What's the deal with 7th?

Discussion in 'General CPA Stuff' started by Whimsical, Mar 7, 2001.

  1. Zadok001 CPA Founder, Greater Good

    Analysis of game 6:

    Again, these are CLOSE games. Isty.dec couldn't put on pressure right away, but pulled out some later. Unfortunately, Saproling Burst is to no end destructive. It holds off attacks and attacks all at once, acting like the Morphling of Fires.

    Btw, guys, my playtest results usually go to 15 games if I'm not just trying to perfect a matchup, so I'm gonna be at this for a while. :) If you'd like me to stop, do tell me so!

    Game 7:

    Llanowar goes down, Isty.dec responds with a Duress, taking Idol. Unfortunately, that leaves a Fires. Fires hits on turn 2. Spineless Thug hits, but it's no match for the 'Derm that hits on the next turn, and attacks. Isty.dec takes 5. A Rats eats a land, and the Thug deals 2 damage on its attack. The Derm heads over again, and gets blocked by the Rats. (15-18, Fires.) Fires Ports Isty.dec, keeping Isty at 3 mana again. The Thug can't attack through the Llanowar/Fires combination, so it holds back. Fires plays Port #2, and attacks with the Derm. Ports keep Isty.dec on 3 mana, and Maggot Carrier goes through. Again, the Llanowar stalls the Thug, and Isty.dec passes the turn. Fires plays 'Derm #2, and beats down with both. Maggot Carrier takes one (or five) for the team, and Isty.dec drops to 4 life. The 'Derm reduces Fires to having only three mana, so only one land is Ported, leaving Isty.dec with 5 mana as another land is played. This is one short of the Corrupt needed, so Isty.dec can do nothing but play a Specter and die to Derms.

    Analysis: Perhaps Isty.dec should play more land? While most of the deck runs on a very low mana curve, the Corrupts don't fit the curve and require ~turn 13 before they become playable (20 cards into the deck, ~1/3 land, that's just under 6 land at turn 13). Admittably, Isty.dec had a chance if the second Derm hadn't arrived, but then the next card won the game anyways.

    Game 8 vs. Fires:

    No 1cc plays on either side. Fires has no second turn either, but Isty.dec has a Foul Imp. An Idol is Fire's third turn, and a Ravenous Rats (eating a land)/Flies is turn 3 for Isty. The Imp serves, evening the score at 18-18. Jade Leech hits the board on turn 4, and the Idol turns sideways. (18-15, Fires.) Isty.dec plays a second Imp, pumps the Flies, and hits for 4. Fires Assaults both Imps, taking 1 from a painland in the process, and serves for a massive 8 damage. A Rats chumps the Leech, and the scores go to 13-10, Fires. Isty.dec makes the Flies go Sinister, and Fires takes 5, making it 8-10. Fires pas the extra mana for a Burst, and serves for 8, to 8-2. Isty.dec doesn't draw the Ritual needed to Corrupt for the kill, and dies to crazed Saprolings, Leeches, and Idols.

    Analysis: Again with the "If I had Corrupted" problem. It doesn't fit the mana curve, but it's there, and it can win games if it only got played. Six mana is a LOT, but it's a sledgehammer of a card. This was a VERY slow hand for Fires, lacking mana acceleration, but the pair of Assaults were the key, locking the race in Fire's favor.

    Game 9 vs. Fires:

    Fires starts strong with a Port. Isty.dec keeps a mana-heavy hand with a Corrupt, and plays land #1. Port locks it down, and land #2 goes down. That land produces a Maggot Carrier. Fires raises the ante with an Idol. That's enough of an opening for Isty.dec to play Foul Imp AND Unholy Strength, taking it out of single Assault range. Blastoderm matches the Imp, and the Idol serves. Isty.dec takes three, reserving the Carrier to block the 'Derm next turn. The Imp comes over for 4, making the scores 15-14 Fires. A Ravenous Rats eats a Burst. Fires drops land #5 and the OTHER Burst, then attacks for eight. The Rats gets chewed on by a 'Derm, and Isty.dec takes 3 again. 15-11, Fires. Isty.dec drops another Imp, and serves with the big one, making it 11-9, Fires. Fires Assaults the new Imp, then plays a Leech and attacks with 2 4/4 Saprolings, a Derm, and an Idol. The 'Derm is blocked, but the remaining 11 damage kills Isty.dec again.

    Analysis: Not a strong hand for Isty. Again, the Corrupt was in-hand, but doing nothing because of its casting cost. Foul Imp is by far the strongest creature against Fires, once Unholied, it's VERY tough to kill. The best cards Isty.dec has presented thus far are the Imps, the Flies, and the two Strengths. Going to four of each of those may make for a stronger deck.

    Continued later unless someone tells me to quit.
  2. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Who's playing each deck? Just so we get some credentials... :D
  3. Lotus Mox New Member

    Here's a slightly improved and mercenaried (is that a word?) version of Isty's deck:

    2 Phyrexian Battleflies
    4 Cateran Persuader
    4 Spineless Thug
    3 Rampart Crawler
    4 Foul Imp
    4 Rathi Intimidator
    3 Dark Triumph
    4 Unholy Strength
    4 Duress
    2 Vicious Hunger
    3 Snuff Out
    4 Dark Ritual
    19 Swamp

    I removed most of the discard aspect of Isty's deck and replaced some creatures with a Mercenary Chain, to provide chump-blockers while you attack with your evasion creatures.

    I replaced following cards with IMO superior cards:
    Vicious Hunger for Currupt
    Rathi Intimidator for Razortooth Rats
    Dark Triumph for Nocturnal Raid

  4. Gizmo Composite: 1860

    Good work Zad, although at 9-0, I think we can see the theme emerging. isty.dec sucks like a sailor who`s been at sea for too long.

    Is Foul Imp in 7th? Wow, cool - he`s a good card. Still won`t beat Fires ever, though. Esp not if they put Flametongues in, which I don`t recall seeing in the Fires builds Zad was playing with.

    (Gizmo skips back a page)

    YIKES that deck is terrible! At least put some effort in for God`s sake, Isty!

    1 Molting Harpy
    4 Maggot Carrier
    4 Spineless Thug
    3 Cateran Persuader
    4 Foul Imp
    4 Chimeric Idol
    3 Phyrexian Scuta

    4 Duress
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Unholy Strength
    3 Snuff Out
    2 Dark Triumph

    4 Peat Bog (eww - dodgy as hell)
    16 Swamp

    4 Addle
    4 Plague Spitter
    3 Persecute
    3 Terror
    1 Snuff Out

    There is no excuse for using absolutely terrible cards like Corrupt and Nocturnal Raid (Razertooth Rats!?!?) whilst ignoring total beating sticks like Chimeric Idol and Phyrexian Scuta...

    I think gizmo.dec might get the same 9-0 record as isty.dec did, because it`ll be trying to use Swamps against a tournament deck. But it`ll probably come closer to winning a game here or there. Might have excessive amounts of lifeloss in - 3 Scuta + 4 Imp + 3 Snuff - probably poor in the race vs Fires.
  5. Zadok001 CPA Founder, Greater Good

    Zvi's version of Fires played by a friend of mine that no one here knows. :) And Isty.dec played by yours truly. I will admit to a few play errors on both sides, but I think it was fairly balanced back and forth - For example, if you caught it, there's a Thug blocking in one of those stories. :) We didn't notice at the time.

    Isty had the right idea - Fast beatdown may have a chance. The trick is two-fold:

    1. Play fliers and make them big.
    2. Get rid of dragons and stall the ground with chumps.

    It's also 8-1, not 9-0. Isty.dec has a win in there thanks to a Flies coming over for 6 and 7 or something like that. :) The deck needs tuning, no doubt, and probably some major changes, but it may be good enough to beat Fires to some extent. We'll deal with Story Circle later.

    I have to say, Spineless Thug takes the cake as the WORST beast in that deck. It's a mess - Weak on offense, taking up a good two mana slot, and unable to stall the ground. I'd just flat out drop those things. Ravenous Rats really did some serious damage, that would be my replacement of choice.

    Also, is Dark Triumph better than Sinister Strength? I wouldn't think so... I mean, the ideal way to be Fires (from what I've seen, with this strategy) is to go to the head with fliers. The ground creatures simply do NOT kill Blastoderm, regardless of pump effects and numbers. They're blockers. The Imps rule the skies, with the Flies doing some damage as well. Intimidators might work.

    Just throwing out ideas. More results to follow eventually... :)
  6. Istanbul Sucker MCs call me sire.

    I would like to reiterate: I am shooting for a deck that will still be legal in November. This means NO Mercadian-block cards. Yes, I realize that this means that I'm running on three sets total (7th, Invasion, Planeshift) thus far, but I want you to realize something...

    ...in the above playtests, the deck I made held its own fairly frequently. It didn't quite win half the time against a fully-developed, playtested-to-death deck with twice the card pool, but it DID win sometimes. Now, picture this deck after Apocalypse and Odyssey comes out, once Blastoderm and Saproling Burst are no longer an issue.

    I think the reason this deck looks so bad to you is that I'm working towards a different goal than you are.
  7. Lotus Mox New Member

    I don't want to spoil the fun Isty, but Dark Ritual isn't likely to be in either 7th or Odyssey, so your post-masques black deck can't use it.
  8. Apollo Bird Boy

    First off, Isty, I never attacked you. I repeatedly attacked the deck, but not you. I respect you as a deckbuilder and a person, but I just happen think this is a subpar deck (to put it much nicer than Gizmo.:) That's all.

    Second, you did repeatedly talk about how you could handle Fires.

    Even your example game uses Blasty... you're changing your environment on us now. Especially since your deck is illegal once Masques goes out...

    Third, I did miss your other fliers. You specifically referenced the Flies, and I did not think to check for others. My mistake.:)

    And finally, thank you so much, Zadok. Without playtesting, all we can do is throw words back and forth. What we needed was cold, hard, data. Please, do finish.
  9. Istanbul Sucker MCs call me sire.

    Apollo, the WAY you said what you said was snide, rude, and generally unfriendly.

    I also accounted for the fact that this deck might well gain something from Apocalypse, hence my example of the Blasty. Since I lack the ability to see into the future, I can't say what the next two sets will bring for Fires, so all I can do is test against what I already have.

    (Oh, and don't worry about being more friendly than Gizmo; I'm fairly sure it's impossible NOT to be more friendly than Gizmo towards me.)

    ...y'know, I just realized...WOW, are we off-topic!

    To get back on topic...Lotus Mox, WotC simply said that they wouldn't be reprinting Dark Ritual in the BASIC sets. They specifically said it would be reprinted in the 'expert level sets' (read: expansions), so I'm predicting its return in Odyssey. I suspect they simply didn't print it in Invasion because they realized that a slot wasn't needed for it; they only have to print Ritual every *other* standalone for it to stay T2 legal.
  10. Zadok001 CPA Founder, Greater Good

    Whoops. :)

    Sorry, Isty, I TOTALLY missed your reference to your deck being sans Mercadian Masques... Slops for me. That makes more sense now - It seemed like you'd missed some obvious choices, I must say! Now I understand. Kinda invalidates all those playtesting results, but oh, well...
  11. Cateran Emperor Passed On

    Hoo, I missed on that one there too Isty. Okay then, I'm not being very fair in my analysis then.

    Back on topic and away from flames, when did WotC say Ritual would continue to be reprinted in expert sets? If so, then HOORAY! Black can still crawl out of its grave. With Blastoderm and the other MM Block unintentional Black hate, then perhaps your deck concept could work (not quite the way I'd build it, but still not as bad as Gizmo *always* makes a deck out to be :p )

    Foul Imp rules. Dunno how that one skipped my mind.
  12. Istanbul Sucker MCs call me sire.

    Cateran Emperor, Zadok - Ain't no thang. It's an easy factoid to miss.

    Cat - They said it when they revealed that Ritual wouldn't be in 6th...specifically said that they'd continue to reprint Ritual in expert sets, but no longer in basic sets. How would you do my deck differently? It's a difficult task, deckbuilding with three sets, but I know there are other ideas than mine.

    Oh, and don't worry about how Gizmo reacts. In my experience, he thinks there are three kinds of decks: netdecks, his creations, and bad decks. :)
  13. Zadok001 CPA Founder, Greater Good

    I have to say, I question Ritual ever being reprinted - Take into account the fact that WotC has never reprinted a card banned in ANY DCI legal format, and it looks a bit unlikely...
  14. Istanbul Sucker MCs call me sire.

    Well, they specifically said they would...then they banned it in Extended.

    Guess we'll just have to wait and see, but if they DO lose Ritual from T2, black had bloody well better get some AMAZING stuff to counteract the fact that mono-black looks at enchantment and artifacts and just goes, 'Help!'.
  15. Gizmo Composite: 1860

    It`s cos your decks are mostly extremely bad.
    I just call a spade a spade.
  16. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    I have to agree with Zadok; I remember it being said that Ritual will not be in basic sets any more but I DON'T remember it being said that it will be reprinted in expansions. I think because it was in Urza's or whatever at the time that people assumed it would be (because they said "why is everyone crying? DR is in Urza's/whatever so we can still use it in Standard" but I don't think WOTC made that a written policy.

    Someone can be nice and prove us wrong though ;)
  17. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    Yes, do. Prove use wrong

    Assuming you're playing sans masques and with 7th, Ritual would have to go out of the deck, Isty, and without that extra burst of speed, there are much better decks to play.
  18. Istanbul Sucker MCs call me sire.

    *chuckle* Gizmo, you honestly have NO idea what you're talking about.
    I'm sorry, but your arrogance really has affected your thinking processes.
    You'll excuse me if I simply ignore what you say...
  19. Istanbul Sucker MCs call me sire.

    You're absolutely correct. Currently, at this very moment in time, there are much better decks to play. Of course, at this very moment in time, Masques block is in Type 2, 7th isn't even out, and Apocalypse hasn't been released. You're judging this deck on an unfair scale.
  20. Gizmo Composite: 1860

    Oh, he`s seen through me at last. I was very lucky when I qualified for the tour, and designed a GP-winning deck, and took 24th at my only other GP event, I completely stumbled onto the dominant IBC archetype by accident, and was barely coherent when I co-designed CounterSliver, Cradle/Rebels, and the recent extended Pox decks! And the only reason I was invited to write strategy articles for the Sideboard is because I`d be there purely for comedic value. And my DCI ranking was bought by bribing all of my opponents into losing. I`ve never won a game of Magic in my life, let alone a tournament. In six years of being there or there abouts in tournaments I have never learnt a single useful piece of strategy or deckbuilding knowledge.

    I`m not being personal - aw, who am I trying to kid, your personality drives me mental, you`re pretty much the first person I`ve ever disliked who wasn`t shagging my girlfriend! Your decks stink by and large, but it`s your attitude that goes alongside them that makes it even worse. If Kai Budde came on the CPA and said he thought you were wrong, and provided reasoned arguments why he thought so, as I have tried doing and so did Seth Burn (and several other CPA members), you`d simply ignore the arguments and come back spouting abuse - you`re reknowned for it among the other CPA members, just as I am reknowned for I guess pretty much the same thing, except that I offer actual reasoned arguments, not just rants and unsupported boasts.
    I don`t mind disagreeing with people, in fact I positively thrive on the spirited discussions that can be started by two people with strongly held views, but you never discuss - you just take the time while the other person is speaking (typing?) to think of what you will say next.

    And I would humbly say that, even in the stupendously unrealistic card pool of Inv/PS/7th (a card pool that will never exist, being only about 4/6ths of the November card pool), there are many MANY better decks to play than that heap of terrible black spells, especially when you take the Rituals out.
    ie: Wasn`t Wildfire in 7th? Beatings on high from that card! I`d imagine that a Yawgmoth`s Agenda control deck very similar to the one i`m using in IBC would be the logical

    As for Cateran Emperor. I`ve never had any problem with him. Don`t know why he sudenly hates me - just because I think Black isn`t totally dependent on casting a 3rd turn Plaguelord, I think, and am not willing to attack 7th Edition because it isn`t the expansion it was never going to be (ie. a good one full of old power cards).

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