D
Duel
Guest
Those who believes that words can do no evil forget that hitler was elected to power on the merits of his amazing oratory.....
I have a hard time understanding those (most notably Gizmo and Duel) who advocate doing nothing. As I broke it down earlier, the only way the terrorists will stop is if they change US policy. Is that going to happen? Not likely... like it or not, the US is pretty much the most powerful nation on earth. Should we abstain from world affairs? I don't think it's realistic.
Assuming thus, the terrorists won't stop. Never. But you also notice that it's the "dumb grunts" who are actually doing the killing, not bin Laden or the higher ups. They aren't going out on suicide missions. They're the smart ones. And those are the ones we have to get.
Gizmo and DUke talk about the US meddling in Mideast affairs. Aside from the Gulf War and thus keeping a military presence there, most US policy is monetary or influence, helping the already established governments do their job (whether for good or ill). What the terrorists want to do is cut off that support so they have an easier time disrupting the current government. That's pretty much it.
Terrorism is pretty much murder on a bigger scale. You don't usually see people claiming that just because someone murdered someone in a robbery, they ought to get away with it. "Let's let them go and maybe they'll stop". It's been shown before in crime that little things lead up to big things as long as the perpetrator gets away (stalking leads to rape leads to murder as an example); I see letting terrorism go unanswered much the same way.
Again, I'm not advocating a full-blown war, as in invade a country, even if it "harbors" the terrorists. We have special teams, other countries have special teams; it's about time we use them to the best we can to "cut out this cancer" of terrorism. Cut the snake's head off and try to get ahead of them so you know when future leaders rise up.
Assuming thus, the terrorists won't stop. Never. But you also notice that it's the "dumb grunts" who are actually doing the killing, not bin Laden or the higher ups. They aren't going out on suicide missions. They're the smart ones. And those are the ones we have to get.
Gizmo and DUke talk about the US meddling in Mideast affairs. Aside from the Gulf War and thus keeping a military presence there, most US policy is monetary or influence, helping the already established governments do their job (whether for good or ill). What the terrorists want to do is cut off that support so they have an easier time disrupting the current government. That's pretty much it.
Terrorism is pretty much murder on a bigger scale. You don't usually see people claiming that just because someone murdered someone in a robbery, they ought to get away with it. "Let's let them go and maybe they'll stop". It's been shown before in crime that little things lead up to big things as long as the perpetrator gets away (stalking leads to rape leads to murder as an example); I see letting terrorism go unanswered much the same way.
Again, I'm not advocating a full-blown war, as in invade a country, even if it "harbors" the terrorists. We have special teams, other countries have special teams; it's about time we use them to the best we can to "cut out this cancer" of terrorism. Cut the snake's head off and try to get ahead of them so you know when future leaders rise up.
G
Griffith_se
Guest
That's sugar coating it, they want Israel
exterminated, and anything less than giving them
the green light to do so won't be good enough, and the US will be hated.
I think the US is doing the best it can, it's kind
of hard to talk peace with people that don't think
You even have a right to exist.
Could they do any better? If so, I'm sure Secretary Powell
Would love to here there solution. They could be hero's, the ones to finally bring peace to the
Middle East, and the answer was so simple, allow one side to be eradicated.
Why didn't someone think of this before?
I wasn't just talking about Israel/Palestine, I was also referring to Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Lebanon, etc. ALL of the Middle East.
And although I am not experienced in this matter, from what I've read both sides have tried to give each other something and get peace but the "fanatical" portion (Hamas?) are not settling for it. If indeed the original goal was for the Palestines to get their land back, the extermination of Israel is necessary to them but I think they are also not facing reality in that it's just not going to happen. Israel is there to stay and they need to recognize that they'll have to co-exist. If someone ever figures that out
, the peace overtures might stand a chance.
And although I am not experienced in this matter, from what I've read both sides have tried to give each other something and get peace but the "fanatical" portion (Hamas?) are not settling for it. If indeed the original goal was for the Palestines to get their land back, the extermination of Israel is necessary to them but I think they are also not facing reality in that it's just not going to happen. Israel is there to stay and they need to recognize that they'll have to co-exist. If someone ever figures that out
, the peace overtures might stand a chance.
G
Griffith_se
Guest
Yes there are alot of good People in the region
that truly do want peace, and God willing and with
some help they shall have it.
that truly do want peace, and God willing and with
some help they shall have it.
D
Duel
Guest
You make me out to be apathetic. First off, I don't advocate doing nothing. I advocate killing nobody. You CAN act without killing people, or bombing, you know....
And I am an isolationist, honestly. I believe the US SHOULD abstain in world affairs. I think that's the only way to solve this kind of problem, but beyond my politics, I think that the US has been influencing things for their own benefit, and it's catching up with us. We've incited and escalated wars, kept oppressors in power (and brought down govenrments) all based on what we want from the country.
Notice the terrorists made no demands. Nothing about "pulling out of israel" or ANY political statement. I suggest waiting, at least, until the bloodlust cools. I would rather have peace than justice. Am I alone?
And I am an isolationist, honestly. I believe the US SHOULD abstain in world affairs. I think that's the only way to solve this kind of problem, but beyond my politics, I think that the US has been influencing things for their own benefit, and it's catching up with us. We've incited and escalated wars, kept oppressors in power (and brought down govenrments) all based on what we want from the country.
Notice the terrorists made no demands. Nothing about "pulling out of israel" or ANY political statement. I suggest waiting, at least, until the bloodlust cools. I would rather have peace than justice. Am I alone?
R
rkoelsch
Guest
What kind of action would you recommend? Sanctions hurt more innocent people that the government it is aimed at and I don't believe any country is responsible for this. Somehow a very stern talking to doesn't leave me feeling safer. I hope you are not suggesting that we wait for them to give demands. A lack of response on our part would only encourage more attacks. I understand you don't want any more bloodshed but I cannot see how that would be possible.
R
Rando
Guest
A
arhar
Guest
Oh God..... Just reading this thread gives me a headache. You really don't understand what these terrorists want, do you? America for them is an incarnation of evil, Allah's greatest enemy!!! You didn't see people in Palestine celebrating in the streets? No, this WAR won't stop until one side is completely eradicated!!! Sure, call me whatever liberal PC term you want, but this is the truth, and truth can be harsh and scary.
C
Cateran Emperor
Guest
No Duel, I would rather have justice than peace simply because we can't get peace. If you think that peace can be maintained forever (and I'm certain that you would know better) then you are liviing in a fantasy world of your own imagining.
If we do nothing, then we show the world that we are too weak and indecisive to take action. This will lead to more terrorists having a field day blowing up innocent lives. That's bad, and you should know that by now.
If we wait, the trail gets cold and justice is never served. The result is the same as the above.
If we strike blindly, at the entire Middle East, we cause far more collateral damage than we can ever allow.
However, if we demand that the Taliban turn over Bin Laden, it solves multiple problems all at once. Even if this isn't his work, he has attacked us in the past and gotten away with those crimes. By getting him, we both finally end a long standing threat to our security and potentially serve justice for the deceased if he was behind this one.
A few other quick responses:
Arhar: I agree fully. Someone has to pay, and I want it to be Bin Laden.
Gizmo: The United States had an isolationist policy in the past, and we were heavily criticized by the world for it. Germany, Japan, and Italy could well have conqured the world had we not been attacked and finally got up. After that, we took an aggressive stance toward foreign policy, and now the world is unhappy with that. You have to realize that we can't please everyone all the time. We have our own interests, we do not cater to those of Britain. Sorry to disappoint you.
Also, do not assume that you speak for every other nation on earth just because you are not from the US. I guarantee you there are nations that believe we fought the Gulf War for benign reasons. I for one know we didn't, but I don't care. Would you expect the UK to get involved in a war that didn't involve them in any way? No, because nations have to look out for their own interests first and the rest of the world second. That's the way the world has worked for millenia. Never has a war been fought by a nation if they didn't expect to come out of it stronger, so don't criticize us for doing the same thing.
DUke: Innocent people have died in attacks by the US, yes, but that is because the places they were in were basically war zones in the first place. Manhattan is hardly a war zone, so this is in no way comparable.
The reason so many of us are responding with emotional fury is because, simply, we are f-ing enraged by this. If you expect us to do nothing and just hang around while our enemies dance in the streets, you'd best think again.
If we do nothing, then we show the world that we are too weak and indecisive to take action. This will lead to more terrorists having a field day blowing up innocent lives. That's bad, and you should know that by now.
If we wait, the trail gets cold and justice is never served. The result is the same as the above.
If we strike blindly, at the entire Middle East, we cause far more collateral damage than we can ever allow.
However, if we demand that the Taliban turn over Bin Laden, it solves multiple problems all at once. Even if this isn't his work, he has attacked us in the past and gotten away with those crimes. By getting him, we both finally end a long standing threat to our security and potentially serve justice for the deceased if he was behind this one.
A few other quick responses:
Arhar: I agree fully. Someone has to pay, and I want it to be Bin Laden.
Gizmo: The United States had an isolationist policy in the past, and we were heavily criticized by the world for it. Germany, Japan, and Italy could well have conqured the world had we not been attacked and finally got up. After that, we took an aggressive stance toward foreign policy, and now the world is unhappy with that. You have to realize that we can't please everyone all the time. We have our own interests, we do not cater to those of Britain. Sorry to disappoint you.
Also, do not assume that you speak for every other nation on earth just because you are not from the US. I guarantee you there are nations that believe we fought the Gulf War for benign reasons. I for one know we didn't, but I don't care. Would you expect the UK to get involved in a war that didn't involve them in any way? No, because nations have to look out for their own interests first and the rest of the world second. That's the way the world has worked for millenia. Never has a war been fought by a nation if they didn't expect to come out of it stronger, so don't criticize us for doing the same thing.
DUke: Innocent people have died in attacks by the US, yes, but that is because the places they were in were basically war zones in the first place. Manhattan is hardly a war zone, so this is in no way comparable.
The reason so many of us are responding with emotional fury is because, simply, we are f-ing enraged by this. If you expect us to do nothing and just hang around while our enemies dance in the streets, you'd best think again.
Pretty much the only sensible option that I see that doesn't involve killing is capturing them and putting them on trial. I could go for that, but I want to make sure everyone involved is captured.
But personally, I view them as I do murderers, who pretty much lost their claim on humanity when they chose to kill. They had a choice too on how to act, whether it be violence or non-violence.
I think a good assumption can be made that it's an Arab/Middle East group that did this; you don't see the IRA or the Japanese Red Army or the Shining Path make a lot of claims against the US these days. However, automatically assuming it was Palestines is a mistake. Just because they were cheering doesn't mean "they were responsible". How many US citizens cheered when we rolled over the Iraqis in the Gulf War?
But personally, I view them as I do murderers, who pretty much lost their claim on humanity when they chose to kill. They had a choice too on how to act, whether it be violence or non-violence.
I think a good assumption can be made that it's an Arab/Middle East group that did this; you don't see the IRA or the Japanese Red Army or the Shining Path make a lot of claims against the US these days. However, automatically assuming it was Palestines is a mistake. Just because they were cheering doesn't mean "they were responsible". How many US citizens cheered when we rolled over the Iraqis in the Gulf War?
A
Apollo
Guest
Cat and Griffith both put it very well.
Gizmo, if we were isonlationalist, you would be complaining the exact opposite thing right now. Before WWII, we were isolationist, and people like you complained. Now, we get involved, and people like you complain.
No matter what is going on, other people will be mad at the most powerful countries, saying that country is not doing the right thing. It seems to me that your ideal America does nothing other than fly planes over the UK dropping hundred-dollar bills out.
Frankly, considering its own people should be its main priority, the U.S. does a ton for other countries. People over here complain that we are doing too much.
The person behind this is not doing it because Americans are oppressing his people. He is not doing it to protect them from us. The fact that he so willingly sends them to die shows that his interest is in killing, not helping. He attacks us because the U.S. keeps him from killing many more people.
Frankly, the actions of the U.S. did bring this on us. But only because those actions prevent the killing of many other people.
We could pull into an isolationist policy, as you guys want. And either the Palestinians or the Israelis would be extinct as a race shortly after. More oppressive governments like the Taliban would be in power before long. Maybe France would be part of Iraq, with the British on their way to the same fate. And the U.S. suffers too, because we lose international trade and economic stimulation. In short, it sucks for everybody.
In truth, our choices are few, and most suck.
We could do what they want, pull out. Not only does the stuff I mentioned above happen, but terrorists see that we are weak and will give into their demands. Forty more planes are hijacked in the next week, by the group that wants the New York Yankees disbanded, the group that demands to know just how do they put all that Graham into Golden Grahams, the group that wants to institute Magic: the Gathering as a National religion, and the guy who's mad cause his goldfish died.
We could ignore it, act like we always did. Same things happen.
We could declare a World Peace Treaty. Everybody could smile, sign it, and declare "a new world of hope". The terrorists don't care, they see we won't do anything and the same stuff as above happens.
We could go bomb-crazy and blow up the country the guy is in. Tons of innocent people die, and we are seen as the bad guy.
We could go capture the guy, throw him in jail. Spend tons of money to keep him alive and in jail. Breakout attempts happen daily. The terrorists just get pissed. If their leader is still alive, they still have hope.
We could go in, capture him and his entire group, and bring them back here. We put him on trial. Then, the entire grout is killed. The world sees that we don't compromise our ideals, but they also see that they won't get away with attacking us. Maybe other groups get mad, and attack. But it's the outcome that appeals more to me than any other, because there's a chance of peace afterwards.
Gizmo, if we were isonlationalist, you would be complaining the exact opposite thing right now. Before WWII, we were isolationist, and people like you complained. Now, we get involved, and people like you complain.
No matter what is going on, other people will be mad at the most powerful countries, saying that country is not doing the right thing. It seems to me that your ideal America does nothing other than fly planes over the UK dropping hundred-dollar bills out.
Frankly, considering its own people should be its main priority, the U.S. does a ton for other countries. People over here complain that we are doing too much.
The person behind this is not doing it because Americans are oppressing his people. He is not doing it to protect them from us. The fact that he so willingly sends them to die shows that his interest is in killing, not helping. He attacks us because the U.S. keeps him from killing many more people.
Frankly, the actions of the U.S. did bring this on us. But only because those actions prevent the killing of many other people.
We could pull into an isolationist policy, as you guys want. And either the Palestinians or the Israelis would be extinct as a race shortly after. More oppressive governments like the Taliban would be in power before long. Maybe France would be part of Iraq, with the British on their way to the same fate. And the U.S. suffers too, because we lose international trade and economic stimulation. In short, it sucks for everybody.
In truth, our choices are few, and most suck.
We could do what they want, pull out. Not only does the stuff I mentioned above happen, but terrorists see that we are weak and will give into their demands. Forty more planes are hijacked in the next week, by the group that wants the New York Yankees disbanded, the group that demands to know just how do they put all that Graham into Golden Grahams, the group that wants to institute Magic: the Gathering as a National religion, and the guy who's mad cause his goldfish died.
We could ignore it, act like we always did. Same things happen.
We could declare a World Peace Treaty. Everybody could smile, sign it, and declare "a new world of hope". The terrorists don't care, they see we won't do anything and the same stuff as above happens.
We could go bomb-crazy and blow up the country the guy is in. Tons of innocent people die, and we are seen as the bad guy.
We could go capture the guy, throw him in jail. Spend tons of money to keep him alive and in jail. Breakout attempts happen daily. The terrorists just get pissed. If their leader is still alive, they still have hope.
We could go in, capture him and his entire group, and bring them back here. We put him on trial. Then, the entire grout is killed. The world sees that we don't compromise our ideals, but they also see that they won't get away with attacking us. Maybe other groups get mad, and attack. But it's the outcome that appeals more to me than any other, because there's a chance of peace afterwards.
G
Gizmo
Guest
I never mentioned isolationism.
Isolationism is even more irresponsible than the current situation. It would also destroy the US economy, but thats a secondary issue.
Arab countries are pissed off since ever since the Cold War when the US started playing power politics funding one group over another to try and force a friendly regime into power. And you can be certain that the complete backing the US gives to the barbarian regime in a series of Israeli governments has made the US the number one enemy to many arab nations.
Look at the current situation in Israel, with Israeli gunships firing rockets at kids with stones. Tanks surrounding arab villages. Their behaviour is condemned by all but one nation on earth. Care to guess which nation is solidly behind Israel?
What should happen now?
Deal with the terrorists. Thats step 1. Step 2 is far more important, and thats to enter serious dialogue with the arab nations and try to solve their grievances with Israel and the US otherwise this will happen again and again and again.
Isolationism is even more irresponsible than the current situation. It would also destroy the US economy, but thats a secondary issue.
Arab countries are pissed off since ever since the Cold War when the US started playing power politics funding one group over another to try and force a friendly regime into power. And you can be certain that the complete backing the US gives to the barbarian regime in a series of Israeli governments has made the US the number one enemy to many arab nations.
Look at the current situation in Israel, with Israeli gunships firing rockets at kids with stones. Tanks surrounding arab villages. Their behaviour is condemned by all but one nation on earth. Care to guess which nation is solidly behind Israel?
What should happen now?
Deal with the terrorists. Thats step 1. Step 2 is far more important, and thats to enter serious dialogue with the arab nations and try to solve their grievances with Israel and the US otherwise this will happen again and again and again.
D
Duel
Guest
I agree. Dealing with the terrorists, though more urgent, is less important than stopping what brought this about.
Z
Zadok001
Guest
Agreed. Once the terrorist are dealt with, we MUST find a way to prevent this from happening again. Intereference has never been the way. Perhaps now Bush will see that, America will back out of issues that don't involve us.
Killer Joe
New member
What DO the Arab Nations want?
Who knows, who cares, but I'd be willing to bet it has something to do with the total annihilation of American Freedom.
Imagine living in a country where you are forced to abide by religious rules like Islam.
Is it any wonder why people of oppressed countries, like those in the Middle East, come to America? By the hundreds ever year?
It was mentioned on the news yesterday that there was a confrontation of an Arab pilot (working for an American Airline), who got drunk at a bar and refused to pay his bill. Could he have gotten away with this kind of behaviour in an Islamic country? NO, NO, NO!!!!!!!!!
They are "true" hipocrites, they tought words of "Holyness", but are just as much horny bastards as the rest of us, just waitin' to live a life of here "sin" here in America. Those terrorists probably "Bonked" many whores/prostitutes days before they attacked, gauranteed!
Did we ask for it? No/Yes
No, who would?
Yes, because we choose to live in a democratic society, and they just friggin' HATE that!
Sidenote: All here at the CPA are individuals with the right to an opinion, but to force opinions on others who disagree, is not cool. Though I don't agree that we, Americans, asked for the attack, I am, however, desprately trying to see it from another perspective, but to no avail.
Who knows, who cares, but I'd be willing to bet it has something to do with the total annihilation of American Freedom.
Imagine living in a country where you are forced to abide by religious rules like Islam.
Is it any wonder why people of oppressed countries, like those in the Middle East, come to America? By the hundreds ever year?
It was mentioned on the news yesterday that there was a confrontation of an Arab pilot (working for an American Airline), who got drunk at a bar and refused to pay his bill. Could he have gotten away with this kind of behaviour in an Islamic country? NO, NO, NO!!!!!!!!!
They are "true" hipocrites, they tought words of "Holyness", but are just as much horny bastards as the rest of us, just waitin' to live a life of here "sin" here in America. Those terrorists probably "Bonked" many whores/prostitutes days before they attacked, gauranteed!
Did we ask for it? No/Yes
No, who would?
Yes, because we choose to live in a democratic society, and they just friggin' HATE that!
Sidenote: All here at the CPA are individuals with the right to an opinion, but to force opinions on others who disagree, is not cool. Though I don't agree that we, Americans, asked for the attack, I am, however, desprately trying to see it from another perspective, but to no avail
.
Z
Zadok001
Guest
"I'd be willing to bet [the Arab nations want] the total annihilation of American Freedom."
I disagree. I believe the possibly Arab terrorists responsible for this want that. I believe the rest just want us to stay the hell out. Do you want to eradicate their society? No. But some extremist Americans DO. The Arab nations have extremists too, and they want to destroy American freedom. But the Arab nations as a whole probably do not.
I stand for justice, not for vengeance.
I disagree. I believe the possibly Arab terrorists responsible for this want that. I believe the rest just want us to stay the hell out. Do you want to eradicate their society? No. But some extremist Americans DO. The Arab nations have extremists too, and they want to destroy American freedom. But the Arab nations as a whole probably do not.
I stand for justice, not for vengeance.
M
Mr.Gnome
Guest
This is my personal opinion i don't give a oink if some people are insulted!
Gizmo: From what you are saying it sounds like if you knew who the terrorists were you would have ran up and happily joined them!
My opinion is that once we get good hard evidence about who this is we drop a nuke on their oinking country! I dont care one bit if the rest of the country is responsible or not, they paraded in the streets chearing our deaths! You could say that "the children are just blinded by propaganda" That may be but these terrorists were once blinded children and look what they did! Killed thousands of innocent people! No one that parades in the streets chearing the deaths of people is innocent, they deserve to be shot. Don't bother arguing cuz i won't listed to any of yer buloink, i cannot be convinced!
If I have offended anyone then they have a messed up mind and anyone who is saying things that defends the terrorists such as "we deserved it cuz of our forign policies" is just as bad as the ones that did this!
I hope that some of you can stop being heartless b@st@rds and actually feel sorry for the people who died and support the US in taking action against these terrorists.
Gizmo: From what you are saying it sounds like if you knew who the terrorists were you would have ran up and happily joined them!
My opinion is that once we get good hard evidence about who this is we drop a nuke on their oinking country! I dont care one bit if the rest of the country is responsible or not, they paraded in the streets chearing our deaths! You could say that "the children are just blinded by propaganda" That may be but these terrorists were once blinded children and look what they did! Killed thousands of innocent people! No one that parades in the streets chearing the deaths of people is innocent, they deserve to be shot. Don't bother arguing cuz i won't listed to any of yer buloink, i cannot be convinced!
If I have offended anyone then they have a messed up mind and anyone who is saying things that defends the terrorists such as "we deserved it cuz of our forign policies" is just as bad as the ones that did this!
I hope that some of you can stop being heartless b@st@rds and actually feel sorry for the people who died and support the US in taking action against these terrorists.
D
Duel
Guest
Ahh. Mr Gnome, meet Senator Joe McCarthy. I'm sure you two have alot to talk about.....
I'm getting worried. Gizmo says that America is less than perfect. You accuse him of supporting the terrorists? Then you take your ignorance and unwillingness to listen to anyone else's theories, and you're PROUD of it?
I feel for the americans who died no more or less than I feel for the arabs who've died, or the palestinians. I AM NOT A PATRIOT. Above all, I am a humanist. If it's traitorous not to value our lives over theirs, then I'm a traitor. But the moment you think that our lives are more important than theirs are, you've just made an awful assumption by any standard.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal...."
More over, you're about to go parading through the streets, cheering if we nuke them. You're as bad as them. Worse, they were just children.......
I'm getting worried. Gizmo says that America is less than perfect. You accuse him of supporting the terrorists? Then you take your ignorance and unwillingness to listen to anyone else's theories, and you're PROUD of it?
I feel for the americans who died no more or less than I feel for the arabs who've died, or the palestinians. I AM NOT A PATRIOT. Above all, I am a humanist. If it's traitorous not to value our lives over theirs, then I'm a traitor. But the moment you think that our lives are more important than theirs are, you've just made an awful assumption by any standard.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal...."
More over, you're about to go parading through the streets, cheering if we nuke them. You're as bad as them. Worse, they were just children.......
Z
Zadok001
Guest
MrGnome:
We feel for the lost ones, believe me. Do you? Do you know the pain of the family members of those who lost their lives? To know that their loved ones will NEVER come home again?
Do you have a funeral to attend in the next few days?
Would you be sad if you did? Yes?
Good.
If we nuke someone, there are going to be hundreds of thousands of people dead. Most will not be guilty of any crimes. Their family members will mourn, just like the family members of those lost on Black Tuesday.
That's sinking to their level. Worse, that's sinking past them into the realms of social genocide. You ask for murder, not justice.
I stand for justice, not vengeance.
We feel for the lost ones, believe me. Do you? Do you know the pain of the family members of those who lost their lives? To know that their loved ones will NEVER come home again?
Do you have a funeral to attend in the next few days?
Would you be sad if you did? Yes?
Good.
If we nuke someone, there are going to be hundreds of thousands of people dead. Most will not be guilty of any crimes. Their family members will mourn, just like the family members of those lost on Black Tuesday.
That's sinking to their level. Worse, that's sinking past them into the realms of social genocide. You ask for murder, not justice.
I stand for justice, not vengeance.