USA offshoot from "Blame it on Inflation?"

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by Slug man, May 1, 2001.

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  1. Slug man lunatic of the raving variety

    There are some really interesting points being raised here, so I think my oringinal post was a good thing. I have a lot of things to say, but I am not going to, because it is more interesting as an onlooker then as a participator. BTW I lead a debate in school the other day, where we concluded that Hitler did more good then bad. Nothing is either wrong or right, it depends how you argue it. I just get annoyed when the Americans think how wonderful they are, and it humours me when they do dumb stuff. Like, I heard that Bushes daughter was caught drinking under 21. That is terrible isn't it? Why doesn't your government trust you enought to let you drink at an earlier age, like alot of other countries? This post will hopefully fuel some more debates over drinking laws, goodbye.
  2. Hetemti The Wide-Awake Nightmare

    Well, here in America you're free to think that, but since this thread's subject is the price of Magic cards and not America's involvement in wars off of US soil, I must disagree.
  3. Chaos Turtle Demiurgic CPA Member, Admin Assistant

    Perhaps if CCGPrime held a vote, we could lay this issue to rest. Heck, we might even get a short article from the President himself, telling us what a casual president he is, and begging for our vote.
  4. theorgg Slob


    (rolling on the floor laughing my a** off and having my chest really hurt from it)

    VERY possible. LOL
  5. Apollo Bird Boy

    Geez. I wasn't going to comment on this thread (though it was tough to ignore that post comparing the US in Vietnam to the Germans in WW2), but this is just, well, dumb. It's not a matter a trust. I know you'll just hide and not respond, but are you aware that alcohol does bad things to your body? Like, say, screwing up your liver, your brain, and just about everything else? Anything that keeps people from killing themselves is a good thing, as far as I can see.
  6. Istanbul Sucker MCs call me sire.

    Just a dumb question...

    ...but what does any of that US/Vietnam/Drinking crap have to do with Magic?
  7. Chaos Turtle Demiurgic CPA Member, Admin Assistant

    Many apologies for yet another off-topic post, but the drinking age in America has nothing to do with the harm it does to one's body (if it did, then smoking cigarettes should also be illegal before age 21).

    The reason is because of all of the traffic accidents which supposedly would result from young people drinking and driving. People who remember the "legal age" being changed to 21 might also remember how it was accomplished. It is un-Constitutional for the Federal government to mandate a drinking age, you see, so Congress simply cut off up to 10 percent of Federal highway funds to states whose drinking age was not 21. The states are free to change the drinking age to whatever they want, but risk losing those funds if the change is to lower than 21.

    The change was primarily brought about by the lobbying efforts of MADD (Mothers Against Drunk Driving). It has everything to do with money and politics and nothing at all to do with health.

    I'll stop now before I go on an extended rant. :(
  8. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Man, this thread in wandering all OVER the place... I said I'd try to break it up, but since Chaos Turtle put it in his Monday update, maybe I should wait until tomorrow... when I do break it up, some posts will be deleted (like Isty's valid question of what US/Vietnam/etc has to do with inflation).

    Personally, I think the driving age should be raised.

    Either that or lower the drinking age but have ZERO tolerance... you drink and drive, you're in jail or whatever. And none of this "involuntary manslaughter" for killing someone in a drunk/DUI driving "accident"...

    Slug Man: No offense, but I don't think much of your "debating skills". If you make a post here, be prepared to back it up when people call you on it. Otherwise, just admit you were wrong (none of this "my posts are to make you think :rolleyes: They ought to make YOU think first before posting).
  9. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    Wow... Okay, I've stayed out of this for a while because I was waiting for it to calm down. Now, I'll go point-by-point, and try to be brief.

    1. Elections. Yeah, we know. We screwed up in the latest one. Castro and Russia offered to send in peacekeepers to help maintain democracy here. I thought it was funny as hell, but we got through it. No harm no foul.

    2. Vietnam. We lost because we failed to achieve what we set down as our mission goals. There are several reasons I won't go into. If we HAD sent our entire military might into it, we may have won, but we didn't. And if we had own by bombing it into oblivion, it'd be the punchline to the old joke: The operation was successful, but the patient died. The domino effect was next to nonexistent, we got in there to flex our political muscles. The cold war came AFTER we started fearing communism, you know. And USSR came before. We were afriad of communists within, andin the labor movement (Thank you, Bauer!).

    3. Drinking age. I often wondered about that. I think it's because they drink alocohol in many european countries as THE basic drink. Not only are they used to it, but they don't drink to get drunk, most of the time, whereas a much higher percentage of Americans do.

    4. America the beautiful etc. Doesn't exist. We're a county like all others. Most isolationist, highly idealistic, but unwilling to get our hands dirty. We didn't join in WWII to stop the concentration camps, or even to stifle germany's spread or to assist the UK. It took Them attacking Us. We, like most people, are largely self-centered. Vietnam was the first time a powerful propaganda machine failed to sell a war. We've done pretty good, all in all. And we are amazingly young still. I don't mind being the joke of england. They're a thousand-odd years older than us, no? And england is relatively recent compared to some of the older european countries.

    5. Kosovo. I can't see your objection to it. I actually thought it was handled quite well. It was, in part, a show of power to prevent further losses. It was also an effective manuever.

    6. As far as I know the richest country per capita (as of 1995) is Luxemburg. It has no income tax, so it's used as a tax shelter by many. It's no doubt changed since.
  10. Mr USA New Member

    Actually, the cold war had been around for a long time. It began in the late 40's - right around when the Soviet Union took control of Eastern Europe after they liberated it and eventually created the Iron Curtain. Patton wanted to plow right through Germany and go after the Ruskies. How about the Forgotten War? Korea? North Korea invaded south - and would have won if we didn't intervene. We were supporting the democratic south in this scenario too - another instance of stemming the flow of communism.

    About WWII, we didn't join it per se. We were dragged into it. No, I'm not talking about Pearl Harbor. It was Hitler/Germany that declared war on the US after the PH incident. Before that we were heavily supporting the Brits. We had ships bringing them supplies well before we were formerly at war (Lend Lease). The Germans were practicing unrestricted warfare at the time, which meant that were going to sink any vessel that came into guarded waters. After they sank enough we started to escort them with destroyers - also before we were formally at war. The bottom line is that there was no singular reason we went to war. We did it because there was popular support, because of the persecution of the Jews, because our allies were attacked and because it was the right thing to do. It is a shame that you say that we entered WWII because we are self-centered. Did you know that historians call WWII 'The Last Good War’? The last war where it was clearly good against evil.
  11. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    We weren't in the WW II until Japan bombed us. And even then, it was them infringing on supplies of tin, oil, rubber, etc. that led us to the embargo of japan that prodded them into war (it was known in the government that the united states was taking economic actions against Japan that could lead to war). We didn't go to war when they sank our ships, or killed our men, because it was not in our best interest to go to war with Germany. They were even anti-communist. We were not the good guys. It was not clearly good against evil. Never is. Only from the winner's perspective, can we look back and say that we were right. Had they won, no doubt they would say we were wrong. The winners write the history books. THERE IS NO GOOD. THERE IS NO EVIL. EVER.

    The forgotten war is forgotten for a couple good reasons: we supported south korea, and set up a nice little puppet government there, under our control. That was US imperialism in action, taking control of a provider of metals and cheap labor.

    Actually, the fear of communism came from the great depression, where communist leaders within labor parties managed to shut down the entire west coast for almost a week. The government needed something within these labor parties to pick on. No political group has escaped the title of communistic by their opponents. The cold war came afterwards.
  12. Cateran Emperor Passed On

    I'm going to sit this one out as well. One quick thought: if you're an American soldier in Vietnam, odds are that it's difficult to tell an innocent civilian from a soldier in disguise waiting for you to turn your back so they can get off a shot. That doesn't justify My Lai, but it is the reason that they gave.

    MrUSA: I would've stepped in to defend America long ago like I frequently have to, but you're handling things well enough. I leave it in your hands.
  13. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    Looking back, I realize I seem down on america. I'm not. I love it. It's, in my fully predjudiced opinion, the best country in the world. But I don't believe in giving traits that aren't there to it. I don't believe America is perfect, any more than the people in it are perfect. It has all their faults, but all their virtues too. So, yes it is greedy and self-serving, but it also tends to have rather strict moral guidelines and be extremely intelligent in it's moves. Almost never makes the same mistake twice. A country is no more than the sum of it's people, though. Don't personify nations, that's dangerous.
  14. Mr USA New Member

    Bro, I don't know where you are getting your information from, but it sounds like you need to hit those textbooks at your school a little harder. Your information is way off. It actually sounds like you are deriving your info from the Communist Manifesto rather than Western history books.

    Officially we were not involved in WW2 until Japan bombed PH. But well before that we were actively participating. Our destroyer escorts were fending off German U-boats and the Flying Tigers were helping the Chinese. We knew we were going to get involved. We were just waiting for the right time. It WAS good against evil. How can you say it wasn't? When a country tried to subjugate half the world, attacks countries without provocation or declaring war and enslaves them or systematically wipes them out, is that not a good reason to get involved?

    You are partly right that winners write the history books. There are discrepancies between Western and Japanese accounts of what happened. An example is that Japan is trying to erase the occurrence of the Rape of Nanking. Do you think the West exaggerated Germany's atrocities? Do you not believe that Japan's doctrine was to win the war at ANY cost? Is there so much fabrication in our Western textbooks?
  15. Apollo Bird Boy

    A clarification: drinking and driving was mainly what I meant by "killing oneselves". I was just writing that in a hurry and perhaps wasn't as specific as I could have been. When I said that drinking did bad things to your body, that would certainly include messing up one's mind, would it not? So, the drinking age has everything to do with keeping us safe.

    Sorry for not being more specific. My dad wanted to use the phone.:)
  16. Gerode Becoming a Lurker Again

    Mr USA is mostly right about pre-WWII involvement; the US was isolationist while Germany gained power in the mid to late-1930's, but as soon as conflict broke out, we heavily aided the British with money and munitions.

    Good vs Evil depends on the point of view. I am certain that the Nazis viewed us as evil, too. Did evil (us) triumph over good (them)? I obviously do not support the Nazis in any way, but it could be easily interpreted that way from someone else. Good vs. Evil does not exist, except from a biased opinion.
  17. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    I have to agree with Duel on most of his WWII points( most of the others too); the US did not enter the war until Pearl Harbor and only then did we declare war on Japan. Germany declared war then because they were Japan's allies. We were not "waiting" for the right time either; we were supporting Britain mainly because they were allies "and were the underdog". The US didn't enter because of the Jews; no one knew or believed the reports of what was happening.

    I said to Multani in Off-Topic; don't go solely by US history textbooks. Unfortunately, US textbooks in general are chock-full of errors.
  18. Mr USA New Member

    Cateran Emperor - thanks for the nod. It's nice to know that there are other patriots out there. If there are others in the grandstand, speak up, it'd be nice to know that I'm not the only stone standing against this river of leftist, anti-patriotic dialog.

    Duel: I may be patriotic and maybe my views sound conservative, but I realize that there are problems with our nation and that there are things we have done wrong in the past. It's useful to keep these bad things in our mind, but not in the forefront, clouding our ability to speak about the things we have done right. That's the problem with us now . . . not enough defenders, but plenty of outspoken liberals who want to attack everything that is bad. After the bombing of Pearl Harbor, young men ran to the recruitment offices. The recruitment offices were overflowing with applicants. They wanted to fight for their country. It is my belief that if a similar incident happened now, that would not happen. I believe that most young Americans are too interested in the three feet of space surrounding them and less interested in what is going on in the world. That is why we need more patriots.

    Gerode: Agreed - good vs. evil does depend on point of view. And please don't give me any attempted cerebral crap about it not existing. In the context of WW2 it is applicable. During the war, Germany viewed the United States as a distant nation of lazy, non war-like people that were only interested in entertainment and making dollars. Philosophically, their nemesis was Russia. They saw Russia, with their flawed communistic ways, as the big evil. In retrospect, consider the actions and intentions of the nations involved in this world event - is it not clear to you that Germany was wrong? When the whole world joins forces against you, is that not a sign that you are up to no good? To me, that is as good as evil.

    Spiderman: I believe that history books have to be refined, since we are continually finding out new things. But to flat out say they chock-full of errors and not worth believing is ridiculous. A person wanting to be well informed usually will read many sources on the same topic and will read newer sources when they become available. That is why people can and do rely on historical references. To read one book on history and consider yourself an expert is folly. I'm not sure, maybe you were referring to history books you read in high school. If the answer is yes, then I agree, you are prone to run into a slimmed down version of history that is likely to be dated. But that's why people pick up books written by independent authors. I can't tell you how many books I've read on WW2. That is why I consider myself well informed on this topic.
  19. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    MrUSA: Hey, it was YOU who implied that all you used were school textbooks, not me. I was pointing out what you're doing right now.

    I don't think you're the only one "fighting" us; most of us also "love" the USA. However, it sounds like we're a bit more temperant in realizing what the US has and has not done (the loss in Vietnam for example, while you initially argued that we "won").

    I too have read myriad books on WWII (although not recently).
  20. Duel Has Less Posts Than Spiderman

    You should read up more on WW II, perhaps. I am not using school textbooks. the ones at our school ARE chock-full of errors and, at times completely ridiculous. Yours probably aren't. I try and find more direct sources of information. Instead of looking in textbooks, look up books on US-Japan relations, or the "Open door" policy in China. The truth is, nobody can really tell you exactly why, but everyone makes guesses. I try to inform my guesses from specific sources, read beyond school textbooks, and try and overlook the patriotic biases. Read Japan's texts, or some of non-american authors. You'll find some amazing information.

    In the white house, a little over a week before the bombing of pearl harbor, there was a meeting held. It's topic was the possibility of war with Japan due to the embargo the US applied on them.

    And if the whole world is against you, you're outvoted, not evil. That's called Mob Rule, Mr. USA.
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