School Shootings?

[FoundationOfRancor]

With recent events to refresh old memories, what are your thoughts about current and past school shootings?

 

[terzarima]

What are we supposed to think? That this was an isolated incident? I think Bush should take this as a reason to ban some guns, or to tell the stupid parents that have guns, to hide them, burn them, or hide the ammo!!

 

[Daggertooth]

Banning Guns or hiding guns will not solve anything.

First off Banning guns will never happen, the N.R.A. is much too powerful. Besides, banning guns only keep guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens. Nothing more. And those who feel threatened by the outside world feel safer with guns. Although it is true that guns bought for protection are often the cause of accidents.

Hide your gun? that's a laugh. The most recent shooting in California involved a gun that was locked up. Supposedly where the kid could not get it. My dad also owned a gun. He hid safely away, or so he thought. I knew where it was, although that knowledge was irrelevant to me.

And hiding bullets makes the gun useless as a defensive tool. Of course you could try to bluff your way, but if worse comes to worse you'll be putting out blanks while the intruder is filling you full of lead.





The only real way to solve this problem is to totally altar society. To remove the desensitizing bloodbaths that are out TV's. To be more tolerant. And to show that Solving problems though violence in not tolerated.

Since I can't see any of that ever happening, people have to keep an eye out for the warning signs. As always, a person inclined to do violent acts will most likely brag, or warn, about it. (in high school related incidents) If we would not push these threats aside as mere jokes these incidents Should decrease dramatically. As of yet that is the most probable solution to the problem.


Daggertooth

 

[terzarima]

If you are saying remove all the violent films and television shows, I don't beleive that it would matter. People will still have a violent nature.

And hey, if you get rid of your ammo (Take it to a police station) They'll take it for you, easy.

And how many people would walk up in front of you, give you time to pull a gun on them when they already have a gun out. Stupid, honestly, and how many stickups are there in the U.S? Probably far less than the amount of people robbing places with weapons.

 

[Killer Joe]

First of all, we can all start by doing our best to supress the urge to impress our friends by making fun of the kid who's a little odd because he doesn't dress cool, or maybe needs a little help in the personal hygiene dept., or isn't exactly a chick magnet, or who forgets to untap their lands on their turn (well, that's really annoying).
You know, it's kinda odd that most of these shooters (victims, really), are described as loners and/or quiet types, why is that? Well, one reason could be that not too many people these days are willing to stick thier neck out and befriend someone, or, are just afraid to get out of their 'comfort zone' and be nice to everyone (even Femnazi's ).
Gun Control vs Freedom of Ownership, either way we should all do our best to get ourselves into the proper dome thinking and realize that taking your frustrations out on another human being via gun shooting is WRONG!!!!!!!
If you're the victim of nuclear wedgies by jocks and the likes, don't go home and get a gun, go talk to an adult who cares about kids ie Mom & Dad, Guidance counslers, teachers, etc...
I do not own a gun, I never will, and no one can make me!

 

[terzarima]

Well, never say never... WE could make you own a gun if we tied you up and held you at gun-point... not that I own a gun of course

I know that this is the wrong thing to do, but it humors me so People at band think I'm a crazed psychotic killer, because I had a swiss army knife on me (For some odd reason) and I brought a picture of smiley the psychotic button to band (Jeez, people these days... always think your crazy CRAZY!!!) But I've been picked on for being smarter than everyone at my old school, and even though I could beat the crap out of them, I didn't...

I think that the most important thing to do in a circumstance like this is to use common sense.

 

[Baron Sengir]

The parents of these children have to take much of the blame. What was up with Dylan Klebold's parents that they didn't see he had f*cking pipe bombs and nazi paraphenalia in his room? People try to blame society and music for what's wrong with kids today when most of the problems nowadays come from the home. Doom didn't make Columbine happen. Neither did KMFDM or Marilyn Manson. Parents not taking the time to see that their kids were into nazism is the real culprit.

Adults need to pay attention to kids but kids need to be more responsible as well. There's always gonna be that one freaky kid in school that's into weird stuff but if it sounds even remotely dangerous, each student has the duty to report it, no matter how 'uncool' that person might think they are. Dead is dead.

I remain
The Baron
Disliking violence

 

[Hetemti]

As far back as I can remember, I knew my parents had a gun in the house. A .357 with six hollowpoint mag rounds.

I knew what it was.
I knew where it was.
I knew what it could do.

I didn't care.

It never entered "my" world. It was where it was and I was not to go there.

Why?

Because I knew that going anywhere near it would land me, to quote Colonel Hartman, in a World of Shit.

Not toenail level, as in up-to-one's-eyeballs.


What's the difference betwixt me and these...other beings refered to as our nations' future™?

Dicipline.

Children today aren't raised by parents. It's parent if they're lucky, but usually it's TV. In TV the guy who shoots the "bad" guy is the "good" guy. Whaddya know? That kid in Calif. shot the "bad" guys who taunted him. Shouldn't he be the "good" guy now?

Humm?

Part two: The youth of today do not fear Repercussions of doing wrong. They do not know the meaning of being in the World of Shit™. They get time outs and a finger shaking, followed by parental apollogy and ice cream.

What's wrong with this picture?

They don't fear the wrath of their parents. And don't you f'n dare to give me the bleading-heart "you can't rule by fear" crap, because you don't know what you say. Parenting and Ruling are two different words for a reason. To parent, you do not Rule by fear, you Guide by it.

I have come reasonably close to proving that the brain doesn't function until puberty. Before this time, there is only native reactions and instinct. Humans happen to have an instict to learn. These insticts are governed by simple reactions. Guess what has the biggest reaction.

Fear.

Not fear of being controled or beaten severely, but the kind encountered in simple, basic decision making.

"Go near gun=get spanked" is the same to the infantile brain as "fall down=get owie" and "touch fire=hot+ouch". Dicipline is merely programming in these simple algorithims, plus a few others, like "do homework=good grade", "good grade=magic cards", "kill others=go to jail", and "respect others=not get punched".

If this chile had been diciplined, this would never had happened.
Had the bullies that tormented him been diciplined, this would never had happened.

 

[Daggertooth]

The parents are not solely to blame. In most cases the parents had no idea. That last California shooting had a kid that snuck out of his house with the gun. Even though it was locked. Of course domestic issues are often part of the problem. I just don't think that every victim should jump at the unsuspecting parents with cries of anguish and lawsuits.

The thing is everyone is trying hard to find THE thing that is causing all the violence. But it is not one thing. it is many different factors. Poor Domestic relationships, desensitizing entertainment, educational conflicts, and arcade gun training all contribute to this trend of violence.


Daggertooth

 

[Spiderman]

I pretty much agree with Daggertooth and YJ; there's just too many factors to isolate any causes behind school shootings.

I do think guns are more readily available and people are more apt to use them, as opposed to fistfights.

Hetemti: How have you "come reasonably close" to proving the brain doesn't function until puberty? There was an interesting article in the Washington Post on Tuesday, 3/13 about brain research. Here it is: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/education/A59598-2001Mar12.html

 

[nodnarb24]

Hetemti: I don't dicipline is the answer for guns. If you own a gun and you are a parent, educate you children about the topic. Go out to state forests or something and let them shoot it at a tree or something. This teaches the kids to respect the weapon. That's what my parents did with me and I'm not going to shoot up my classmates. If you dicipline them and forbid them not to got near the gun then they will end up rebelling against your authority.

 

[Hetemti]

I don't dicipline is the answer for guns.

You don't? Oh, and when was there a question?

If you own a gun and you are a parent, educate you children about the topic...This teaches the kids to respect the weapon.

That is dicipline.

If you dicipline them and forbid them not to got near the gun then they will end up rebelling against your authority.

You were taught to crap in the john and not in your pants, right? Sorry to break it to you, but that's a form of dicipline. I think you are misinterpreting in two ways:

1) You are reading "dicipline" as overt beatings, rather than controled behaviour. That's what TV told you. Guess what? TV lies. TV has it's own agenda....anyway, that's like reading "discriminating" as someone who hates other groups. Again, that's what TV told you. To be "discriminating" means to be one who activly chooses the best of all they interact with, be it friends, clothes, entertainment, etc. Political Correctness has corrupted this nation's language, minds, and cultures. It truly is a sad day.

[/digression]

2) To not forbid a child is lunacy. Is it wise to allow children to run wild at the quarry? The construction site? In a medical facility? No, their presence is permissible only if properly supervised. By parents, preferably. The same is true of any armory, be it a military warehouse, the pistol under the mattress, or the kitchen drawer, for that matter.

 

[Zadok001]

I have a slightly different viewpoint. While most of what everyone else has said coincides with my views at least to some extent, I feel there is a deeper problem at hand. It stems from TV.

You have no idea what I'm about to say. Remember that, while I say it. You think you know, but you haven't a clue.

"Desensitized?" Not likely. I don't know what cause Columbine to happen. I doubt it was Doom, or Maryiln Manson, or similar influences, but it doesn't really matter - Because I know what caused most, if not all, of the remaining school shootings. Columbine did.

"Boy Shoots Classmates!"

"Shooting In Columbine!"

"~insert name~ Fires On Fellow Students!"

Whoops. There's the problem, right there. What is it that loners desire most? Respect. What is repect to them? Popularity. Those who are respected are popular. The most respected people are household names, the names everyone knows. So, what's the best way to become a household name, and by relation, be respected, popular, and famous?

I don't know what the best way is. But the fastest is right in front of them. Some random kid, who no one ever heard of, shoots up his school and gets plastered all over newspapers and TV sets across the nation. THAT'S popularity. And you won't find a faster way to get it. Quick, shoot everyone!

I think the problem lies two-fold, ignoring the pyschosis and problems in the child themselves.

#1. Glamourizing of shootings. Thousands of headlines on the shootings, usually talking about the killer, rather than the victims. The killer gets the headline space.

#2. Slow justice. These kids shoot someone, and for 6 months, get "Dum, de, dum, courtroom time!" No direct and instant punishment. It doesn't look like anything BAD is happening to the kid, at least not in the headlines! Just more "Shootings!" headlines, more reasons to become famous. No reasons not to.

I believe there is good in everyone. But people need to be shown not just the what happens, but the reasons why it shouldn't.

 

[Cateran Emperor]

I'd have to back Hetemi on this one. America's youth are plagued with a lack of discipline. I long ago to be reliant on myself. My parents did such a good job raising me that they almost never interfere with things I do, they know I can handle it. I always have.

These kids though, they did not benefit from an active parental presence. Granted, the finger is pointed a little too quickly at the parents, but they are the root of the problem, like it or not. I'm more than a little enraged by the parents outcrying that they "didn't know" that their child was building pipebombs in his room or the garage or wherever. Do they not pay attention to him at all? That further alienates the child, simply complicating the matter yet further.

Now for something that I hope many of the other gamers here are in agreement with.

The media does not cause violence. Video games do not cause violence. Music is, in my mind, the most likely medium to instigate violence.

When you play a game like 'Quake', do you go out and shoot random people for no reason? I know I don't.

There is only one reason people play video games: to let off fury. I know that I am more than capable of drawing a weapon and attacking someone with it. But I don't. Between discipline and video games, I've learned to channel the rage that builds up from dealing with some people into virual dragon slaying and the like.

Music can be another story. More often than not, people listen to a certain kind of music to embrace the entire cultrue and ideas behind it. Music has a strength behind it in one fashion: it is rythmic. Something with rythm has far more impact than something that doesn't. The mind has an easier time grasping and analyzing the message of a song than it does of a game. This can lead to someone more firmly believing something than they did previously.

Just something to think about.

 

[Daggertooth]

You ask, "how can the parent not know?"
Does your parent know everything about you? It is easy to keep stuff from your parents. From what I heard, the individuals in the columbine incident were well behaved upperclass students. Most parents trust "Their" kids are not capable of such a horrendous act, but some are. Even if a parent considered the possibility it would be instantly removed from their mind. "Not my kid."

"What about the bomb making material?" Do you know what it takes to make a pipe bomb? Well, I don't, but I do know how to make fertilizer bombs and napalm. My parents probably wouldn't think twice if they found bags of Styrofoam lying around my room and diesel fuel in the garage. but those are the tools for napalm.

The thing is parents who did not know in most cases did not know. They could be the best parents with a bright kid. And never expect they were raising a killer.


I do view the media as one of the problems. All the violence teaches us that it is acceptable. And it is. If a fight breaks out a cheering crowd soon forms with praise to the winner. And those shooting games have a lot to do with violence. The very least it does is teach a person to avoid pulling the trigger more than once per target. There was a study done recently. (I'll have to ask my human development professor where he got it) It showed that children were more prone to violence after watching TV. (if you want I can give more details later)



The idea behind popularity is a good theory. I'm more inclined to believe that they just want to go out with a bang. A depressed individual often gets angry at his surrounding. The sweet call of revenge. The surprise of the bully's face when his passive little whooping boy pulls the trigger into his face. That is what I think drives school shootings.

Daggertooth

 

[Spiderman]

If Zadok's conclusion was that people shoot others to gain popularity, I disagree. I think the majority of people who shoot people for revenge of being made fun of and/or for the "fun of it/to see if they can do it.

The arguments that Hetemti and CE have some weight but it also leads to a "paradox" of sorts. You might have been raised with discipline (PLEASE spell the word right ) but what's to guarantee that the discipline will hold all throughout your years? Your parents might trust you and figure hey, you know what you're doing and you might decide that hey, my parents aren't supervising me anymore and I wonder how this works/what will happen if I do this? And if parents DO need to keep track of you, how long is it until you get annoyed with them asking you "where are you going" every night and calling you on your cell phone to check up on you?

Despite what you may think and what many parents think about their kids, parents just don't know alot of what is going on in their lives. There have been plenty of articles where there have been parties with underage drinking with HONORS students attending and participating. And surely there are times when someone says they're going to a friends house for the night and yeah, they go to the friends house to PICK THEM UP to go somewhere else.

Discipline is needed, but it's not a cureall.

I agree media and video games do not directly cause violence. But can you really extrapolate YOUR personal experience with them "oh yeah, you don't see ME going out and shooting up people" with the whole of youth society? I'm pretty sure I read somewhere way in the past (if not about Columbine, then about another shooting) that first-person shooters just prepared the guy for what was going to happen when he shot in real life. And the Army is using first-person shooters (maybe not the games themselves but something like it) for training. Again, I'm not saying they directly influence someone to go out shooting. But they don't help NOT to shoot either.

 

[Hetemti]

...you might decide that hey, my parents aren't supervising me anymore and I wonder how this works/what will happen if I do this?

To wonder is one thing, to act is another. One who would act on such a notion is lacking morals, the rules around which discipline is built. (me mispel dicipline? That unposibell!)

 

[Cateran Emperor]

Re: Daggertooth
Sure, the materials for pipebombs are fairly common. But remember when they searched the Columbines' kids rooms afterwards? Strewn about in plain view were weapons, ammunition, bomb-making materials, and even a journal of what they were planning. Did the parents never even once stop to think of this.

Re: Spidey
I'll answer that with an experience of my own. When I got my driver's license, my mother asked me to call her whenever I got somewhere. One time, when I got to work, I forgot to call her. When she called asking if I had gotten there safely, I was extremely disappointed with myself. I had worried my mother to death. I was only 17, and so it was absolutely justifiable that she should want to know where I was and if I had gotten there safely. When I got home, she was understanding. I never forgot again. After several weeks, she no longer asked me to call her. My own sense of discipline (I got it right in both posts there Spidey, so I assume you were referring to Hetemi) prevailed, and so I was able to recieve trust and more freedoms as I proved myself. Do you understand what I mean?

 

[Spiderman]

Hetemti and CE: I understand (I think) what you guys are saying. But the point I'm trying to make is that all people have flaws and saying discipline will stop it all seems (pardon the bluntness) naive. If EVERYONE had discipline, why would we need laws? 'Cause then everyone has the discipline NOT to do what's wrong...

Like the Stainless Steel Rat book series says/alludes to, there are people out there who are "built" differently. They may know what's right or wrong but don't care. They may have the "discipline" to not overspend, but could care less about shooting someone. They may know what's right or wrong but WANT to break the law for the challenge or fun of it. They may know what's right or wrong and have asked for help but none was given. There are so many scenarios...

All I'm saying is that I don't think you can extrapolate YOUR personal experiences onto the whole of youth society with regards of how discipline should be. There was an article in the Baltimore Sun recently on how the mother KNEW she instilled good morals and discipline in her daughter and had to trust her making the right decisions when she went out. And as I said in my previous post, I'm sure (ouch, assumption ) many of the honors students' parents thought they had instilled such morals and discipline in their kids, but it turned out they attended a party/drank underage.

Do you think "kids with discipline" can turn down a party where there's no adult supervision/drinking/drugs?
Do you think "kids with discipline" can resist the temptation not to cheat ALL throughout their school career ('cause I know I didn't).

As I've stated before, I don't totally disagree with you. Discipline and morals are a good start, the laying of the background for "unlawful behavior". I just don't agree that it's the ONLY thing that will fixall (if that is indeed what you guys are saying). A variety of variables contribute...

 

[Hetemti]

...all people have flaws and saying discipline will stop it all seems (pardon the bluntness) naive. If EVERYONE had discipline, why would we need laws? 'Cause then everyone has the discipline NOT to do what's wrong...

Correct. Humans have not evolved to that point yet. But that is a decent goal to shoot for, but there will always be laws and those who enforce them becasue...

...there are people out there who are "built" differently...They may know what's right or wrong but WANT to break the law for the challenge or fun of it. They may know what's right or wrong and have asked for help but none was given. There are so many scenarios...

...that the entire legal system as it stands will have to be discarded and rebuilt due to the fact that it is developing "rules cheese." Much like 6th ed., the frameworks the same, but the specifics will change a lot.

...as I said in my previous post, I'm sure (ouch, assumption) many of the honors students' parents thought they had instilled such morals and discipline in their kids, but it turned out they attended a party/drank underage.

True, expierimentation can not be denied. It is too deeply rooted in human nature. However, this is where another form of self discipline, responsibility, takes over. Sure, Honor student Sally might go to a party and drink underage, but will she stop at one? Will she go home early if the guys become obnoxious? Will she have a dry driver if she choose to drink more than one? If so, Sally did the wrong thing, but she did it the right way. That counts for a lot. She will not pull the "everyone else went" crap, but rather be responsible and state she wanted to know what it was like to go. Note, that honesty follows responsibility, which follows discipline...

...Do you think "kids with discipline" can resist the temptation not to cheat ALL throughout their school career ('cause I know I didn't).

There are always deviants, but most would choose not to cheat. I don't cheat. I think part of the problems is that parents today either reward good grades with cash, or punish children who do poorly. If a bad note is returned, parents should work with the kid when he/she does the class' homework...dare I suggest the parents do something...

I just don't agree that it's the ONLY thing that will fixall (if that is indeed what you guys are saying). A variety of variables contribute...

Discipline is definatly not a fix-all, but look at the news. Child kills playmate. Student shoots seven at school. Man shot for tennis shoes by sixteen year old...

...something needs to be done.