What's the deal with 7th?

Discussion in 'General CPA Stuff' started by Whimsical, Mar 7, 2001.

  1. Lotus Mox New Member

    AFAIK Greed and Necrologia are both in 7th. :)

    I'm not saying that Greed doesn't suck, but Necrologia should be a decent card with Dark Ritual.
  2. DÛke Memento Mori

    ...yeah...Necrologia isn't bad at all if you look at it in another kind of light...

    ...Let's see, Unmask is a good card, while Mind Swords is below average. Well...Necrologia fills your hand with so much freakin' cards, that the next turn, you could easily pull a Mind Swords and/or Unmask without really caring much for the drawback. Not only that, but you could even "necrologize" when you DON'T have any of these ACC cards in your hand, simply because you would probably DRAW one of them.

    Snuff-Out could be used instantly after a 'Logia (Via ACC), but that might cause too much loss of blood...

    What's wrong with Thrashing Wumpus? It kills a Blastoderm EASILY and it eats Serra Angel...if it can fulfill both of these desires, surely, it is good enough. Provide some Recoils and Hoodwinks for extra security, a bit of reanimation or Yawgmoth's Agenda...and you'll have a solid machine of destruction. Spice things up with Necrologia, Bog Down, and Unmask...and there you go...a recipe to satisfy any taste for diabolism. :)
  3. Baskil CPA Member

    Blastoderm vs Thrashing Wumpus is a losing situation

    Let's say that you don't see a ritual, and Fires lemming over there plays a third turn Blastoderm.
    4th turn, take 5
    5th turn, if you drew, take 5
    6th turn, chump without killing, or lose 2 life.

    Now, with a ritual, assuming he played first
    4th turn take 5
    5th turn take 2, lose wumpus.

    I can see where you think Thrashing Wumpus might be a good card, but you're probably better off playing things like Chilling Apparition, Nightscape Familiar and the like and just slowly ping away between discards.
  4. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    There it was. I knew it would come out eventually. I was surprised that Zadok didn't bring it up.
    The disk
    The golden calf of brother's grimm, black's best pal, now that the skull is gone. The disk is one of the best all around cards available to black. It's the only defense they really have.

    Black control is an oxymoron. Black control consists of topdecking and metagaming. How do you beat replenish? Play with stromgald cabal. Why? Because black cannot kill enchantments. Ever. Not even with Duress. Period. Get the point?

    Black control only works in a creature-based environment, and even then, it needs a way to kill the most powerful spells (Moat, anybody?). Black is not the retarded stepson for the four real colors, black is their welcome mat.
    "Come on in! Step on me! Unless you slip really bad, I'm no danger!"
    Black used to be quick. Black used top be strong. Even with few control elements, blck has the combo and beatdown pieces to be good. No more. Black is now the ultimate one-sided color.
  5. DÛke Memento Mori

    ...Baskil, it's not a lose situation against Blastoderm...believe me.

    I chump block the Blastoderm, and sure, deal 2 damage to ALL players, and ALL creature, killing the Derm, and wiping out all those Elves and Birds. :)

    If one’s deck were "intelligent" enough, the only card one would lose would be the Wumpus, while the opponent would lose Blastoderm, and possibly ALL other creatures. I could activate the Wumpus' ability more than twice you know...which results in the death of many, innocent…creatures...

    ...I would easily "live on" my opponent with cards like Soul Feast and Soul Burn...the opponent...[laughs] can live on the nightmare that I have a Recover or another Thrashing Wumpus in my hand ready to repeat the tragic history. :)
  6. Apollo Bird Boy

    DUke, the Wumpus doesn't do squat to the 'Derm. They play it third turn, and hit you twice before you get out the Wumpus. Then, either you chump the third attack or take 5 more for a total of 15 damage. By the time you can actually use the Wumpus, it doesn't matter anymore cause the 'Derm is about to fade out. And that scenario didn't even include Fires. As for Wumpus vs. Angel, that ain't so hot either (the Angel sure is, though!:)). They'll play Angel 5th turn, then you play Wumpus. They attack with Angel. Then you Wump. All in all, you lose 8 life and you both lose your creatures. That didn't turn out so well, now did it?

    And after all that, you want to use Necrologia? In either situation, you're down to at least 12 (more like 5 with the 'Derm). Using Necrologia for any decent amount is suicide, especially since you're also using Snuff Out.

    As for Soul Feast and Soul Burn, by the time you can actually use them for a decent amount, the game is decided.
  7. Cateran Emperor Passed On

    (sighs) Wherefore art thou Plaguelord? Rebels quiver in their pitiful boots at your presence. Elves and Birds get caught in the crossfire of flung creatures. Skies has nothing over a toughness of 4.

    Yet still, we sit here; apparently you were too good to be in the environment.

    (sighs again) Wherefore are my Dauthi creatures? Quick and shadowy, striking from the sides. Unblockable, and lethal with their Hatred.

    We've returned to Rath again and again, but apparently the Dauthi just vanished...

    (yet another sigh) My beloved Negator, why can you not return? Red and green are not your pals, and they are everywhere.

    Yet blue and white, your appetizers, sit dominant in the field.

    (ya know) My dark knights of all varieties, my efficient creatures, why have you all run away? Come back, and show those Rebels how justice is truly served!

    But Wizards says nay...

    My Plaguelord is gone, my Dauthi are gone, my Negator has vanished, my Knights have all abandoned me; and I sit here, staring at a Story Circle. What to do, what to do indeed? This accursed Circle is indestructible, and the game ends on turn three.

    A Blastoderm comes, dodging my Snuff Outs and Vendettas, my Annihilates and Terrors, my Drain Lifes and Dark Banishings, because I can no longer deliver the necessary Edict to destroy it.

    Where indeed has my Spirit gone? From Trampling, Flying, and defending his master to sitting around gathering dust. No one wants to play Extended or Type 1. Your sad eyes are useless, there is no foe who will face you. An unjust fate, for a glorious past.

    My Duress has returned, but for what purpose? To bolster the ranks of Blue and Red, sitting in decks that are not of its own allegiance? Its master has no army left to clear the way for...


    Regardless, this has turned into more of a Magic Issue, and as such I will be starting a new thread there on this very eve.

    Come all, one of our own has been left behind.
  8. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    Now we mourn for our lost color....
  9. Istanbul Sucker MCs call me sire.

    You give up too easily.

    Come, Pestilence! Ruin the days of my enemies! Deliver one fruitful BLAST that crushes all creatures before you!

    Come, Crypt Rats! Bring Pestilence to all that would stand before you!

    Come, Befoul! Versatility, thy name is four-mana creature/landkill!

    Onward, Dark Banishing! Even the Chimeric Idols tremble before your touch!

    Onward, Soul Feast! Make your opponent's life your own!

    Onward, Engineered Plague! Rebels, birds, elves, all tremble at your appearance!

    Forward, Razortooth Rats! Opponents will rue the day they mocked black!

    Forward, Fallen Angel! Consume your allies to deliver intense beatings...then heed Twilight's Call for a new opportunity!

    Forward, Nocturnal Raid! Hasten your opponent's demise, denying them an opportunity to gain control!

    Black got some good cards! No, it did NOT get fat. But what it DID get is the following deck:

    3x Phyrexian Battleflies
    4x Ravenous Rats
    4x Spineless Thug
    3x Maggot Carrier
    3x Foul Imp
    2x Razortooth Rats
    2x Crypt Rats
    2x Abyssal Specter

    2x Nocturnal Raid
    3x Unholy Strength
    2x Sinister Strength

    4x Duress
    2x Bog Down
    3x Dark Ritual
    3x Corrupt

    18x Swamp

    Fast beatdown in the form of nasty creatures with choice creature pumping spells, discard in Duress, Bog Down, and Ravenous Rats. Assuming your white mage does manage to get a Story Circle down, I've never seen the deck that could handle 23 sources of black damage...and Foul Imp, Phyrexian Battleflies, and Abyssal Specter fly right over Teferi's Moat. Oh, did I mention that Corrupt and Crypt Rats don't care about blockers?


    4x Engineered Plague
    3x Oppression
    2x Tsabo's Decree
    4x Plague Spitter
    2x Twilight's Call

    Engineered Plague because Rebels are so GOOD right now.
    Oppression vs. the 'counter' of 'counter-rebel'.
    Tsabo's Decree, ditto.
    Plague Spitter with a Turn 1 Ritual equals slow-down for Fires (which should have a problem with this deck anyway).
    Twilight's Call to bring back all your creatures for another round, if your opponent kills them all.

    Oh, and yes, I know what you're thinking...my point is that this deck will still be legal in November.
  10. DÛke Memento Mori

    ...and that deck above, although seems tempting, probably was just a result of marvelous thinking from Istanbul's mind...

    ...believe me, if you don't give up, you'll find many ways to use what Black has already for its own advantage...the more mono, the better (the way it seems).

    I don't see why most people assume that the Blastoderm will get through by turn 3-5...who said I'll let it come through (see Istanbul's deck above)...there are just so many chumps right now, why not use some of them?

    ...Black has no fat, but ironically speaking, it has the best chumps...Ravenous Rats, Phyrexian Battle Flies, and Crypt Rats...all which are good in both, chumping and attacking basis.

    Without fat, Black will have to focus ON the OTHERS' fat and let be extinct...

    Serra Angel will not be a problem at all, with Snuff-Out, Terror, and to a lesser extent Seal of Doom and Vendetta...

    Blastoderm is a chumper's dream. I believe that chumping it fills one's heart with a feel of euphoria...just because Blastoderm is so big and powerful, doesn't mean...it'll live forever...and in fact, that is the truth.

    Crypt Rats will love to eat it. :D
  11. Istanbul Sucker MCs call me sire.

    Blasty as a turn 3 drop? Okay! Please, DO hit me with Blasty. Gimme everything you got.

    Odds are, the above deck will give at least five points of damage right back.

    Here's a plausible scenario.

    Turn 1: Swamp, Phyrexian Battleflies, Go.
    Them: Forest, Birds, Go.
    Turn 2: Swamp, Spineless Thug, Go.
    Them: Forest, Fires, Go.
    Turn 3: Swamp, Unholy Strength on Battleflies, Sinister Strength on Thug, pump Flies, attack for EIGHT. Watch opponent's face.
    Them: Forest, Blasty, attack for five.
    Turn 4: Duress that Saproling Burst out of their hand, feed Flies, attack for nine.
    Them: SECOND Blasty (let's be generous), attack for ten.
    Turn 5: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Corrupt for the kill.

    And that's if we don't draw a Ritual till turn 5.

    Fact is, many of the creatures in this deck, if strengthed up, can face down a Blastoderm...will probably die, but will take Blasty with them. And in a deck like this...well, losing one weenie to kill Blasty isn't so bad.
  12. Cateran Emperor Passed On

    So then, the Fires player is too stupid to block a single one of your creatures? Sorry Isty, but that's not a Hatred. Not even close.

    Still, I'll give something of my own a shot, if only to humor you.

    Fun with Death!

    4 Rampart Crawler
    4 Molting Harpy
    4 Phyrexian Battleflies
    4 Duskwalker

    4 Revenant

    3 Mind Slash
    4 Duress (Well, Black got one freaking thing in the set)
    4 Massacre (Revenant gets big! Whee!)
    4 Dark Ritual
    3 Death Bomb (Revenant likes it)
    2 Corrupt

    20 Swamps (Eh, I'm not really caring about Mr. Mana base right now)

    It looks like it should work, and it may feel like it should work, but it just doesn't work. Black simply can't bring all the pieces together. (sigh) Where's Living Death when I need it?
  13. Apollo Bird Boy

    Isty, you gave yourself a pretty darn good hand. And you're facing an incredibly stupid opponent, who doesn't keep his Blasties back to hold off your horde. Also, a Hydra would slaughter you. And any deck with a Wrath effect would smash you.

    A deck like that seems like it would work, in theory. But in practice, you end up trading two guys for one, losing a creature and an enhancer to one card, or having a big effect wipe your side. It just doesn't work out. In an environment that uses a lot of big, creatures like Blasties, Djinns, Dragons, etc. that come out fast, a deck like this isn't fast enough to win. And every other black deck has similar problems.
  14. Istanbul Sucker MCs call me sire.

    I'm not looking for Hatred. I'm looking for fast black rush.

    Hold Blasty back to block my creatures? Great! I just won't attack, or I'll only attack with my flyers. Blasty will fade out, and I'll resume my offensive.

    Wrath? If my opponent is playing Wrath, I'll board in Twilight's Call...and with all the creatures in this deck, a player will HAVE to produce a Wrath early...and continue producing Wraths.

    In an environment with a lot of five, six casting cost creatures, a weenie horde may very well have what it takes to win. Sure, eat a creature a turn! If I can finish you off, I don't mind at all.
  15. Cateran Emperor Passed On

    Okay, rather than Blastoderm how about Jade Leech? Two Headed Dragon? Rith even? One Ancient Hydra could wreak psychotic amounts of damage before fading out.
  16. Apollo Bird Boy

    Boy, Isty, you sure like these conditional situations. I notice you don't give your opponent any creatures that stick around. What happens if there's a Leech or Hydra, as Cat said? Your creatures are useless, except for the Battleflies. And Vampire Bats were never that great, either... And what if a Dragon comes out? That's game over, unless I'm mistaken...

    I also liked your Twilight's Call plan... you've already conceded game 1, it sounds like. Are you gonna produce one of your two Twilight's Calls on turn 5 in each of the next two games? Cause you know after that, it's just going to be countered. Heck, you'll be lucky if even that will help you, as your deck isn't fast enough to force the opponent to Wrath turn 4. If you don't get a great hand like the one in your example, your opponent might as well wait till turn 6, when he can Wrath and counter.

    All decks work well when they aren't disrupted at all, like in your example. It's when you play against a real opponent that it counts...
  17. Istanbul Sucker MCs call me sire.

    Wow, Apollo, you really seem to HATE my deck! I haven't seen you attack me (yes, me personally) with such fervor in a LONG time. :D

    Both of you seem to have forgotten something: sure, play your fatties. By the time you can generate four or five mana, I can get in a few good hits. Given a halfway decent start, several good hits.

    Fine. Let's assume you manage to get your Jade Leech AND a Blasty out. That's two creatures...by the time you play them, I'm likely to have four or five, and have hit you several times. And you DARE not attack with them...if you do, my counterattack will almost certainly kill you.

    And if I can push Fires into a situation where it doesn't dare attack, *I WIN*.

    As for Wrath...no, against Counter-Rebel, I have a decent chance Game 1 due to my flyers and my speed. (I just *love* how you conveniently forgot about all my flyers except the Battleflies, Apollo. Kudos.) My point is that, Game 2, I have EXTRA defense vs. a Wrath.

    Fine. It's a bad deck. Can't win. You're right, I'm wrong. Mono-black can't possibly stand a chance. There's NO room in Type II for a new archetype, and despite my REPEATED PROOF that I can handle two of the top decks out there, I just lose.

    And people have asked me why I don't come here as often anymore...
  18. Cateran Emperor Passed On

    Whoa there Isty, you're taking this all wrong. There is room for new archetypes in type 2, but you're going to have to bust some heads to get it.

    I still don't see any reason why your deck works. But then I haven't given any actual reason why it doesn't work either.

    You see, anything can look good on paper oh Magic Player Formerly Known as Constantinople, but until it actually is given some test games, everything is bad or good purely because of the situations we give to it.

    Answer: Apprentice. Respond if you feel up to it, either me or Apollo.
  19. Zadok001 CPA Founder, Greater Good


    Well, SOMEONE had to do it. (Playtest results follow, Isty was NOT playing his deck, but I'm calling it "Isty.dec" for reference purposes.)

    Game 1 vs. Fires:

    Both decks start slow. Battleflies with S. Strength is Assaulted after only getting 3 damage through. Rats gets a K. Forest. Jade Leech gets played. Crypt Rats hits. Crypt Rats is assaulted after Ravenous Rats chumps the Leech. Topdecked Duress gets nothing, Maggot Carrier gets played. It proceeds to chump a Leech. Foul Imp is played. Two-Header hits as Fires finally draws land #6. Foul Imp is forced to chump since it dies to the Dragon if it attacks. Abyssal Specter is played, and chumps the Dragon as Isty.dec takes five from the Leech (13). Dragon #2 hits, and that's all she wrote.

    Analysis: Below-average hands for both decks, although Fires still went very quickly. 1/1 threats forced to chump the Leech lost the game. Snuff Out would have helped a LOT.

    Game 2:

    Foul Imp is the first creature. Fires spends its second turn Porting. Foul Imp hits. Idol goes down from Fires. Isty.dec proceeds to lay land #4, Bog Down with Kicker, Ritual, and Bog down again, forcing Fires to discard their entire hand - 2x Dragons, 1x Fires, 1x Burst, 1x Dust Bowl. Foul Imp makes it 18-16 in favor of Isty. Fires topdecks and plays Idol #2, and it goes to 15-16 Fire's favor. Isty.dec plays Thug and Unholy Strengths it. Fires plays a Bird and serves for 6. (9-14 Fires.) Birds chumps thugs, Fires goes to 12. Ravenous Rats gets nothing, but chumps an Idol. Abyssal Specter gets played to chump another Idol (6-6, no favor.) Fires is forced to reserve an Idol to block, and Isty.dec does not block with the Specter, going to 3. (3-6, Fires.) Specter serves, leaving 2 critter to chump. (3-4, Fires.) Specter eats a Dragon. Fires goes to 3 from a painland, drawing land #4 to play its Leech. Serves with 2x Idols, forcing two chumps. One Idol dies. No life changes. Isty.dec has 2 power worth of creatures, Fires is at three, and Isty.deck will need to chump next turn with 2 creatures to live. Draws Spineless Thug, and loses.

    Analysis: Sub-par draw for Fires, GREAT Bog Down tricks by Isty.dec, but its creatures were too small to keep up a race against two Idols.

    Game 3 vs. Fires:

    Battleflies is matched by Birds on turn 1. Turn 2 has Unholy Strength and an attack for 3, matched by an Idol by Fires. Crypt Rats gets played, and the Flies hit for 2. Leech gets played (where are the Blastys? :) ), and Idol hits for 3. Spineless Thug gets played, and the Flies hit for 3 again. (17-12, Isty.dec.) Fires plays another Idol and a Llanowar, and attacks for 8 with an Idol and a Leech. Isty.dec takes it all, going to 9. Isty.dec plays an Imp, and Serves with the Flies for 2, leaving 1 mana untapped. Fires serves with 2x Idol and a Leech. Foul Imp blocks the Leech, Crypt Rats blocks an Idol, damage stacked, Ritual, Rats for 3. Board = Cleared. :) It is, however, 10-2 in favor of Fires, since the Imp stole some life. Spineless Thug is the first creature, played on Isty.dec's next turn. Fires draws land. 8-2. Fires draws land. Specter drawn and played. 6-2. Fires draws land. Crypt Rats gets played. Specter eats... LAND! :) 2-2. Fires peels Assault. Isty.dec dies to Assault.

    Analysis: Tense. The last few turns were very strange, and thought Fires pulled it outk, it looked like Isty had it for a while. Saying "Lucky topdeck" doesn't really excuse it in this case, since Isty.dec DID go to 2, and DID get Fires to draw two land first.

    Game 4 vs. Fires:

    Turn 1 Flies and Llanowars face off. A Duress steals an Assault, and the Flies get all Unholy on Fire's ass. Birds come down, and Isty.dec gets Ported (mana being fed into Flies). The Flies go all Sinister, and come in for SIX. Leech hits to bring some offense to Fires. The score goes to 20-7 in Isty.dec's favor as a Crypt Rats comes down and the Flies go over again. Leech #2 gets played, and Leech #1 serves. The Rats do their thing, removing the Birds, and the Flies serves for lethal damage.

    Analysis: A fairly solid win. Isty.dec didn't take any serious hits, but the sheer power of the Flies was enough. The Duress was actually topdecked, and was very lucky, since an Assault would have turned the game 180 degrees.

    Game 5 vs. Fires:

    Fires opens with a Birds again. Isty.dec plays a Ritual, Duress, Foul Imp, taking an Idol. Fires plays Fires. The Imp goes all Sinister and comes over for 5. (15-18 Isty.dec.) Fires fails to draw land and just lays an Idol and serves, evening the score. Maggot Carrier hits and the scores go to 9-14. Fires doesn't draw land again, plays 2x Elves, and serves with the Idol. Isty.dec hits again, making it 4-11. Fires plays a Burst. Removes 4 counters, and attacks for 15 with the Idol. An unblocked 3/3 gets Fires-ed, and Isty.dec dies.

    Analysis: A slightly mana light hand by Fires, a very agressive hand by Isty.dec. The Flies have been powerful, but it should be noted that Fires could have lived even another turn by blocking with the Birds, and that the Burst was not topdecked.

    Game 6 vs. Fires:

    Fires does the "Painland, Bird" dance of pain. Battleflies hits on the other side. They're blown out of the skies. A Spineless Thug tries to replace them. It gets Assaulted. Bog Down does some massive hand-raping to Fires. Fires Ports Isty.dec, but that doesn't stop a Rat from eating Fires last card, a Dragon. Fires peels and plays a Burst. A Foul Imp hits, and Fires serves with a 5/5 Saproling. Isty.dec takes 5, 15-20 Fires. Isty serves with only the Imp (Rats would get Bursted), and plays a Thug. (15-17.) The Saproling serves again, and gets blocked by a Rats. Llanowar gets played. The Imp serves. (15-15.) Maggot carrier takes it to 14-14. The Imp get Assaulted. The Saproling serves, making it 11-14. Razortooth rats gets dropped, and the Carrier and Thug make it 11-12. Fires draws nothing worth while, and keeps its 2/2 Saproling back on D. The Saproling blocks a Thug, and the Llanowar blocks the Carrier. The Thug is replaced quickly. Isty.dec attacks for 4 damage as Fires draws Port #2. 8-6. Fires draws and plays a second Burst. Due to the double-Porting, Isty.dec can do nothing but pass the turn. 2 4/4s go for the head, and unable to take the damage, Isty.dec has to chump with the Rats. No play on the next turn, and Isty.dec dies to little Saprolings and an Assault.

    Phew. I'll continue this later. Exhausting!
  20. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    That's what I'm talking about, hard data from games to back up red-hot rhetoric and theory... thanks Zadok!

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