sui black standardish build

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Exaulted_Leader

Guest
That article is not just outdated. Honestly, I don't think the author knows what he's talking about. Where'd you find it? And who the heck is 'TMD'?

Nantuko Shade, 'The Best Creature in T1 - right behind Morphling'.

Foremostly, Nantuko Shade isn't even in the same league as Morphling. Secondly, very solid arguments can be made that Goblin Welder, Metalworker, Psychatog, Juggernaut, Wild Mongrel and Basking Rootwalla have made much greater impacts on the Vintage scene than Shade ever has or will. It's not bad on the same level as something like Benalish Hero - but it's still pretty terrible (it's terrible for one simple reason: no evasion. Not even Trample. This will often equate to a very mana-intensive attack that will more often than not simply leave an opponent with one less threat on the table. Devour in Shadow would've been a better investment).

...Whart about Flesh Reavers? They're a solid 4/4 'stick for 1B... though the drawback is pretty fierce.
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
TMD is The Mana Drain...

I forgot about good ole Flesh Reaver...

Creatures in Type I that are better than Nantuko Shade...

Goblin Welder
Academy Rector
Psychatog
Hypnotic Specter
Morphling
Masticore
Birds of Paradise
Phyrexian Dreadnought
Gorilla Shaman
Wild Mongrel
Sundering Titan
Flying Men
Metalworker
Squee, Goblin Nabob
Darksteel Colossus
Juggernaut
Worldgorger Dragon
Exalted Angel
Elvish Spirit Guide
Quirion Dryad
Basking Rootwalla
Cloud of Faeries
Xantid Swarm
Ophidian
Arcbound Ravager
Pentavus
The list goes on...

But as far as Sui goes...

I am still not really decided on the issue. Flesh Reaver though, as Leader pointed out, is a nasty attacker, and very much along the lines of Suicide's gameplan...
 
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Gaea'sSaproling

Guest
hmmm reaver is for a meta game choice and ultimatley belongs in the sb, ok can u guys really say there is a BETTER choice then Nantuko Shade?
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
Hypnotic Specter, Phyrexian Negator...

Like I said though, I'm not sure if it belongs or not. I wasn't the one who called it "terrible." I don't think it's in the same league as Morphling either...
 
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Gaea'sSaproling

Guest
phyrexian negator and hypnotic spectre are already in ;)

i never said it was better then morphling heh but as far as black goes imho its still a staple

have u seen the latest sui builds? hypnotic spectre isnt even used nowadays kinda sad :(
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
For what format? Vintage? It doesn't matter what the latest builds look like, because they never win...

Any deck that wants to compete these days should have an answer to Workshop-Trinisphere on the first turn...
 
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Gaea'sSaproling

Guest
ya vintage, they dont even use spectre -.- and i believe they are packing answers for turn 1 trinisphere, i dont see how workshop is still running rampant it should have been restricted a long time ago with lotus

in my opinion its more powerful then a lotus, it has staying power.
eventually wotc will neuter it after a few more sets and workshop decks have enough power to dominate top 8 in vintage tourneys
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
If Workshop were restricted, it would probably put TPS or Rectal Agony into a dominant position...

Stax is Rectal Agony's worst matchup. And it can still win there. I am actually a bit surprised that Agony isn't seeing more play, since it slaughters most decks...
 
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Gaea'sSaproling

Guest
i was gonna build a rectal agony variant, but i traded my playset of rectors away *kicks self
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
That's too bad. Although if you have the other cards, getting a playset of Rectors isn't all that big of a deal...

I still need to get a ton of cards, mostly just the more expensive ones, in order to complete my Agony deck...

But it has proven to be a monster in testing. Duress and Therapy disrupt the opponent tremendously, Force of Will is there for counter backup. Abeyance can act like a Time Walk or it can shoot down opposing disruption when I combo off. Once Rector hits, it's so easy to get Therapy in the graveyard, play a few spells including a Dark Ritual, and Tendrils for 20 life.
 
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Gaea'sSaproling

Guest
ya in rector tendrills is a beast of a deck i played ONE guy with that deck and got creamed 2 to 1... when he won he went off 2nd turn both times

abeyance is a bomb, against most combo it is a time walk
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
It's okay though...

The more those TMD'ers ignore Agony, the more time it gives me to fine-tune my deck and actually get the cards for it... :D

The thing that worries me the most is TPS actually being a better deck than it...

I think eventually TPS will become THE combo deck for the format. But with the cardpool the way it is, Rectal Agony is faster and more disruptive. The problem is that it doesn't like sideboard hate...

That, and the fact that almost no one plays it...
 
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Gaea'sSaproling

Guest
tps is good finly tuned it is very flexible, first time ive seen just looked on tmd
 
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Tabasco

Guest
Okay so who said I was telling you what Necro does?

I was clearly pointing out the difference between Card DRAWING and what necro does........Necro is not card DRAWING.

Goblin Welder is the "Best creature" in vintage right now. This deck along with TnT or any other deck that runs welder will overrun Sui 9 times out of 10.
Yes Rector is a close second

I honesly think that for what it is Skittering Skirge is a better card than Nantuko Shade.

a). costs the same.
b). requires no mana to aquire a 3/2 p/t
c). yes may not play creatures after it.
d). It has evasion aka FLYING.

Now my question to you is....if you have enough mana to make nantuko shade a 10 power creature, Why are neither you or opponent dead by this point. A vintage game would not last until you have 10 land in play.

Oh, and btw I am by no means a casual player.

Many of my decks are Tourney worthy and I could play competitive If I wanted to spend the money....school right now is more of a priority.
 
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Gaea'sSaproling

Guest
nantuko is a expensive card... and ive been thinking about it and phyrexian warbeast is going to replace that slot since i already have 3 only need 1 more

and this is totally crazy but what do u guys tihnk about blackmail?
 
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Mikeymike

Guest
I am apologizing in advance for not making it through the entire thread, it is longer than I thought it'd be due to Nantuko Shade debates (which I am in the "Pro-Shade" group, it is an amazing mid-late game card in Sui).

How about Lake of the Dead? It is a big Wasteland target, but it is an explosion of mana that you can do lots of things with.

I've got a techy suggestion for you: Lightning Greaves. I like it in here for two reasons.
1) It comes out on turn 2, right before your 2 'very dangerous if given haste' 3-CC creatures come out. Also, it doesn't truly interfere with Nantuko Shade since the Shade does not mind coming out later in the game.
2) It protects your Negator from Red Burn.
My biggest problem with it is that it likely wants more creatures in the deck than you are currently running.

I'm not crazy about Blackmail in here. I think Cabal Therapy would be a stronger option if you wanted that other 1-CC discard spell b/c
1) If you are playing in a constructed format, you likely have foreknowledge of the cards in your opponents hand.
2) It has the optional flashback (nice with Carnophage), and is pitchable to Masticore.

Last card is a favorite of mine in Sui-type decks, but my taste is definitely odd for 1v1 decks: Unearth.
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
Originally posted by Tabasco
Okay so who said I was telling you what Necro does?

I was clearly pointing out the difference between Card DRAWING and what necro does........Necro is not card DRAWING.
Like I said, everyone already knows that...

When people call Necro a card drawer, it's out of convenience, since the overall effect is so similar to actually drawing cards. The only important differences are probably the facts that...

It won't trigger effects that card drawing would (not normally a big deal)

and...

You don't get the cards until the end of turn. This is very important, but it also goes without saying to anyone who is familiar with Necro...
 
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Gaea'sSaproling

Guest
Necro IS card drawing, just not right away...

lightning greaves doesnt warrant the use of more creatures if ure drawing more cards then the average suicide build...

but u dont want to draw cards in a suicide build right? thats what everyone keeps telling me

anyways lightning greaves is sb material
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
Well, they don't mean that card advantage is bad for Suicide...

Just that Necro is too costly on your life total when you're already hurting yourself. That might not be true for all Sui builds, but since it's banned in Raisin and restricted in Vintage, it's a pointless debate, unless the deck is purely casual (and to clarify for Spidey, not following the B/R lists).

MikeyMike: Greaves could be great for protecting Negator, but if you're facing a deck with burn spells, you'd side out all Negators. So I'm not sure it's as potent...
 
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Mikeymike

Guest
Originally posted by Oversoul
MikeyMike: Greaves could be great for protecting Negator, but if you're facing a deck with burn spells, you'd side out all Negators. So I'm not sure it's as potent...
Excellent point, and if you did try to sneak in Negator/Greaves vs. a burn deck the Greaves equip "as a sorcery" speed would likely bite you in the tookus.

What does Sui usually side in for burn decks?
 
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