sui black standardish build

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Gaea'sSaproling

Guest
lands/mana -26
18 Swamps/1 Strip Mine
4 wasteland
4 Dark rituals 1cc

beats - 12
4 Nantuko shade 2cc
4 phyrexian negator 3cc
4 hypnotic spectre 3cc
2 masticore 4cc/Necropotence and Yawgamoth's Will

disruption/go boom - 14
4 sinkhole 2cc
4 hymm to tourach 2cc
4 duress 1cc
2 Powder Keg 2cc

draw/broken - 6
4 night's whisper 2cc
2 Skeletal Scrying 1xcc/Demonc Tutor and Consultation

avg cost per spell = 2.56

cut two skeletals for 2 masticore its more of a late game card, u dont need 4 and nights whisper is better\

so far my decks geared prety much for a mixed meta and i dont think it should have much trouble, go ahead and critique some more.

i can believe i didnt have spectres in my list -.- cut carnophage for spectres
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
Since this thing has no chance in serious Type I...I mean Vintage...

Why not replace 5 card slots and convert it into a monster for Raisin...I mean the new 1.5?
 
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Gaea'sSaproling

Guest
hmmm nice idea... i need more drawing powers, i love 2 draw any good suggestions?
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
Well, you're already using Night's Whisper. That should be enough for Sui...

Something Necroish and not banned would be sweet, but I can't think of anything except Phyrexian Arena, which is a terrible card no matter what everyone who is not me claims!

Wait, actually, even though I hate it, I just thought of something...

Skeletal Scrying. I wish it were actually even worse than Snowfall, because I hate it, but it's good...
 
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Gaea'sSaproling

Guest
ure right, uber idea d00d, should i run 4? u want to draw into one as soon as possible
 
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Exaulted_Leader

Guest
You need:

- Cabal Therapy
- PoG (Priest of Gix)
- Unholy Strength
- Phyrexian War Beast
- Hypnotic Spectre
- Phyrexian Negator
- Probably a few Dauthi sticks (Slayer, predominently)

You need to get rid of:

- Carnophage (not good enough. It used to be a cornerstone of the deck, but now there's better things than a 2/2 with a drawback)
- Nantuko Shade (bad card altogether)
- Necropotence (AWESOME card; HORRIBLY bad synergy with this deck)
- Both tutors, and probably Yawgmoth's Will (see above; though I wouldn't even give Consultation the remark about awesomeness)
- The Wastelands. You're running a Strip Mine and a playset of Sinkholes. That's plenty of mana disruption.


Remember: Your goal is to wreck their hand, and drop a limited but powerful number of threats early-on - continuing to disrupt your opponent's situation so that they can't deal with their attackers. While cards like Necropotence are very attractive toolboxes, don't let them distract you from your objective.
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
I totally thought Hyppie was already in this list. Well, it probably needs to be...

Negator is already in though...

Dauthi Slayer with Unholy Strength is great fun...

Priest of Gix is so good, except when I'm playing with him, because whenever I draw him I get manaburned. But for everyone else he's nice...

If this is Raisin legal then unfortunately Strip Mine goes, and Wasteland probably stays...

I think Wasteland is the only card that I disagree with Leader on...

I've never seen Therapy in Suicide really, but I don't see why not. It is such a good card after all...
 
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Gaea'sSaproling

Guest
i disagree with him pretty much on everything, the priest of gix is a optimal choice.

phrexian warbeast is a awesome card BUT, it costs 3 and carnophage costs 1 which has better synergy with the shade while im able to pump+2/+2 and I can still drop a 2/2 threat

nantuko shade suck?! where have u been for the past 2 years?!

unholy strength -.- bleh. nantuko pumps, carnophage is a beatstick and so is negator, no need

necropotence was cut in order to make it 1.5 legal and its completly awesome in any deck with rituals, i dont know wut game u play but in mine drawing cards is always good ;D

yawgamoth's win, they call it that for a reason and demonic consultation was and still is the only acceptable tutor for suicide black besides demonic tutor.

cabal therapy is decent since it works well with duress, but how often are u gonna have duress and therapy in ure hand at the same time? id rather opt for blackmail, which i wont even put in, its a 1 for 1 discarder with no guessing and there hand count will be low already so pretty much they need to show ure there hand

thumbs down on everything but cabal therapy, priest of gix, phyrexian warbeast, ill tinker around with the build some more and alter list
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
Never tried Warbeast in Sui, can't speak for it...

Unholy Stength on Dauthi Slayer is a real game-winner. It's not bad at all...

Neither is Nantuko Shade, but what he was talking about, to be sure, was the fact that the Shade eats mana every turn to do extra damage...

A lot of people seem to think that Necro has no synergy with Sui. I don't know exactly what leads them to that conclusion. Card advantage is a good thing...

I don't see Therapy being as nice without its amazing flashback having a suitable victim (like Academy Rector). It's still worlds better than that awful Blackmail you mentioned. The only one-drop discard that would be better in this deck is Duress...

Never underestimate Demonic Consultation. I've had 40+ cards sitting in my RFG pile and it really doesn't mean much when I'm about to win. There are some games where you name a card of which three copies are left in your library and two of them are in the top six cards, while the third is at the very bottom, or something like that, but such games are rare compared to games where, let's face it, the card grabs ANYTHING at instant speed for a single mana...

If you use Carnophage, then you have to use Sarcomancy too, because it's such a cool card...
 
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Exaulted_Leader

Guest
Saproling:

Carnophage has - NO - synergy that Phyrexian War Beast doesn't have. It's an outmoded card. Dark Ritual and PoG mean that War Beast is still a one-drop in an optimal hand, while Carnophage actually just clutters most hands that would've been worth keeping. Not only that, but a 2/2 stick isn't hard to deal with anymore (especially if you haven't included Uholy Strength in the build).

Ritual + PoG + War Beast is nearly a guaranteed win. Does Carnophage have any sort of set-up that can do the same?


Oversoul knows exactly where I'm coming from with Unholy Strength. 'Hey, look - I only have one 'stick on the board, but there sure isn't anything you do to deal with it.'


Nantuko Shade is terrible. I don't really have much else to say. You're supposed to be using all that untapped land to drop Duress, additional threats, Sinkhole and Therapy - not to pump an evasionless stick that they're going to chump (then probably clean-out at the end of your turn, when you've tapped yourself out and the Shad eis back to 1 toughness).


CA is a good thing. The problem with Necro and Sui? They have contradictory objectives. Necro wants you to pay life to have access to CA. Sui wants you to pay life for tempo. When you'vce paid down to ten life for an insane Necro draw, what are you going to drop that'll win you the game as a result? You don't have access to Drain Life or Soul Feast, and you can't afford to soak-up some damage from counter-attacks anymore.

It's a bad gameplan. Necropotence is for decks that don't base their win condition around aggro.


Therapy is WAY TOO EFFING GOOD. I can't even count the ways. It establishes a whole ton of those 'You just win' scenarios right from the get-go. Ritual + PoG + Duress + Therapy + Flashback. You just win. Ritual + Duress + Duress + Therapy. You just win. Ritual + PoG + Therapy + Therapy + Flashback. You just win.

It's even more gross when you know what your opponent is playing. At it's worst, it's just another way to see what your opponent has to work with.


As for Yawmoth's Will and Consultation... I just don't see them as Sui black cards. Maybe I'm totally incorrect.
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
I think the life loss to Necro is affordable but I must concede that it depends on the build...

I think Leader has pretty much said anything negative that can be said about Nantuko Shade...

I've never seen Sui use Yawgmoth's Win either, so I don't know whether it could be good or not...

Consultation is fine for Sui though (you need a Sinkhole to keep the opponent crippled, or you need another Negator for a quick win, whatever, it doesn't matter how much of your library it eats as long as it's not going to deck you), but illegal in Raisin, and Sui can't hope to compete with Workshop decks or Gro-A-Tog, among other good Vintage decks, so it's just not viable there...

Edit: If forgot to mention that Shade is still a 2/1 attacker even without the pumping. I do not know whether it belongs or not. I would use it over Carnophage, certainly, but I guess I don't have enough experience with aggro to be certain here...
 
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Gaea'sSaproling

Guest
ive been studying different sui builds before building this deck and ive geared towards a mixed meta and i wont have u shove ure opinion down my throat that nantuko shade is a bad card, like oversoul said its still a 2/1 and when youve came close to emptying your hand its a ****ing beast.

because of your opinion that carnophage is outdated its still way better in a deck that is mana intensive with keeping its creatures abilities going strong

"Nantuko Shade is terrible. I don't really have much else to say. You're supposed to be using all that untapped land to drop Duress, additional threats, Sinkhole and Therapy - not to pump an evasionless stick that they're going to chump (then probably clean-out at the end of your turn, when you've tapped yourself out and the Shad eis back to 1 toughness"

lets say they do chump block it, there down 1 creature/card and ure still gaining advantage because you still have a creature on the board, and you only pump shade when you have the SPARE mana to, its not a priority, disruption is your priority.

Nantuko Shade is hands down the best PUMPABLE creature in MTG as it stands.

priest of gix is essentially a free 2/1 vanilla creature, not bad i really did think of adding it in and ill probably do it because it gives mana for skeletal scrying, masticore, and nantuko shade + additional threats.
 
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Exaulted_Leader

Guest
Wild Mongrel is a better pumper than 'Shade. Basking Rootwalla is a better pumper than shade. Psychatog is a better pumper than shade. Mindless Automaton is a better pumper than shade. Dungeon Shade is a better pumper than it's Nantuko successor.

...And the the list gets much bigger than that, trust me.


Woah. No need to get antagonistic. If you don't want to hear criticisms, cool. But make this apparent when you first post your deck.
 
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Gaea'sSaproling

Guest
i didnt mean pumper like that lol, i meant mana pumper and im not being WUTever u said lol, i just dont like my card choices repeatedly bashed when more then 90% t1 community agress that nantuko shade is shiznit status
 
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Tabasco

Guest
Nantuko Shade is not all that good....there another negative opinion...now u need to recalculate your percentage.

The deck is all cheap stuff to gain Tempo, however your mana is limited to begin with so unless you hand is empty you really wont be pumping your monster. Against a burn deck, Your shade is gone in 1.02 secs. not to mention the other many ways such as STP that can instantly remove it.

Necro is not for Sui.......It isnt even drawing. If you need a certain card on the current turn, unless it is an instant, you re not playing it until the next turn. Yawg's Bargain is drawing. necro is "setting aside for later use"

I think Questing Phelddagrif is a much better pumpable creature.

Look at all He can do...He will squash your stupid lil' shade in 3 secs FLAT!!

Oh wait there's also our friend Morphling

Oh wait what's That? The classicShivian Dragon

Nope He definitely sucks......soooo is your foot in your mouth yet?

Hey wait there's more.....not only are the three above creaures just as good, if not better "pumpables" but they all have flying too!

Oh look, there's lil'Shady sitting on the ground while your taking a beating by air.

The shade is but a flea...it's small and annoying, but easily dealt with. Any deck that is in this format will have ways around it.

What do you do if someone locks you up? How do you like your winter orb? This deck would be F'ed with a Capital F. You have no alternate mana producers, and generally lockdown decks such as orb play artifact mana so they are prepared.

My Hatred deck would have this deck hung in 5 seconds.
All I need to do is Nightmare Lash or Hatred a shadow creature and you are done.

Which also brings us to White Weenies. Alot of them have pro black......sorry this deck fails again....With Mutha of Runes on the watch and STP as removal, your deck is helpless.

P.S. since when is Basking Rootwalla's pump not mana-based?

He gets +3/+3 for only 1G

....but wait, that same pump would cost the "Super-shade" BBB

Hmmmm looks like the Rootwalla has him beat, and hes only a common. Hey and Madness would rip this deck up to btw.

I think you should think of ways to deal with problem decks rather than protect the morallity of your "precious" little Shade.

Good luck!!! Happy Building
 
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Gaea'sSaproling

Guest
lol! ok, so some casual players think shade is weak, i dont really care, hes still in the list

NANTUKO SHADE

Since Torment became legal in March, this has become the most important card in the Suicide Black archetype. Nantuko Shade is the most significant addition to Type I since Invasion?s Fact or Fiction. My Legend Black deck, which I regard as the optimal Suicide Black variant available at this moment, immediately made use of this card to devastating effect. Ultimately, this brought about the acceptance of a new Suicide creature base with Nantuko Shade at its center. Initially, this beast was misunderstood by numerous ?experts? who felt that it would be too ?slow? for Suicide Black. How wrong they were. In several short months, Nantuko Shade has taken its place as the second-best creature in Type I, right behind the great Morphling.

Early on, Nantuko Shade is decent, generally attacking for two or three. But Nantuko Shade becomes a nightmare for your opponent as you reach four or five black mana in play. They will either remove it, or quickly succumb to vicious six and seven point attacks. If a game actually turns into a long topdecking struggle, Nantuko Shade gives Suicide Black the staying power that it has been desperately looking for, swelling into a huge powerhouse that will bring the game to an abrupt and startling end with a nine or ten point attack. Indeed, Nantuko Shade increases Suicide?s strength in topdecking mode, since if you draw a Nantuko Shade before the enemy draws their answer, they may just not get another chance to draw that answer, being that the game may just end right then and there on your next attack phase.

It is my opinion that Morphling is the defining non-restricted card of Type I, being that it is the finisher of control decks everywhere. Previously, Morphling on the table with a decent supply of mana meant a definite game over for Suicide. Not so anymore, as Nantuko Shade will become large enough to turn the almighty Morphling into mere blocking fodder. The presence of Nantuko Shade will also result in more game one wins against aggressive decks such as Sligh, since backed up by a little disruption, one Nantuko Shade can single-handedly eat another aggressive deck alive.

Nantuko Shade is now the defining card of the Suicide archetype. It allows you to do things you never could do before with this deck. Four Nantuko Shades are a must in any Suicide Black deck. If you refuse to use Nantuko Shade in Suicide Black, then you deserve to be horribly stung by an agitated swarm of killer bees, resulting in horrible swelling and allergic reactions that cause you to stop breathing.

from TMD
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
Firstly, that was clearly copied and pasted. Put it in quote marks or something. You did put "from TMD" at the bottom, but that's really tacky.

Secondly, why do you use "lol" in every one of your paragraphs? What's so incredibly funny?

Thirdly, that thing is so obviously outdated. No one has won a serious Vintage tourney with Suicide black for some time now. Morphling doesn't see much use in the format either, these days. That thing HAS to be either well over a year (probably more that that) old or written by someone who is not very well informed...

Fourthly, I do not see what's so bad about a 2/1 pumpable creature for only BB. It's not as good as something like Hypnotic Specter or Phyrexian Negator. It costs more money than it's worth. Comparing it to Pheldagriff is way too hyperbolic though...

Whether the Shade belongs in Suicide or not, such gross exaggerations aren't useful to anyone...

Tabasco: Why are you telling us what Necro does? I think everyone here is already familiar with the card...
 
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Gaea'sSaproling

Guest
the primer was really outdated and suicideblack isnt even tier 2 in vintage anymore, none the less u cant bash a card that historically has had so much success
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
Actually I can...

Let me think...

What was it?

Didn't Recall use to have a lot of success? I'll bash that presently if you'd like...
 
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Gaea'sSaproling

Guest
still a optimal card choice, can u reccomend anything better? besdies priest of gix and phyrexian wb?
 
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