School Shootings?

[Spiderman]

Well, I'm not sure what you're saying now. It seems most of what you have described is the "utopian" or ultimate goal, which is fine, but when do you expect to see any of it happen? Did you see the report that drug use among teenagers is on the rise, especially marajuana and Ecstacy? After all the 80's ads about Just Say No and drug use dipping through the late 80's to early 90's, it's on the rise again. That's only 10 years! As political people get into power, priorities change and funding changes. Laws change. Heck, Clinton wanted to have pardons go through him instead of the Justice Department after it's been done that way for however many years! And now Bush is reverting (I think) back to the old way of doing things...

My point is that you need a massive shift of public opinion NOW to do anything, and that's not going to happen. Period. Look at Columbine... schools instituted No Tolerance policies and just two years later have to revise/rethink them because of kids carrying over the counter drugs or trying to help out by taking away weapons from others and instead getting charged for it.

Honesty follows responsibility, which follows discipline... there was just a report on why people lie on Dateline last night. People were getting caught on tape for ignoring a 35 CENT TOLL and when confronted, STILL DENIED IT! Which carried a $75 fine and a ticket... And I'm sure (going out on a limb here) most of those people are pretty responsible and disciplined.

Sure, part of the problems are parents. No disagreement there. But let's not blind ourselves in thinking that's the ONLY problem. The problem could be you and me, not getting involved when we should. The problem could be politicians. The problem could be media influence. The problem could be all of those put together.

 

[Hetemti]

Well, I'm not sure what you're saying now. It seems most of what you have described is the "utopian" or ultimate goal, which is fine, but when do you expect to see any of it happen? My point is that you need a massive shift of public opinion NOW to do anything, and that's not going to happen. Period.

I may not live to see it, but either things will get much better, or things will get much worse. Oh, and TV didn't tell you, but public opinion is shifting BIG TIME.

Heck, Clinton wanted to have pardons go through him instead of the Justice Department after it's been done that way for however many years! And now Bush is reverting (I think) back to the old way of doing things...

Don't get me started on Clinton & Clinton...a clown who commits adultery and fellatio in the OVAL OFFICE and a mafia mamma who ordered the deaths...er...suicides...of anyone who posed a threat to her schemes.
BTW, the "pardons" were another abuse of YOUR great nation.

...schools instituted No Tolerance policies and just two years later have to revise/rethink them because of kids carrying over the counter drugs or trying to help out by taking away weapons from others and instead getting charged for it.

The No Tolerance policies were nothing but knee-jerk, overreactive, slap-shod, quick-fix solutions. Of course they failed.

...People were getting caught on tape for ignoring a 35 CENT TOLL and when confronted, STILL DENIED IT! Which carried a $75 fine and a ticket... And I'm sure (going out on a limb here) most of those people are pretty responsible and disciplined.

I'm not them, but obviously they weren't responsible. They failed to pay the toll.
I love that "I'm sure (going out on a limb here)" bit.

Sure, part of the problems are parents. No disagreement there. But let's not blind ourselves in thinking that's the ONLY problem. The problem could be you and me, not getting involved when we should. The problem could be politicians. The problem could be media influence. The problem could be all of those put together.

Our current society is the root of the problem. Remember, one irresponsible generation begts another, more corrupted one. This is why these problems are escallating and multiplying. The 60's and 70's generation was irresponsible, and look what they produced? the 80's/90's generation which is immoral? What will they produce? The inhuman?

Well learn soon enough.

 

[Spiderman]

'Reply with Quote' didn't copy all of your post! I've got to cut-n-paste manually...

I may not live to see it, but either things will get much better, or things will get much worse. Oh, and TV didn't tell you, but public opinion is shifting BIG TIME.

Personally, I think it will stay about the same (since you said "much"). How is public opinion shifting? And don't forget, public opinion is not necessarily reflected in laws...

Don't get me started on Clinton & Clinton...a clown who commits adultery and fellatio in the OVAL OFFICE and a mafia mamma who ordered the deaths...er...suicides...of anyone who posed a threat to her schemes.
BTW, the "pardons" were another abuse of YOUR great nation.

Not sure if you mean Clinton's pardons or pardons in general. Because there's lots of cases where presidents have used pardons to get off their buddies. Just that apparently most of THOSE went through the "proper" channels.

MY great nation? Where are you again? And I don't want this to turn into a debate on whose nation is the best, but I'd still pick this one over any others.

The No Tolerance policies were nothing but knee-jerk, overreactive, slap-shod, quick-fix solutions. Of course they failed.

Soo... if they were the quick-fix, how long do you think it will take to implement YOUR ideas if you were in charge? They were basically what you propose in general: a solution to a problem. If they took the time to craft it right, if another incident occurred (which is very likely, although I don't have a timeframe in front of me ), then they'd get lambasted for NOT having ANY policy. It's a Catch-22 kind of; either you get something quick so you have something in place, or you take your time doing it and leave the door open for more incidents anyway.

I'm not them, but obviously they weren't responsible. They failed to pay the toll.

Um, so it appears we're holding the standard of being responsible in every way, for EVERY human being. Already discussed the impossibility of it, no matter how you're raised.

Our current society is the root of the problem. Remember, one irresponsible generation begts another, more corrupted one. This is why these problems are escallating and multiplying. The 60's and 70's generation was irresponsible, and look what they produced? the 80's/90's generation which is immoral? What will they produce? The inhuman?

I agree to an extent but also disagree. I think people generally "rebel" or go contrary against what is current, and if the 60's/70's led to an irresponsible generation (which is vague in of itself), I don't think it's led to an 80's/90's generation that is immoral. Rather it's led to a desire for a more stable lifestyle (and I guess material). But I doubt that would led to an "inhuman" generation.

Going off on a slight tangent, I agree more personal responsibility would be nice, given that we (or the US) has become a more litigous nation, giving rise to the Blame Game and Point Fingers. That front can be attacked by curtailing such lawsuits and making people responsible for their actions there...

 

[Daggertooth]

Originally posted by Cateran Emperor
Re: Daggertooth
Sure, the materials for pipebombs are fairly common. But remember when they searched the Columbines' kids rooms afterwards? Strewn about in plain view were weapons, ammunition, bomb-making materials, and even a journal of what they were planning. Did the parents never even once stop to think of this.

That's just one isolated example of the most extreme incident available. Statistically speaking, you can't compare the entire data (school shootings) with one extremely skewed incident. That's like taking the salary of all those who dropped out of college, throughing in Bill Gates, and using it to show how you don't need college education to get a high salary.

Most shooting incidents aren't well planned. They usually involve an emotionally stressed kid that "has had enough." And all the while the parents think they are raising an A+ kid.

It is human nature to try to find blame in a tragedy. The statement "School shootings are the result of neglectful parents" is just a manifestation of this lamebrain tendency. It is the accumulation of all the stressful factors in a teens life that drives them over the edge. Changing one of the factors will only slow the problem slightly, if anything at all.

I still tend to believe it is more the individuals social status that plays the largest role in these acts of violence.


Daggertooth

 

[Riva Iron-Grip]

Here's my thoghts on the subject. first....the kids who do this BS are total idiots. they never study something. if i was doing a school shooting. i would study the reaction time for the police, i would study all of the schedules of the students and teachers. and i wouldn't be in the school, i would be like on a rooftop with a damn sniper rifle. i am a pretty damn good shot too. but i had to be in the school, i wouldn't use pistols. HELLO. use m4's and some mp5's. not this crap ppl are using. plus, wear armor, helmets,and dress up like a swat member, so when you're coming out, you could say that you were helping them. DUh. plus, if you want to do a school shooting. dont do it during school. do it just as school gets out. or dont even do a school shooting. go down to a bank, or a store. schools are being way too protected now adays. but whatever. thta's my take. i think that ppl who do school shootings are either smart, or really stupid. they talk about killing themselves. but hell no. if you're going to kill yourself, kill lots of damn students, and kill at least some damn cops. dont go wussy. sheit, the kids nowadays are ***. plus, columbine wasn't a massacre. only 13 kids were killed. i would kill like 200. not 13...that's stupid. then they killed themselves. but the kids deserved it. they didn't leave the 2 guys alone. well, byebye. time to go kill kids. hehe

 

[Daggertooth]

That's a very disturbing mentality you've got there. I won't say too much as I see your post as completely stupid, and any response a waste of time.

School shootings are nothing to joke about. In fact, With no tolerance policies the way they are, if your teachers got wind of that last post you would be expelled instantly, no questions asked.

What do you mean 13 is not a massacre? With all the bombs and ammo the columbine kids had that school was lucky to only lose 13. Not to mention that kind of loss of life due to school violence was never before seen nor has it been replicated. (although some have tried)

After columbine, many students that thought "I could do better than those idiots" attempted many copycat events. be careful how you jest. It could get you in trouble.

oh, check your grammar and spelling, I had a hard time trying to understand you in some parts.

Daggertooth

 

[Zadok001]

Disturbing indeed - I understand your points in general, but honestly, that type of message is somewhat questionable. I'm not gonna do anything, just say that said message is pushing the boundries...

 

[Duel]

Well, over the weekend someone came to our school and fired a single bullet through the front doors. We have the lowest violence rate of any school in the district. I seriously doubt it was a student, but just to tell you, it can happen anywhere.

 

[Riva Iron-Grip]

disturbing? oh please. alright, fine then, grammar and spelling will be used right this post.

1.) First, these kinds of topics are supposed to be disturbing. To think that noone has a dark side, not even the pope, is a stupid thing to believe in. For over 400 years, we massacred jews. Now, the jews are massacreing the palastinians.

2.) To say that you've never been angry enough to blow the brains out of someone, or even bash them till they are coughing blood, is a lie. Everyone has been there. I personally knew klebold, and the other kid. didn't know his name...we called him jack( dont know why). all through school, starting with elementary, they were picked on and teased. They tried to get their anger out by making videos, and websites, but it didn't work. They got angrier everyday. Then they started to make bombs, and collect weapons, but they never really wanted to use them. Then one day, a stupid assed jock, walked up, and shoved klebold into a locker, took his leather jacket, threw it into the trash, and kick klebold in the chest. i tried to help him, but i couldn't. the jocks friends were holding me and jack back. trust me, those people deserved what they got. everyone picked on them. when the shooting started, i wanted to get up and ask them for a gun to help, but they said that they didn't want to get me into trouble, so they did it on their own. When the jock walked away, klebold calmed down, and started to cry. They were nice guys, but when you've been picked on since kindergarten, your mentality can only go so far. The only people who didn't pick on jack and klebold were the mormans. They were smart not to pick on them.
Trust me, the adrenaline rush was exhilirating. The bloodshed was even better. Now, most of the people who died begged for mercy, but klebold asked if they were sorry for what they did, and they said yes, so he shot them for lying. Sure, i think what happened there was sad, but the kids at school should've stopped a long time ago when they started to see the signs of klebolds and jacks actions. No, i'm not a nazi, or a white supremicist. But, i think that anything that can push us to the edge needs to be stopped.

You say that guns need to be taken away from those who could be dangerous with them, then you need to take the instigators away from the school. The three of us were very depressed when we had to go to school that day, but it had to be done. Most of the people killed were religious. I just hope that there is a heaven and hell. So those who did repent were sent to heaven. I don't believe in a god. I beleve in nothing.

The black kid who got his head blown off, deserved it. He was with us since the second grade. and every friday since the fourth grade, he would spill milk in jacks lap, take his books from his backpack, and hide them in a trash can around school. Then, he would beat him up occasionally, to try and show girls that he was tuff. He was a f***ed up bitch. yes it is sad, but whatever. we all die, and it was karma that he got his early.

Lates

[Edited for profanity - TomB]

 

[TomB]

Here we go again...

Please watch your language pal, and the sexual orientation slurs gotta go too. If you do it again you're outta here for good this time.

And it's interesting to hear you say that you knew those guys personally. That explains a lot...

 

[Lotus Mox]

I agree with Riva, they deserved what they got.

ppl should realize that noone will just kill someone because he thinks its cool or something, there are always more reasons. Like yellowjacket said you shouldn't pick on guys just because they are strange.

Luckily (or not, depending on your point of view) here in Germany it's much harder to get any weapons and other stuff w/o the police noticing. I know that there were such massacres planned in Germany but they were always foiled by police before they could go off.

 

[Spiderman]

This has suddenly taken a disturbing trend...

like Zadok said, I don't think Riva's post should be taken out if anyone has complained or reported it. It's "interesting" to hear the dark side.

But personally, NO ONE DESERVES GETTING KILLED. You getting picked on? What happened to "meet me after school behind the gym building" for a beatdown? You take a life AND THAT'S PERMANENT. Finito. End of existence as we currently know it. And it affects more people than you'll ever know...

Yeah, getting beat up on sucks. It hurts. It's annoying and frustrating as Lucifer's realm. But there are SO many other options to deal with than taking someone's life. So Klebold and the other kid never complained to their parents? Why didn't they get transferred to another school/state, if it's been happening since elementary school?

So now can the parents of those killed stand up Klebold and co. and blow them away since their kids were killed? Because I guarantee with that kind of attitude, of "getting what they deserve", that's what you're implying and would probbably feel if in 20 years that happened to your kid. Which is why we have these problems in the first place...

 

[Lotus Mox]

You getting picked on? What happened to "meet me after school behind the gym building" for a beatdown?

Yeah get beaten up again whoooohooo!!

Moving into another school can help them, but usually never does, if they are outsiders in one school they are outsiders in most others.
Getting picked on can also strenghten the shizoid aspect of personalities, which turns into an inability to react adequatly to aggression, which leads to such disasters.

NO ONE DESERVES GETTING KILLED

I'm not saying that killing someone is the right solution, (I think it's completely wrong BTW) but in the USA where the death penalty is considered acceptable (ask your president) this argument holds no ground.

Finally I think that it was mostly their own fault or the fault of society in general that they got shot.

 

[Spiderman]

Moving into another school can help them, but usually never does, if they are outsiders in one school they are outsiders in most others.
Getting picked on can also strenghten the shizoid aspect of personalities, which turns into an inability to react adequatly to aggression, which leads to such disasters.

Frankly, any attempt at a solution to alleviate the problem is better than murder. Yeah, moving to one school might not change things. And then again, it might. Outsiders at one school can mean or NOT mean being outsiders in another school. From what Riva describes, if they were picked on since elementary school, then it sounds like they just became the kicking bag for those who grew up with them. If they moved, then at least they don't have that history with their new peers.

I'm not saying that killing someone is the right solution, (I think it's completely wrong BTW) but in the USA where the death penalty is considered acceptable (ask your president) this argument holds no ground.

I'm not sure why the President has to do with anything: he doesn't make the laws and (this is probably for another discussion), like most things (like abortion) there are as many proponents and opponents to a view. Just because it's legal now does not mean it will be legal forever. And when I say cold blooded murder, it's MY view, not the US. And generally speaking, I actually support the death penalty, for the way I view it, once someone has crossed the line and killed someone, then they themselves are thus marked to be unworthy of life (NOTE: this is GENERALLY speaking, circumstances and cases are looked at more specifically).

Finally I think that it was mostly their own fault or the fault of society in general that they got shot

So is they here? The shooters or the victims?

 

[Baron Sengir]

I don't feel sorry for any one of those sick little bastards that were not intelligent enough to cope with their problems any other way than violence.

You got picked on at school? Big freakin' deal. So did I. So did almost everyone.

When I grew up, from middle school to high school, I was the punching bag. I got the snot kicked out of me on a couple of occasions. I know what it's like to have milk poured on you in the lunchroom in front of the entire school. I know the feeling of hating people and dreading going to school.

I found ways to deal with it. Murder is the coward's way out. They're not strong enough to handle what happens to millions of kids on a daily basis so the weak little bastards cop out.

No kid should ever be humiliated or beaten up at school. It's a place for education not degredation. Unfortunately it's not a perfect world. Stuff happens. It happened to me. Big deal. I'm not gonna act like a martyr about it because there is worse stuff appening in this world than some kid getting milk poured on his head.

I think that any of those school shooters are spineless wastes of human existence but my hat's off to any kid who realizes that the best revenge on those go-nowhere, mindless troglodytes that constantly beat you down just so their self esteem improves, is to graduate and become a success in life. They might seem to have the upper hand now but in the long run ...

I remain
The Baron
revenge is best served cold

 

[Lotus Mox]

Wasn't the president (G.W.Bush) not some guy in texas who killed (don't flame me for this, it's like saying "Soldiers are Killers", whether this is valid or not doesn't belong to this thread) many people via the death penalty?

I agree with you that moving to another school probably would've helped and if the school would be far enough away, it could even have solved the problem for klebold. But I think that would've proven the soon-to-be-shot ppl that it is right to pick on others if they don't like them, and they would've continued with the next one they don't like. "So why not shoot them and solve this problem forever?"

That it is shown in the USA that it is possible that people are unworthy to live doesn't help. as is the easy access to weapons. I was also the punching bag at school and there were moments that if someone would've given me a weapon and said "kill'em" I would've shot them, but these were mere moments when it really got extreme (That's probably why I'm ´so biased)

Baron I agree the murders were cowards but weren't the people who turned the shooter's world into hell cowards too? Picking on weak people is very cowardly in my book.

 

[Spiderman]

Wasn't the president (G.W.Bush) not some guy in texas who killed (don't flame me for this, it's like saying "Soldiers are Killers", whether this is valid or not doesn't belong to this thread) many people via the death penalty?

I'm not sure I'm understanding what you're saying. Are you asking if Bush prosecuted people and sought the death penalty? And his cases that succeeded and the people convicted and put to death had the greatest percentage or something?

I agree with you that moving to another school probably would've helped and if the school would be far enough away, it could even have solved the problem for klebold. But I think that would've proven the soon-to-be-shot ppl that it is right to pick on others if they don't like them, and they would've continued with the next one they don't like. "So why not shoot them and solve this problem forever?"

Um, so is that the solution to all of life's problems? If someone screwed me over for a promotion, I get to shoot him? If someone let their dog poop all over my lawn, I get to shoot him? Since I'm disagreeing with you here, do you get to shoot me?

It may have shown the bullies that their way is justified. On the other hand, no one says they have to know the reasons on why they moved. They may suspect, but for all they know the parents got transferred from work.

Picking on weak people is very cowardly in my book.

Sure that's cowardly. I don't disagree that beating up/picking on people is right either. I'm not saying the bullies were angels. But it's how you DEAL with the problem that matters and will show how you can handle life's adversity in the future. That's really the point, I think.

 

[Daggertooth]

The punishment should fit the crime. The Babylonians knew what they were talking about when they said "eye for an eye."


A bully has not committed any crime. Yes he was a jerk and deserves some sort of punishment, but death. C'mon. that's too extreme. And to agree that they deserved it is twisted an sad.

Have I ever been bullied before. Yes. I remember one incident where my bully saw me on Halloween. I knew him as a bully and feared him. I stopped what I was doing and just stood by a house waiting to see what would happen. He walked up to me smiling, grabbed my head, bashed it painfully against a brick wall a few times. then walked away.

I was angry. And yes I wanted nothing more than to beat him up. Perhaps in the heat of anger even kill him. But would he deserve to die? no. Of course not.

Who are you do say who deserves to die and who deserves to live? These pitiful gunslinging murderers should not be praised for their cowardly actions. Yes bullying is an act of cowardice, but bringing a gun in is much worse.

 

[Lotus Mox]

they got what they deserved, that's a rule of life: you get what you deserve, even from wrong things you did in your former lifes.

Disclaimer: This is of course just my belief, you may disagree.

 

[Daggertooth]

They got what they deserved?!? Yes I disagree with that belief. It's seems to me more like a lamebrain Idea to justify the murder of anyone you dislike. Sure go out and kill someone. Your just dishing out proper punishment to some individual that was obviously a hardcore criminal in a past life.


I know I'm being rude here but c'mon. You're basically justifying the acts of violence in this world by saying "they deserved it." The Jews being persecuted because they were evil in a past life, Carthage being destroyed because the entire population was evil in a past life. And what does that make those who have committed the crime? Saviors? For ridding the world of those who have been evil previously?

Seriously, I wont to know your take on that last question.

Daggertooth