Animals?

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Ura

Guest
Something everyone should realize is that this, depending on who did it, is not about foreign policy and politics.

For instance if it is Usama Bin Ladin it has nothing to do with making peace or what america or other countries foreign policy is like, its a jihad, a holy war.
The very basis of western capitalism is against islamic teachings and the way of life is drastically different. When the extremists see this its a reason to abolish and attack even though islam also is supposed to teach peace, they just don't look at it like other more sensible islamic nations. Bin Ladin doesn't attack the US or the rest of us because of where we are or what we're doing. He uses terrorism against us because we exist, simple as that. Islamic extremists such as Bin Ladin and the Taliban dislike or hate the western way of life because of their zelous religious beliefs. Bin Ladin thinks he is a holy man, a messiha, and that his attacks are because of the will of god. It has nothing to do with oil or arms sales (which every major military power in the world is guilty of, not just the US.)
We are the anti-christs to people like this and our existence is the only reason that they do what they do, it doesn't matter if we retreat with in our borders or are involved around the world.

I would honestly hate to see the world where the US, UN, and NATO were not involved in international affairs. All over the middle east and parts of the old Soviet Union have there been confrontations and wars that would have ended very differently without this kind of involvement. They can't simply just withdraw everywhere, the world doesn't work like that and it never has.
Of couse maybe we should just withdraw into our own borders and let all the warring nations in the world kill each other off, then we can just go in and clean up the mess afterwards, good riddence to bad rubbish. Maybe have another WWII in the end.

And as I've said once before, the line between justice and vengence is very very thin to the point where the only distinguishing between them is the sevarity of the execution of them.
 
A

arhar

Guest
Thank you Ura. That's what I failed to say before - those people won't stop until we cease to exist. So it's not a matter of "warmongering", it's a matter of our own safety and survival.
 
R

Rando

Guest
Exactly.

We make war that we may live in peace.
.................................................................- Aristotle
 
Z

Zadok001

Guest
"Its a jihad, a holy war."

You're right. This is a Jyhad, but not just for Bin Laden. This is a holy war for us, too. Our book of God? American Society. We look at our society (at times) with the same holy awe that religious groups use when they speak of their God(s). When and if we fight this war, it will be a war of belief, no different from the Crusades. We may win, we may lose. Either way, lives will be lost. Just because they look to a book and we look to the Constitution doesn't make any difference - We will fight a war for EXACTLY the same reasons Bin Laden will fight a war.

The second an American gun, or a gun held by an American ally, fires into an innocent, we have sunk to his level. It becomes a war of which I will have no part. If a war is fought, then understand that innocent blood will be spilled. That blood is not on Bin Laden's hands for striking us, but on our hands for striking back with more rage than temperment.

I stand for justice, not for vengeance.
 

Ransac

CPA Trash Man
No matter what happens, I'm behind what President Bush will do. All the way. In these times, we need a president that will act, and I am confident that Bush will do what needs to be done. No I am not a strict republican, although I am republican, but this whole country needs to look towards it's leader supportively. With what has been said on this site, people would be hurting themselves over whether or not war is the answer. Is it our place to say if it is or not: no. That is the decision of our president, George W. Bush.


Just imagine how screwed everyone would have been if my Ransac/Monkey 2000 Presidential campaign was succesfull!

Staff Person: President Ransac, the WTC towers have fallen!

Ransac: Great scott! ARM THE BANANAS!!!!!!!! And turn the television to WWF, would you?

S.P.: MR. PRESIDENT!!!!!!!! THE PENTAGON HAS BEEN HIT!!!!

Ransac: Well, don't just stand there. Quickly, get a swat team to rescue my collection of live albino dwarfs!!!

Ransca, cpa trash man
 
T

Thallid Ice Cream Man

Guest
I don't think it's exactly appropriate to quote Aristotle here - the people of his day in ancient Greece believed that a death during war was an honorable death, so of course that would make perfect sense to Aristotle.
 
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Ura

Guest
Sorry Zadok, maybe its different in the US, but I've never heard of a Canadian attacking anyone because we thought our constitution was holy scripture or because we though "god" was telling us to kill through the use of the CBC.

Thats the difference between religious zealots and patriots. Patriots will do almost anything to defend the country they love and their way of life. A zealot like Bin Ladin has no country to defend so they attack any unsuspecting massive target they can that their "god" tells them too.

I can't imagine the US going and doing something like this. When they get involved in the last many years its usually to protect innocent people from being erradicated or to help allies. I certainly don't think any rational american or group of americans would go and hijack Iraqi airliners for instance and crash them into Sadam's presidential palaces.

Patriots will die to defend their country, but its that love for country that gives them the desire to live. Zealots don't have any regard for life because they think everything is taken care of by their god so they don't care and that makes them all the more dangerous.

While I agree with your idealism on protect the innocents, its just not a practical thing in todays world because it requires clear definition between the innocent and the guilty and it requires both sides to be in agreement. That just doesn't exist in modern warfare on the gurrilla/terrorist level. The innocent aren't simply defined by child, female, elderly, male and so on. I've seen the footage of the 13 year old picking up an assault rifle and shooting at enemy soldiers beside to corpse of a dead relative. Its why I said that there is ALWAYS another one to pick up the gun and keep fighting insted of trying to make peace.
Its been said a thousand times by thousands of men and women in the world, war is hell. You can't make an omellete without breaking some eggs and in war civilian casualties are always going to occure regardless of how few there may be.
 
Z

Zadok001

Guest
Please don't take this as a flame, Ura. I have a very different point of view than you, but I'm not out to fight a war with words. I'm just expressing my views. Please do the same.

The difference between patriotism and zeolotism is no greater than the side they fight on. Those who attack us are zealots, those who fight for us are patriots. You mentioned that patriots have a love for their country that inspires them to live. And yet, the greatest patriots of this country are those that died during the war for Independence; those that sacrificed themselves for their beliefs. Those that died to help win the war. Battles are fought, and lost, and those who lose are called "patriots" because they were on our side. Why? Because they killed lots and lots of bad guys before dying themselves. Remind you of anything?

I suppose on possible argument is the aggressor argument - A zealot can be looked at as the attacker, and the patriot as the defender.

When and if we attack Bin Laden, what does that make us? And what does that make him? While no American may ever hijack and crash an aircraft into a building in Bin Laden's camps, we most certainly can and may drop bombs. The only difference is that in the first case, we die too. And since our constitution says nothing about suicide bombings being a Good Thing(tm) (unlike Bin Laden's book), we don't suicide. Rather, we simply strike out and kill without dying ourselves. The difference, once again, is minimal.

Black Tuesday was a slaughter, but striking out with slaughter is not the way to solve the problem. It makes us the same thing Bin Laden is. We must identify the guilty, and strike at them and ONLY them.

(I wasn't saying that we take our constitution as holy scripture, merely that we are fighting for it in the same way Bin Laden is fighting for his ideals. He has his holy book, we have our rights, freedoms, and laws. The difference is ideological in nature - The war that may come will look very similar from either side.)

I stand for justice, not for vengeance.
 
A

Apollo

Guest
This is ridiculous.

Gizmo, you say that the Americans brought this on themselves because of their governmental acts. Like Americans paying Irish to kill the English. Later, you concede that it's just a few American businessmen.

Well, that is the stupidest goddamn statement I've ever read. If we were to come over there and throw every single Englishman in jail, then say it was because one came over here and robbed a bank, would you buy it? BECAUSE THAT IS THE SAME SHIT YOU ARE TELLING US. A few American businessmen pay the Irish, so we bring terrorist attacks on ourselves? And right after you tell us that races aren't to be blamed for the actions of the few. You hypocritical idiot. You always struck me as a good guy, intelligent and friendly enough. But the topic turns from Magic and you turn into this. You taunt people who just went through the greatest disaster here in years, possibly ever. You talk of sitting with popcorn to watch the festivities. You say we brought it on ourselves. I'd like to think that Griffith is right, and you are just suffering a momentary bout of total stupidity. But right now, you disgust me.

At least DUke is halfway intelligent about it. The thing is, we do care about the people elsewhere. I'm horrified to hear that you lost relatives this way, and you have my condolences. But the basic idea we go by is that the U.S. Government has the best interest of people around the world at heart. When they go in there, it is for the basic interest of helping people. And that's why we support their actions. It may not seem that they are helping, but we have good intentions. Whoever said the U.S. is just trying to sell our ideals so we can take over more land doesn't even deserve the dignity of a response.

In truth, the US is damned no matter what when it comes to foreign policy. If we had never done anything, if we had kept to ourselves, Gizmo and others would be here telling us we brought it on ourselves because we didn't do enough to help other countries in need. Frankly, the US generally does the best it can, and doesn't recieve enough credit for it. It makes mistakes, but it tries.

You say that other countries have gone through this all the time, that we are ignorant about such matters. I think the fact that we have gone this long without such acts is partly luck, but also a testament to the fact that for the most part we are acting correctly and have helped people.

Apollo
 
D

DÛke

Guest
...but Gizmo is not being stupid, nor is HE stupid at all. While I don't agree about everything he has said about this issue, I must admit that he has some great points.

Man, if I can only take you to my world and show you exactly what I have felt before, you wouldn't be saying any of the things you have. I just can't find the words to describe what I'm feeling, there are no words for such deep-down emotions. I know you understand me...but not fully. Gizmo points out facts, and it's known that most facts don't look good...because they relate to the hurtful truth. Apollo, dude, I respect you...but you have to understand, this is a very serious situation that in fact must be dealt with, but not by war. The U.S. can go to war if it wants, nobody can stop it...go ahead, ruin more innocent people. I'm safe right here at home...but you know who'll be hurt the most when all this is done? Even more innocent lives. Like I said, you wouldn't look at "war" and be so proud of your nation if you're in my place...

My words can't stop anything...I'm just praying that when all this is over, anyone who's guilty is brought to justice and the rest are left alone to live their daily lives.

Did I mention I got 3 phones calls and 2 men on my door asking me and my mom suspicious questions? And why - because we're Arabian Muslims living in the U.S.. Is this justice? You tell me. I find it insulting...
 
D

Duel

Guest
Duke is right. What I've been trying to say. Lives lost hold more importance than the guilt of them, or of their country or people.

We've not been attacked on our own soil. Really. The civil war, WTC bombings, all of that was us. The atlanta bombings weren't comparable.

What Duke noticed is happening all around, it's happening here, too. Remember the Japanese Interment camps of WWII? Remember McCarthyism? History is more than dates in books, it's what you live through.

And I don't think that attacks won't stop if we don't attack them. That's not how it works. Not on a day to day level, and not here either.

But, the question is not, to me, what is Right. The bombing isn't justified, and even if it were, it would make it no less tragic. Doesn't matter. The question is how to get through this with as little death as possible.

"An eye for an eye and the world goes blind" -Mahatma Ghandi
Aristotle is wrong. We make war in order to make the other side see it our way. Eye for an eye, and they've got nothing left to see it our way with.....

Beware pride. Please.
 
G

Gizmo

Guest
I AM more concerned by your reaction to it than by the event itself. I dont condemn the act because I really dont think that needs to be said, and if I wanted to express my true feelings not just about this attack or any other attack by any other persons around the world, I really dont think I possess the words to get that point across. So I stay silent.

But I am disappointed by your reaction. The terrorists are terrorists, mad/fanaticial/driven very probably, at least that is how they appear to our western liberal democratic eyes. Yet many otherwise sane people I know in America have become just as mad/fanatical/driven to my eyes by their desire for some sort of eye for an eye revenge.
Right now, Im sorry, but have to say I`m finding it very difficult to distinguish between the terrorists and the targets. You both want to kill the other for the sake of a higher ideal, one calls themselves patriots the other calls themselves martyrs. The difference is largely semantic in my eyes, Im afraid - both sides think the other is a clear and present threat to the continuation of their way of life.

How did I feel when they blew up Manchester? Not angry, no, not even that sad, I was a bit pissed that they wrecked the comic store. Nobody I knew got hurt, I wasnt hurt. Life went on.
I introduced the Irish thing simply as an example that the US people are not the first and only people to have experienced terrorism. In fact you are the last. You should be trying to come to terms with something that the rest of the world takes as a given possibility on every day of their lives.

I feel that myself and Duke and Duel, the ones I have noted most but there could well be others, are really attempting to simply take a neutral and reasoned stance in the face of a wider reaction that is entirely emotional - and this is being misinterpreted as hostility or not caring. I`m afraid I didnt cry when I heard that loads of people died, that just doesnt touch me in that way.
I still care, but what I care about is that the outcome of this is positive. Far more people have lost their lives because this DIDNT happen thirty years ago than lost their lives on Tuesday, and far more people will die in the future if the correct responses are not made.

Im actually very hopeful that the 9.11.01 will come to be seen as one of the greatest days in history, because it was the day when world politics changed irrevocably for the better. Somehow I fear that the response of the Gung-Ho, 'shoot first, check if they were guilty later' Bush administration might not be quite such a legacy for future generations.
 
A

Apollo

Guest
DUke: I'm not advocating war. By no means. I just want whoever is responsible captured and dealt with. The less loss of life, the better.

What I was railing against was this attitude from Gizmo that this was the result of our actions. That we brought this on ourselves. Because for the most part, we have tried to help, to do what's right. It hasn't necessarily turned out the best, but somehow people like him have missed the good intentions at the heart of what we do. There were no good intentions behind this attack. None whatsoever.

I think what Zadok said can sum up my attitude very well--I stand for justice, not for war. The terrorists must be apprehended, but at the minimum loss of life possible.

They really came to your door? I too find that insulting. I would just say that it's the acts of a panicked nation, rather than a general stereotype.
 
G

Gizmo

Guest
It tends to be the case that the US tends to only act with the best of intentions when it has something to gain. The nature of the lobbying power blocks in the government means that it is very rare indeed for the US to do the right thing when it hasnt got a lot to gain by so doing.
example:
Nobody outside the US believes the Gulf War was about anything other than oil.

Do I think you brought it on yourselves? Yes you did, US foreign policy has consistently provoked the arab people over the past thirty years, and many of those people feel they have no way of making that situation change without recourse to violence. I am not justifying the act of terrorism, ever, but you cannot ignore that it IS a result of US policies. If those policies dont change, if all you do is find and deal with (in whatever way) the people that did this, then in ten/twenty years time it will happen all over again.
I fear the US response to this will be purely symptomatic, and not a lasting cure.

Dont think that 'if we act strongly they wont do it again'. Thats a nonsense - these people are desperate enough to commit suicide to hurt you. The thought that you responded strongly last time is not even going to be a consideration.
They are casting Kaerveks Spite, and dont care that you win that game, BECAUSE ITS ALL THEY CAN DO.
 
D

Duel

Guest
You know, I keep expecting them to say they have evidence Osama Bin Laden has fled to kruwait, and is being harbored there, so we must take over the oil field portion of the country and look for him......

right, Gizmo. If they're dying for their cause, they have nothing to lose. Attacking them won't affect anything. Suicide bombers aren't too scared of the firing squad.....
 
U

Ura

Guest
I'm not taking it as a flame zadok and I certainly hope you aren't either. As you are doing I'm expressing my views on it, and yes, we do have very distinct and differing opinions about this.

I still think that there are great differences between being a patriot and a zealot. Yes on both counts they are fighting for what they believe to be right, but one does it with discretion and in retaliation, not blindly at the most populous areas possible and not simply for existing. When the role is reversed and its us attacking we're doing it in retaliation to defend ourselves on their soil. The only difference between crashing a jet liner into a skyscraper and launching missles at targets is that missles don't often have 90+ innocent people riding them to their deaths. This is a situation often refered to as "total war" which means civilian targets are fair game and has the mentality of "kill them all, let god sort them out." The last time that was invoked by anyone was Hitler during WWII when the Nazi's were invading Leningrad. As far as I know the US has never declared a situation of total war at all during the 5 times in its history its officially declared war on someone.

I don't advocate war anymore then you do, believe me I've seen enough places that were war zone class disasters when I was working with S.A.R. to last me a life time and some of the images of suffering and death are comparable to what Duke has seen in his home country I'm sure.
But the fact is that there is no definable justice for this type if situation. You think you can catch the culprits and arrest them, perhaps bring them before an international tribunal where they'll get locked away into their own personal prison so that the frenzy of followers can try and break them out. We'd end up spending more resources protecting the SOB just so we could keep him behind bars. The international courts don't support capital punishment from what I understand.
I don't want to see a war come from this, but I simply don't think there is another reliable alternative to a military solution. The idea of commando strikes someone mentioned is a better one then all out war, but you have to know where the target is first to do that, the american public for the most part isn't giving the government that luxery of time.
On top of this comes the question of what if, just say if, a country is proven to have sponsored this. How do you bring an entire country to justice? Sanctions won't do anything, they haven't in the past. Look at Cuba, they're doing fairly well despite the US hatred for them.

The simple fact is that there is NO correct solution here. Military actions will just go back and forth till the US has wiped them from the face of the earth, I doubt it would go the other way, and the idea of justice is unfathomable on this scale as to what any kind of punishment can be used. Its simply never been heard of before as this level of destruction is what happens in wars, not typical crimes that can be handled by any justice system.

As long as there are dissagreements in the world about anything that raises the feeling of desparation in people the possibility of terrorism is always going to exist. It doesn't matter what the US foreign policy is, or what the UN does, or if muslims and jews in the middle east ever decide to get along with each other. The threat is always going to be there for any number of reasons and we'll never know until its to late most of the time.
 
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Zadok001

Guest
You're right - There isn't a correct solution in the world right now. Not a one. :(

"Missles don't often have 90+ innocent people riding them to their deaths."

What difference does it make whether the missles have innocents on them or are hitting the innocents directly? Neither is acceptable right now, or ever.

Zealots or patriots? It's all the same. One is negative, the other is positive. One has a defensive connotation, but it is still used to make violence seem like a correct solution. If patriots slaughter 15,000 civilians, I'm no happier with them than I am with the zealots who do the same thing. They are the same in mind mind, as they both do the same thing - They kill for their beliefs.

America is willing to kill for it's beliefs. I am not willing to have innocent blood on my hands, so I cannot and will not advocate a war. I will advocate justice, as I have all along. I don't think anyone will disagree with me when I rally a call for justice.

The key is knowing the difference between justice and violence vengeance.

I stand for justice, not for vengeance.
 
D

Duel

Guest
I stand for healing, not for justice.

If I could stop this from ever happening again, I'd let EVERYONE walk free.... Seriously. I'd much rather be happy than right any day. I'd rather not kill those who did it, if I could find a way to stop them from doing it again.
 
D

DÛke

Guest
...I think it's all coming together in a way or another now except. Basically, we all want justice...some want it as noble cause, and some, sadly, want it fast and they want it now, no matter what the outcome is. I'm sorry if you feel that way.

Gizmo is not lying, and isn't just talking. He making facts. I was in Iraq when the Gulf War took place. I know what it's all about. I also know that many, many of you don't know much about it, maybe only what the U.S. wanted you to see...or know. The U.S. has gotten its hands, literarly, put into everything. You might not know, and I know if I have to say everything I know, not many will believe me (except for those who already know...Gizmo, Duel...etc.) and most of you will persume to go on the defensive rather than listen...

You know what? If this situation is treated with violence, more groups will form, and more tragdies will occur. Don't tell me we're going to have "security"...these new groups will be so highly devoted to their cause; even more than those who commited this latest tragedy...and you know what? There is no safe place on Earth when it comes to such groups...I swear to god, if they're too pissed off, and wish to blow every single block in the United States, they will. There's no protection; ever. If you know your history and religion, you'd see, however, that all Muslims are very loving and caring for life, and not me, but history itself proves that Islam, out of all religions, has been the most tolerate of everyone's actions...you must try to think why such groups did this crime...what was the cause that they were fighting for so devotedly? It's more than just a religous act, killing people, and getting attention...

The best part, now it seems to me that more people are wanting justice than revenge. That's the real way to go. Kill, murder, do whatever you want...to the criminals...and never ever touch any life that goes beyond that. That's my whole point. You don't fight wrong with wrong; war is wrong. If the U.S. goes to war, I really will want everyone to deeply pray to live at least another 30-40 years for the U.S. will be re-attacked by more angred and devoted people...and next time, it just may be you and your family that're effected...
 
D

Daggertooth

Guest
The thing that must happen is some sort of millitary strike. If war is nessisary to quench our rage than so be it. Vengence and Justice can be the same thing. Crush those who would kill themselves for their Ideals. Kill them so they will never kill again.

*sigh* :(
Hopefully time will ease the pain. The anger and the hatread. The calls for war and Genocide. Something must be done, but what has yet to be seen. War begets war, doing Nothing means that they have won, and missle launches have never done much good. In the end it wont be the right thing that we do, I don't think there is any response that would be right, It will be that which we feel is the lesser evil.


Do I really advocate What I said at first? No, not really, but at times while I watch the TV over and over again I want it to happen. The tears soak my eyes and I yell "Kill them All" Then I calm down and try to think of the better solution. As was said by many officials before "revenge is a dish best served cold." If we go Galloping to war still strongly under the influence of what happened then I fear we will have another Carthage. And that would be tragic.


Do I want Justice? Yes. Do I want Vengence? Yes. Do I want revenge? Yes. Can I get all three? Perhaps, Perhaps not. In the end only justice will really matter. If anything matters at all.

Daggertooth
 
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