus Pwnens

Guest
Would "punching you in the face" count as a response? If not, no responses :)
 
Mooseman

Mooseman

Isengar Tussle
Modus Pwnens said:
If Teferi isn't in play, the madness ability lets me play it at a time in which i normally couldn't do so (namely, when the triggered ability is resolving).

If Teferi is in play, one effect says I can play it (madness) and one effect says I can't (Teferi), in cases like this, the "can't" effect always wins, so I can't play it.

Does that answer your question?
Click to expand...
Not, really, Madness lets you play a sorcery or creature spell as an instant?
By the way, the spell is not played during the resolutuion of the ability, it is played before the controlling player yields priority, before the ability resolves....
 
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