Discussion in 'Current Events' started by Duel, Sep 11, 2001.

  1. Lotus Mox New Member

    Well, during the Kosovo conflict a secret paper leaked out of a Secret Service (I beleive the German), which said that they funded the UCK albanian rebels with weapons. (and this was shown in the official news in the national TV program, not some yellow paper)

    I wouldn't be too surprised if the US did similar things for the Irish.

  2. jcredberry Gochan Warlord

    It's sad but it's true... American secret services have been doing it for decades... That's te main reason why the USA are the biggest power on earth... But what they can't see they can't fight... That's the guerilla way of fighting and a full scale war for the US will only fuel an joint action by all the fanatics in the world...

    You really can't be so blind... Your loved democracy gives you the power to ellect people for office, but what they do inside that office is totally out of your control...

    The strong arm of the USA is capable of destroying the economy of a country like Cuba or putting a puppet goverment in a country or sending troops to wipe away the opposition stated by another country... And whitout many of you knowing what's behind the smile of a politician... You have the power and you use it... You better be prepared for the consecuences...

    Most of us live on different democracies around the world, but we're not that blind to believe that we're invulnerable because we don't live in the USA... Again, sad but true...

    Be what you say... Don't start another war in which everybody will loose... Get the justice you seek, but thru the force but thru the truth... And get the truth in your own country... Ask for justice to your government... Be fair to the rest of the world... Be a leader... The third world will that you for that...
  3. Ihsans Shade Blind god of all he sees

    I don't care what you say, the people who did this are human, they are genetically the same as you me, and every other a**hole on this planet. What seperates us from them is their religion, which is usually one that is peaceful, and nothing like what we have seen yesterday. The fact is that these people were corrupted, and decieved into beilieving that this was for the good of Islam, that the United States is purely evil, that we are all a bunch of greedy selfish people who don't care about the world, that because a majority of us are Christian, that we hate Islam. This is simply untrue as we rational people all know. I doubt that there Alah, and the Christian/ Jewish God/Yahweh are the exact same deity. True it is there fault for not being a bit more sceptic, but the main portion of the blame goes to Osama Bin Ladin, for deciving these people.

    I am...
    Ihsan's Shade
  4. rkoelsch Angel Boy

    Nothing justifies Terrorism! :mad:

    The US isn't blameless. We have perpetrated many crimes against humanity. But that still doesn't justify the killing of thousands of innocent lives.

    It would be wonderful if we lived in an idealistic Utopia where everyone worked only to further the human race but we have not evolved that far yet. It is almost cruel. We are able to envision truly beautiful ideas but we are unable to stop killing ourselves at unprecedented rates. Can we take that next evolutionary step and actually pull ourselves out of the mire of hatred and ignorance?

    Who knows maybe the ones who died yesterday were the lucky ones, they no longer have to witness man's inhumanity to man.
  5. jcredberry Gochan Warlord

    Do not believe that my post is in justification of the attacks... But we have to believe in our ideal... We cannot say one thing and do another one... This is what fuels the anger inside the fanatic... It's not only a religious thing... Far from that, is the fact on living on such poverty you hate all that rich people have, all that rich people is... And yes, by far, first world countries and specially USA is the target of this hate... Wrong, of course, but if you just live in one of the third world countries for a year you will know what I say... Hate is the wrong path and we cannot seek blood for blood... We have to seek justice and that will be the way out of this darkness... If the USA uses all their power to wipe out a group of terrorists and the country that supports them, you're only feeding another angry head of this Hydra...

    Please rkoelsch, you are not a kid and you seem to believe that your military experience was not a good one... Let this kids know the truth about war... Let them know there'll be no relief after you have your ear made knecklace... After all the dust have settled you will feel a deeper sadness in your heart...

    We need leaders, not bullies...
  6. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Too many threads about this!

    EricBess and Tomb have said it best in this thread that mirrors my opinion and what I said in another thread. Don't blindly blame a whole country, find out who's responsible, and get them.

    Again, to Gimzo and apparently DUke, whose post I haven't read yet in Off-Topic, I can't see how the US "deserves" such acts against it. I frankly can't see why ANY country "deserves" such terrorist acts against them, past included. Terrorists are the group that take the "easy" way out to try to "fight" for their ideals and for the most part, attract those individual who can't control their basic animal urge to commit violence. The leaders may have had higher aspirations, but the "grunts" are no better than any murderer; the only difference is that they're organized and have more of a support network.

    Oh yeah, Rando, thanks for the concern. I was on briefly yesterday when it happened but as I said, I work at Social Security and while I thought it wouldn't be a target, my wife wanted me home just in case :)
  7. Gizmo Composite: 1860

    "The Americans have been paying the Irish to kill the British for 30 years "

    Griffith wrote:
    Its not a belief, its a fact. Hard proof, that sort of thing. Leading members of Sinn Fein and IRA come to America to raise funds from wealthy Irish American backers so they can buy weapons. I dont think at any point that governments are involved, but the simple truth is that american people have been paying irish people to kill british people.

    I was no more than 200 yards from the largest bomb ever detonated on British shores, which destroyed two and a half square miles of central Manchester shopping district.
  8. TomB Administrative Assistant

    Where should I begin...

    jcredberry, Lotus Mox, Gizmo, DÛke: As far as I'm concerned, you're anti-American inflammatory commentary in a thread like this is as bad as those Palestinian pricks dancing in the streets yesterday.

    And saying that you were brainwashed, or that it is a religious thing, or that America deserved it because private Irish-American citizens choose to support the Irish in Northern Ireland, or, what was DÛke's reason again? It's highly political? What the hell is that supposed to mean? What did those people at work in the WTC, or on the planes, have to do with politics in Afghanistan?

    None of those "reasons" is good enough for me. This country is still dealing with the reality of what happened yesterday. Does this make us weak DÛke? Because we've never had to deal with terrorism on this scale before, and we're a little sensitive right now?

    Well, I've got news for you pal - spout that anti-American BS you've been handing us at your local supermarket, or tavern, and see just how far you get with it. But you know better than that - that's why you say it here, where no one knows where you live.

    Isn't the Internet wonderful.

    linsivvi: The difference here is that we were already at war with Japan when the bombs were dropped. I'm not saying they were expecting something of that magnitude, but at least they were on alert, and in a war that sort of thing happens. More people were actually killed in the bombing of Tokyo, if I remember right (and no, I don't have the figures), than were killed with the nukes.

    Duel: I think you're being monumentally naive when you talk about bringing these people to trial. Any World court would neccessarily be comprised of elements from many nations, all with their own personal political agendas.

    There's no such thing as "proof", where justice will take a back seat to politics.

    Oh, and I don't agree with you on the "animals" issue either. I think people like these terrorists are animals who should be penned up and ultimately destroyed. I also think that people in this country who rape and murder other people are animals who should be put away and/or destroyed, so it's not a racist/nationalist issue.

    I think a man is defined by his actions. I think these people proved their inhumanity when they killed all those people, and, as such, are nothing more than rabid animals that need to be destroyed.

    Deal with it.
  9. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    "Deserves" is such a funny word, isn't it? Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony.....

    It's.... appropriate, for the US to be hit in this matter. All over Europe, not just in Afghanistan or Palestine, children cheered. These are people who have only seen america across the barrel of a gun. They think we're animals the same way we call them animals right now, because we've been doing this same thing to them. US has been funding wars and bombing civilian targets for years. Don't believe me? Look what NATO is doing in Yugoslavia as we speak.

    Deserved? Never. They didn't deserve to die. My friend's cousin was killed when he was in an office building, hit by a NATO attack. he didn't deserve to die either. And, you know what I think? I think the majority of the people in afghanistan or isreal or WHEREVER these terrorists were from, don't deserve to die.

    Vengeance is the problem. Vengeance is what they used as an excuse to hit the WTC, revenge for the suffering afflicted on their people, and do not doubt that their WAS suffering inflicted on them, even of a smaller magnitude. And now we'll kill more of them than they killed of us as revenge. Escalating a conflict anyone?

    Gizmo's right. We (america) have grown strong and idle. Congrats. We haven't EVER been attacked on our own territory. We've been defended against. For the first time, someone has hit us. Israel lives with the fear that this will happen every day. But... It's not deserved.

    Lastly, Cowards? I'm sorry, how is what they did cowardly? Sick, twisted, evil, sure. But how is it cowardly? I mean, more than what America does every day?
  10. arhar Member

    Yes, it's a fact. :rolleyes: If it was a fact, it's be known to everybody, not just conspiracy theorists like you.
  11. Rando Freaky Bear

    #1 We haven't been attacked on our own soil?!?

    WTC bombing of 1993

    War of 1812

    Atlanta Bombings

    Oklahoma City Bombing

    The entire Civil War

    ...would you like to rethink that?

    #2 Gizmo is right in a sense. The IRA did have supporters and sypathizers in the U.S. with slush-funds. All assets should have been frozen by now.

    #3 Israel not deserving any attacks.
    Israel anexed an entire country and now refuses to give back any lands. I would think that they would be MORE deserving.

  12. Slick New Member

    Did anyone notice that the date was 911?
  13. DÛke Memento Mori

    ...ok, let me put everything to the light.

    Here's what I think: the U.S. didn't really "deserve" what has happened. MARK my words: NO innocent human deserves what has's in its fate. You think after all this meddling with other governments and countries...everyone would just shut up? Sorry, but do you think nobody has the guts to actually do such crimes? There're all kind of people in the world.

    HOW can I explain what I feel without sounding anti-American? I don't think I can...because I AM talking to Americans that don't try to HEAR me out, rather USE my words as yet another (stupid) reason as to why the U.S. didn't deserve it.<<---isn't that what I've been saying all the time? Didn't I say many times before, for 5 hours yesterday, I COULDN'T EVEN think...I was speechless infront of the TV...between sadness and anger...and EVEN fear that war might strike? I worried about my friends over the world that might die!!! Is that inhumane?

    PLEASE try to listen to me...ask yourself THIS simple question: DO YOU GIVE A DAMN about ALL innocent lives, or just American innocent lives? I hope you answer the later. If you care about all innocent lives...than why haven't you cared about the innocent lives that died in the Middle East in all the past wars? WHY don't you care and listen to me when I'm telling you I LOST cousins and friends BECAUSE of these wars...they were just normal people with flesh and bone...all innocent...they just died...just carelessly like what happend here in the U.S.. Believe me, out of EVERYONE in these message boards, I KNOW exactly how everyone is feeling, because I felt it many times how could you even dare tell me to "shut up" (Almindhra) when I'm WITH you on this issue, but against the violence that might occur, which WILL destroy even more relatives of mine...more friends across the world, and countless of innocent lives. If you lived outside the U.S., and have heard about the tragedy, and you have relatives who died in would you feel? SEE, I HAVE felt that feeling before...and I truely FEAR that I may feel it you understand the nightmares I've had...the many sleepless nights? I hope you do...and I'm feeling this sorrow too...but see...I KNOW better than to say "nuke them all"...or whatever...there are innocent people out there just like you and me that, right NOW, are fearing they might die. Don't you care about THEM? THEY have nothing to do with it too...they're just normal people with normal daily lives and jobs...why do you ONLY care about those in the U.S.? Either care about EVERYONE or not care at all...otherwise, you're a bloody racist without question. I've cared and cared before...about EVERYONE...I got some tears watching the tears yesterday...I felt so connected to these people also brought all these memories from my past...from ALL of you, I assure you, I relate to this tragedy more than you ever will.

    For some reason, some of you have the wrong idea of me being anti-American...I honestly don't know how you arrive at these conclusions, but it hurts me to see remarks (those of Almindhra's, for example)...I'm not anti-American, I AM, however, anti-war...does that help justify my words better? I hope it does, because I'm getting really sick and tired being generalized like this...everywhere...I'm a freakin' Arabian Muslim LIVING in the U.S. and I'm telling you, I LOVE it...and I wouldn't trade it for the rest of the world...but again, I WILL NOT tolerate violence or vengence...I know it's only natural, so I'm NOT blaming anyone for reacting this hastly, but I DO hope that you all would calm down...and AT LEAST NOT think of wars or such...becasuse THAT will bring more innocent lives to death...and WE all know how hard that can be on humanity...

    I HATE over explaining must be the 10th time I post about the same subject...please read all my posts before classifying me as ANYTHING...I truely think you'll see it my way once you just open up your minds, and think on a universal scale rather than just about America itself. We're all people of one should die because of another...let's NOT allow that to happen again, NOT go MAKE it happen ourselves via revenge and madness...
  14. Daggertooth The Rune Master

    This is a small group of people that don't represent the hole. It should in no way reflect on the religion or the people as a whole Regardless of who they really are and where they are from.

    errr....At least thats what I keep telling myself. Over and over again. "This was a small group.......Only the terrorists should be found and destroyed." Over and over, again and again and again. It's hard to keep myself consentrated on the truth, to not let hate consume me while I'm in this blood thirsty rage. I hate the people who did this. And the Justice... No vengence I seek is death. But only to those who diserve it......only to those......only to those.

    ......only to those......only to those.....only to those........ :(
  15. Griffith_se Queen of the Sub-Optimal

    OK, some American People not America, glad you cleared that up.
    You sort of insinuate that the United States of America supports terrorism against the English.

    And how many died, zero?
    How did it make you feel, angry?

    Do you recall any of your words, not rational, not words of peace I'll bet. You, being witness to a terrorist attack should be a little more understanding I would think.

    Can you understand the reactions of Americans?
    The death toll will be in the tens of thousands, billions in damage. Great Britain has never seen anything even remotely close to this magnitude of terrorism, in fact the world hasn't.

    Try to understand People's reactions are emotional, try to understand that anger is part of the grieving process.

    I think you're basically a nice person, I think we all ultimately want the same thing.

    Why must you taunt people expressing their pain, lashing out with angry words. There just words, they don't hurt anyone. You've chastised people in pain because of their angry words more that you've denounced the act itself.
    You seem to have more anger toward America, than the terrorists that commited these horrible acts.
    I really don't understand why you appear to be more angry at good people that are just venting steam.
    I must be misunderstanding you I hope.
  16. EricBess Active Member

    I applaud Daggertooth for his post. Should we be angry about what happened? Of course we should. Is there one person here who disagrees with that?

    I applaud Daggertooth because he has enough honesty to admit that he is human and he is angry. He is also honest enough to admit that it is hard for him to keep that anger from applying itself to a larger group of people than it should.

    It is human nature to want to lash out. I think that deep down we all want the same thing here. We are all frightened that this sort of thing could happen and we want to do something to keep it from happening again.

    In general terms, is there anyone who disagrees with me? I don't think so.

    The only thing we seem to differ in is how to go about it. Again, I applaud Daggertooth for realizing that his human nature to get angry at a group must stand down to his common sense.

    We're all on the same side here people. Let's find out who did this and stop them from doing it again. But first and foremost, let's find out who did this.

    And remember, the goal is to try to protect all inocent life, not just those who happen to reside on American soil.

    And people, listen to what Duke has to say. The overall picture and not just his shorter summary posts. He's been through this and so has arhar. They are on our side too, but we need to be rational enough to see what they are saying.
  17. Ransac CPA Trash Man

    One man is in custody. No names have been released.

    A rental car, believed to have been used by the hijackers, has been confiscated from the airport in Boston. Commericial Flight manuals in Arabic were found.

    Note: I am still not pointing the blame towards anyone. But, the number of people that could've done this has decreased in my mind.

    Ransac, cpa trash man
  18. jcredberry Gochan Warlord

    Everybody need to be like Daggertooth... You have to put justice before vengeance... If you fail this ideal you will be no better than the terrorist... Don't call me anti-american, because all I keep telling you guys is a different truth you haven't experienced yet... The people at the WTC didn't deserved what happened to them but the people at so many nations attacked by you armed forces didn't deserved it either... You guys, have come a long way since the Theodore Roosevelt days when he thought he could have the world by just punching and kicking countries and governments... That's how you landed Guam, Cuba and the Phillipines... Right now you just sell your way of life and make it easier to conquer another country and culture... I don't get opposed to that, but a lot of fundamentalists around the world think this is indeed the work of the devil... And a lot of communists look at it as a corrupted, clasist and discriminatory way of life... And they have their beliefs so deep in their souls they give their lifes to fight your culture... And some crazy guy hijacks a plane and crash it to the WTC...

    You just have to get in touch with the world your diplomatics see... Is a hate filled world where the big country bullies the little one... You're the kings of the world and you should do no obstentation with it... You should lead not bully...

    Remember, you and I live in democracies and we like it so bad we would give our lifes to protect them... Democracy means the power of the people... There's far more poor people around the world that rich one... Even in my country the minimun wage is of about US$ 192 a month... And most people will not earn that kind of money... And about 80% of my people lives in poverty... And Venezuela is a "rich" country were we have lots of oil, aluminum and iron... But the real rich countries have the power at all levels and do horrible things with it...

    I don't know, but you guys are very naive, sitting on your desks without fear of anything on you minds... In my country, we have been at a state of war for the past decade, with about 100 killings each weekend... That's what poverty does to a country... I can totally understand DÛke's thoughts, because we live with violence every day...

    I feel grief for all the people killed at the WTC, but you should not take the a war path that will only affect more poor people in the world... More poor people dying for nothing... Even your poor people who will be drafted for this war... And will return with a sick mind... Sick of all the killing, all the horror of a war... And you have just made your new generation of Tim McVeigh...

    You should seek justice not revenge...

    NO WAR!!!
  19. Ihsans Shade Blind god of all he sees

    well, from the begining, people have thought that it was bin Laden. Everything I've heard today points to him to, so I think its only a matter of time before the feds say that bin Laden is the main suspect.

    But that is just my opinion.

    I am...
    Ihsan's Shade
  20. Rando Freaky Bear

    We make war that we may live in peace.
    .................................................................- Aristotle

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