Discussion in 'Games Run By CPA Members' started by Spiderman, Mar 5, 2009.
Who's in? BigBlue said he's already ready, and of course I'm in, though not ready yet...
I need a deck yet.
Can we start this on Monday?
Yeah, I also need a deck. We need to figure out what tribes are still available. There are probably a lot, but at first glance, all the good ones look to have been used already...
I've got a couple tribes in mind... but I think I'll keep them to myself for now.
There are plenty of good ones left.
I got my deck started, doing some play testing, but yeah...I am in. Still have one question about the banned/restricted. I tried to look up the list for MTGO and all I got was that Flash, Imperial Seal, Mana Crypt, Vampiric Tutor are restritcted and Gleemax is banned. Is that all? Aside, of course what we have listed as special case in the Tribal Admin thread?
That's an excellent question...
Because I knew there was a "gentlemen's agreement" on the use of some cards to avoid abuse...
But, as we get the somewhat more difficult tribes to play it might be nice to have some options and all be on the same page w/ them. Modus asked this in Game # 10 I beleive.
MTGO originally had nothing to do with this. The only thing we did was take the "1/3 of the deck must be creatures of the same type" thing. We were using the Vintage restricted list. Limited put the MTGO Tribal Format banned list up there later in the administration thread. I pretty much ignored it myself, although I guess I didn't use any of those cards since (I saw Skullclamp on the list he posted, but that was after I'd already used a deck with it).
Since this isn't MTGO, using their banned list (where the card pool is much smaller) seems pointless.
We should nail this down and put it in the admin thread so there's no more confusion
I seem to remember no more than 5 cards from the Vintage B/R list and then only in singles. The banned cards are what's listed in the admin thread. And there's a gentleman's agreement about dealing the killing blow w/creatures, not via decking or other ways of dealing dmg. Is that right?
That sounds right, which also means my deck is actually done now and we can start whenever everyone else is ready .... maybe Monday?
Monday sounds good, I'm still gettijng my deck...
OK, so up to 5 cards from vintage Restricted, no banned + none of the tribal banned.
That seems easy enough. And those Tribal banned cards make sense to me.
Has anyone played Leviathans yet?
I'd be opposed to people using ANY cards from the Vintage banned list. I don't really feel like arguing over whether your Falling Star hit my creature. Oh, and at one point a while back, it was suggested that we have a "gentleman's agreement" about not using P9 cards, which makes sense to me and I think no one's done it so far. I don't really want these games to be about who draws Black Lotus first. Maybe we should just use the Legacy banned list to simplify things, but I guess if people want to use Sol Ring or Black Vise or whatever, then fine.
As for killing people with damage, I don't remember that. I thought the agreement was no infinite combos. Having to strike the killing blow with creatures seems silly. It would mean that I could pack Lightning Bolt and use it on you or your creatures, but not use it on your if you're down to 3 life just because it wouldn't be "gentlemanly." Really?
What's so scary about Jitte?
Sorry, I meant just the Restricted List - there should be nothing banned.
I think Sol Ring is OK, it helps most decks and it's a one-of...
I don't care one way or the other about Jitte... I do think some of the cards I abused in the avatar deck shouldn't really be in tribal... like Sneak Attack. Imnsho, the point of tribal is the tribes are supposed to do the work, not the spellcaster. But, the more you ban, the more you have to ban to be "fair", it's sort of a slippery slope - so I can see where banning very little is a good thing.
For example: If we were to ban Sol Ring, then why do we allow Dark Ritual or any other fast mana?
And by the by, I'm bringing a fun tribe, not an optimal tribe...
No, I got that. I was just being overly particular about Spidey's "no more than 5 cards from the Vintage B/R list."
Yeah, same here. I've used it myself and these are casual games after all. If I thought something we were allowing was too good, I'd raise the issue rather than trying to exploit it. And that's what I'm doing now about the P9 cards. I think even if we allow 5 cards from the Vintage restricted list, we'll all still be annoyed when someone casts Time Walk, especially if gives him a kill he wouldn't ordinarily have gotten. But technically, that could happen with other cards too. I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm not particularly eager to face Balance or Yawgmoth's Bargain if someone builds a deck that utilizes them properly.
I disagree about Sneak Attack. The way you used it was actually kind of brilliant. I fully believe that it's mostly an overrated card. You got the most out of it. I tried to do the same last game with Recurring Nightmare (but it never got online until late game and things were so crazy by then that it's hard to tell how good the card actually was in my deck). But I don't think Sneak Attack was/is a problem. It's an explosive card that a bad deckbuilder would use and burn himself out (especially in multiplayer). You're a good deckbuilder, so you made it work.
Well, we're already restricting Sol Ring and not Dark Ritual. But that's quite simply because Sol Ring is restricted in Vintage (and for Vintage tournaments, it would be crazy to unrestrict Sol Ring, but I think you know that). It's an inevitable consequence of using a list that was designed with a different format from ours in mind. At least having Sol Ring restricted potentially slows our decks down a bit and arguably makes things more interesting. But there are some cards for which that's not the case. Was anyone really thinking about using more than one copy of Imperial Seal?
I suppose we could do a vote on how we want this format to work. I don't know what all the options should be, but here are some examples...
A: Follow the Vintage banned and restricted lists.
B: Follow the Vintage banned and restricted lists. Each deck is limited to 5 slots of restricted cards.
C: Follow the Vintage banned and restricted lists, but also ban certain cards (P9 or something like that) that are too powerful even as 1-ofs.
D: Follow the Legacy banned list.
E-H: Like options A-D above, but also banning some or all of the cards banned in MTGO. This would eliminate any concerns about Engineered Plague or other such cards, if anyone is actually worried about them.
I: Make our own banned list (and a restricted list too, if we want) from scratch. I'm guessing we probably don't want to put in the effort to do testing for this, but other than that admittedly huge issue, it solves everything.
Actually, my decks aren't good enough to worry about banned or restricted cards. I just follow the banned list on the first page.
I actually had a more powerful combo than I thought in the last game (Dwarven Bomber, who knew). I think that the main kill should be from the tribal creatures you have in your deck and their interactions with other cards in the deck, then say a couple of enchantments and a non-tribal creature.....
But whatever you guys decide is fine with me.
The only thing I wanted to really ask about (cause it does affect me right now) is the Moxes. Having one of them in a single color deck is not really that much of a problem in my opinion. If you are playing 2 colors, it could be a speed issue (but really only if you get lucky enough to draw 2 of them which would be pretty rare). As for Timewalk/timetwister/Ancestral Recall, I have not considered putting them into a deck yet. I used to be the proud owner of a Time Walk, and really, it's best use was in infinite decks, and that is something that I think we agreed to avoid. But then, I will follow any group decision, as I know I am not the greatest deck builder and am just in this for the fun of it.
Yeah, if you do draw your moxes early, you are lucky. And that luck could allow you to win the game or at least kill an opponent who would normally have kept pace with you. This is exactly why I'd prefer to just go with the Legacy banned list. Most of you haven't even been using Vintage restricted cards from what I can tell, so I'm not sure why you'd prefer to be able to.
Well, I haven't put them in a deck either. But if we allow it, someone at some point will. And other people aren't going to like it. My suggestion to the group is to use the Legacy banned list as well as banning anti-tribe cards like Tsabo's Decree. Failing that, I'm opposed to the use of any P9 cards and if we don't ban them, I will use them. "Gentleman's agreements" are fine every once in a while, but there's no need for one on this issue.
Edit: If the consensus actually is to switch to the Legacy banned list, I'll need to revise my deck. It's currently Vintage-legal and doesn't even have any restricted cards, but one card is banned in Legacy.
I haven't posted on this forum in like 2 years, but I figure I'll throw my hat in if you'll let me.
Of course, the more the merrier.
My vote is for G - Vintage banned & Restricted + no extra turns + no Tribal hosers (Engineered Plague etc).
I'll tell you what I wouldn't ban, but I think goes against what I feel is the spirit of "Tribal" - Resets like Balance, Wrath, Damnation, etc. There was a good thread in the wayback machine by Captain Caveman on Tribal rules which I agreed with mostly.
I also think there should be a max of 4 non-tribal creatures in a deck. Sometimes you need support, but the tribe has to be the focus.
Instead of "kill" points, I'd say you keep track of damage dealt by your tribe... for every 20 points of damage dealt by your tribe to opponents you get a point, damage over and above taking a player to zero wouldn't count. This get's rid of the decking etc. And, if you do a lot of damage to a lot of players, but don't deal the last point you still get credit.
Sounds good to me. That last may be unnecessary. If you're playing a 60-card deck with 30 creatures because you need support for 20 of them, you're probably at a disadvantage against opponents using only 20 creatures.
I'm not sure if this would work or not. But I don't care much anyway. I've been more focused on trying to win than on scoring placement points.
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