Reprint Selections

Discussion in 'General CPA Stuff' started by FoundationOfRancor, Aug 15, 2001.

  1. Zadok001 CPA Founder, Greater Good

    Dissipate was always a balanced favorite of mine, but I wouldn't want it in today's Type 2. The post-Masques Type 2, however, would probably welcome a good 3cc counter to round out blue a bit more.

    And Gizmo nailed my greatest wish on the head when he said Gaea's Blessing. Everyone keeps telling me it's broken, but I'm afraid I just don't see it. It exists within broken decks, but that always seemed more a fault of the environment than the card. *sigh*

    Jackal Pup would be nice, too...
  2. Hellion New Member

    :eek:

    reprint not so broken but tourney stuff i'd say:

    Red:
    Incinerate
    Lightning Bolt
    Fissure
    Mogg Fanatic
    Fireslinger

    Blue:
    I don't know....they are a color that doesn't need anything reprinted

    Black:
    Sengir Vampire
    Black Knight
    Carnophage
    Bad Moon
    Drain Life
    Contagion

    Green:
    Verdant Force
    Rancor?
    Ice Storm
    Rogue Elephant

    White:
    Armageddon
    White Knight
    Balance
    Crusade

    Artifacts:
    Nevinyrral's Disk
    The Rack
    Black Vise
    Cursed Scroll
    Voltaic Key
    Thran Dynamo
  3. Istanbul Sucker MCs call me sire.

    Both of these are WAY too powerful...the former in the sense that Force of Will was an original ACC from Alliances...and the latter in the same sense that Demonic Tutor is way strong: reusing any card from your graveyard for two mana is Some Good.
  4. Istanbul Sucker MCs call me sire.

  5. theorgg Slob

    I'd like to see the Atogs back in print(as Uncommons), Natural Order(or, as Wakefield refferred to it, Calvin's Green Transmogrifying Spell), THE BEST FATTIE EVER PRINTED, Scragnoth, Fountain of Youth, Zur's Weird Thing, Living Death, Strands of Night, Singir Vampire, Brushwaag, Floral Spuzzem(still sentinet, as always), Prismatic Lace, Urza's Funky Bananna...

    Y'know, the FUN stuff...
  6. Gizmo Composite: 1860

    rofl@istanbul
    "wait, you didn`t agree with me. you retard."

    Yeah. Cos I`m sure you are certainly much better able to decide what is or is not too powerful to be reprinted into the environment than EVERYBODY else in the CPA.
    :mad:
    Personally I think Istanbul is just knee-jerking against any card that was ever any good in any deck. Regardless of how much synergy it would or would not have these days.

    Incinerate and Bolt I would avoid, as I think right now red has really efficient burn anyway and these would send it over the top. Mogg Fanatic, Jackal Pup, and Fireslinger, seem like reasonable creatures - they will boost mono-red but I don`t think they would single-handedly rebuild Sligh as they would be, in fact, the start and end of the list of good red creatures.

    As far as blue spells go I am loathe to reinvent mono-blue decks as they are a little tiresome and UW/UW/UWB decks ARE more interesting. So I think Dissipate is a bit off, but Legacy`s Allure might be quite solid in the current field of larger guys than there were last time, where it was a tip-top card. Man O War I like cos my list was trying to encourage reprinting splashable cards to continue to support interesting 3c decks.

    Black. Hmm. Woah there horsey - I don`t want to accel things too much and I`m happy to see almost any 2-power for one man gone (Pup gets special dispensation for being a Pup :) ). I don`t like the idea of putting Drain Life in - you just got Death Grasp for hecks sake! You just got a GOOD Drain Life reprinted. Black Knight is nice and was the third card on my list of black spells, the potential strength of a 2/2 First Strike was what put me off, possibly the Knight Of Stromgald is more fair.

    I guess Verdant Force is fine without Natural Order, I personally feel that Rancor would be a little strong (although I don`t think it`sd even close to broken at all), similarly Rogue Elephant would simply be far too huge too early, IMHO. With burn down to being 2 damage in most cases, with decks being slower, with no Swords - he looks quite fat to me and I`m not in a rush to rebuild a fast Stompy archetype. Blessing is a good card, broken? SINCE WHEN! I think its the definition of a good card, powerful, but slow and you don`t want to draw it in your opening hand - its strong, its interesting, it`s subtle, it`s splashable. Ideal.

    White. ARMAGEDDON is fine? Are you nuts??? If Armageddon was legal the entire world would be playing 4 right away! Look how many people are playing Orbs right now. Geddon is simply far too strong in the current multi-colored and expensive format (hence very dependent on your land base being solid and permanent). Balance. Erm, no. Really. No. Just no. I don`t mind White Knight too much though, but again rather see Order Of The White Shield.

    Disk - I think too powerful. Keg is more interesting to have in the field. Vice and Rack I cant agree with being in the set. But how can Voltaic Key be good if there are NONE of the powerful UBC artifacts, or Tinker, in the format, and Thran Dynamo is simply poor, Worn Powerstone would boost Wildfire strategies a bit which would be nice to see.
  7. FoundationOfRancor The Gunslinger

    I think Verdant Force is a fine reprint (But wont be because of the counters)

    Fissure is out of flavor for red.
    I disagre with Gizmo about those red creatures. He said himself red already has a stable burn base on it right now. It doesent even need more than three good creatures; 12 and a couple ones of crap, mixed with good burn is more than enough to push sligh over the edge.

    I think reprinting maybe ONE of those would work.

    Spiderman is the only one who actually got this thread for what it was supposed to be.
  8. Istanbul Sucker MCs call me sire.

    No, Gizmo. I don't think everybody is stupid. Just you. Some people are making questionable calls, but you're the only one getting worked up about my difference of opinion. :)

    *watches Gizmo proceed to agree with him on almost every point* See, now, THAT'S funny. :) What do we disagree on? Let's see...Mogg Fanatic, Dissipate, Verdant Force, Gaea's Blessing, Armageddon, and Thran Dynamo. Out of all of those. Wow, sounds like we're OF THE SAME MIND on most of these.

    Fanatic I could go either way on.
    Dissipate I stand on, because mono-blue has lost ALMOST all of its decent, non-situational counterspells. Everything counters a spell IF it does this, or IF it's this type.
    Verdant Force just makes me hesitate because it's enormous, generates its own horde, and it's ONE color. Rith, the closest comparison, is balanced because it's *three* colors. Verdant Force slips into mono-green.
    Gaea's Blessing...let me make my point clear. If Gaea's Blessing is reprinted, you can just take those Millstones and put them back into your trade binder. Gaea's Blessing eliminates a win condition. That's bad.
    Armageddon...we already HAVE Armageddon. It just costs BBWW3, and comes with a 5/4 flyer attached. This just evens the playing field.
    Thran Dynamo I don't object so much to, except in the same environment as Voltaic Key. Key was restricted for a REASON, Gizmo. I thought you followed tournaments closely enough to understand?
  9. theorgg Slob

    On the BFEP:

    It forces itself into mono-green. Any other color can forget about it helping out. That is WHY it should be reprinted. It's a good, powerful card that green can take some advantage of, and it's not a thing that fires or somthing that'd just splash everything else could use.

    Ever tried for a complete mono-green in MM/INV T][][?

    It's tough. I've gotten some damn fine bad ones, but nothing that'd be a kickyass type thing...


    Then again, the best thing I used in the last Mono-green deck I used was probably forest...
  10. Istanbul Sucker MCs call me sire.

    Actually, yeah...did pretty decently. My *first* design came *just* short of making finals. Unfortunately, this was shortly before 7th came out, so the deck is no longer legal due to a few cards.
  11. HumanError Supreme Black Magus

    In all honesty, I really would have to disagree with the reprinting of Dissipate. Wholeheartedly. With a side of bacon and eggs, deep fried.

    Am I the only one noticing that blue is STILL a dominant color right now? OrbPosition (or however you spell it). ProbeGo. GoMar. NoMar. WhateverMar. Blue Skies.

    Blue doesn't need any more countermagic. It still chaps my backside that red's burn got neutered to hell while blue just keeps on chugging with good countermagic. Don't start whining about blue not having any good counters of its own, because as long as Counterspell is around, it's fine. You're complaining about an environment that has Undermine. So it's got a black mana in the CC. God.

    We don't need Dissipate. If anything, we need to weaken blue.

    Black, on the other hand, could really use some beefing up. I really don't like how it looked in 7th Edition. If they'd reprinted Sengir Vampire or something, I might be somewhat satisfied. Maybe Devouring Strossus will show up in 8th (a guy can dream). But blue gets FatMoti, white gets Serra (albeit with crappy art), red gets Shivan (also with crappy art), green gets Thorny, and black gets...Eastern and Western Paladin? WHAT A DEAL!

    In summary: weaken blue, strengthen black. That is all.
  12. Gizmo Composite: 1860

    Key was restricted for a reason. Emr yes so it was. That reason was Tinker! Or was it Grim Monolith? Either way those cards aren`t in T2. What are you going to so brutally abuse with Voltaic Key? Sky Diamond? I`m fairly sure it wasn`t Thran Dynamo. What are you going to with your Key/Dynamo combo? erm, I guess burn people? Is that strong? (Answer: no). Besides I don`t want Dynamo cos it`s terrible, I want Powerstone cos it`s at least semi-playable.

    As for what we agree on. You seem to think we widely agree, we agree on a few points, but I`m sure we disagree on many many more.
    Mainly this one.
    I find you very frustrating Isty. You do something, then simply accuse the other person of starting it when they reply on the same level. You are the one responding to virtually every post on this thread to tell people why they are being stupid about the cards they want to see reprinted. I simply think you are being far too restrictive on a debate that should be open and people should feel able to contribute to without you haranguing their choices as broken and poorly thought out.
  13. Griffith_se Queen of the Sub-Optimal

    Yeah, Grim Monolith, Phyrexian Colossus,
    Phyrexian Processor, Metalworker...maybe a few more?
  14. Zadok001 CPA Founder, Greater Good

    Only one point to make:

    "Gaea's Blessing eliminates a win condition. That's bad."

    /me points at Legacy Weapon.

    Win condition eliminated. *sigh* :(
  15. Istanbul Sucker MCs call me sire.

    I'm sorry, did I ever tell someone 'No, you can't think this way'? No, I didn't. I'm making points about why some cards shouldn't be reprinted. Or should I have agreed with Balance and Disk?

    We're exactly the same, Gizmo. The difference is, you're disagreeing on different cards, and being insulting to the other person who's doing what you're doing.

    God forbid I should voice my disagreements with someone. Like you do. God, you drive me nuts, with your arrogant, hypocritical attitude.
  16. Istanbul Sucker MCs call me sire.

    True, but unless you're playing five-color, Legacy Weapon is useless. It also costs...a ton of mana. *checks his set* SEVEN mana.
    Gaea's Blessing is always useful.
    Gaea's Blessing is almost impossible to remove from the game, as it's not a permanent.
    Gaea's Blessing costs 2 mana.
    Gaea's Blessing draws you a card at the *very* least.
    Gaea's Blessing has the ability to shuffle your graveyard...ALL of it...into your library.
  17. Dune Echo CPA Founder, Idea Man

    First of all, Gaea's Blessing is one of the best card - but NOT broken - ever made. I'm very glad it wasn't a rare or I would not have ever gotten the three that I have now.

    Compare this card to Reclaim and Regrowth. First, it puts the card back into your library to draw later instead of in hand (which unless you're building your deck to take advantage of that, isn't extremely helpful - and how many have widely successfully done this? Turboland and TurboZvi?). Reclaim and Regrowth both do this (Reclaim just makes you skip your draw step to do so).

    Second, it is a cantrip. If you have zero cards in your library and cast Gaea's Blessing, you have just recreated Regrowth. Most often, you just draw something besides whatever you just recycled.

    Thirdly, Gaea's Blessing is a sorcery.

    In regards to eliminating a win condition... How many cards eliminate decking? Feldon's Cane, Thran Foundry, Gaea's Blessing. I can' t think of any others that I might have missed (there's probably more, I'm sure). The first two have to be cast and activated and you don't get to choose which cards get recycled (so, if you don't need land, you're still going to end up drawing some eventually). Gaea's Blessing only recycles up to 3 cards (and there's a debate somewhere over whether or not it can be 0 cards or not, I can't remember what the official word is right now). If a Millstone deck catches all the Feldon's Cane or Thran Foundry cards (which is possible), the person playing them most likely has no way of dealing with the threat. The reverse applies to Gaea's Blessing. If you Millstone Gaea's Blessing, the Millstone player has just been screwed. If you draw a Gaea's Blessing and can recycle one that's in the graveyard already, you've just most likely screwed the Millstone player. Gaea's Blessing makes the Millstone player work hard for a win.

    Against decking, yes, Gaea's Blessing is very strong. But don't forget Lobotomy is stronger. Dissipate is stronger. Tormod's Crypt makes it worthless. Planar Void makes it worthless. These are all cards the Millstone player can use to counter Gaea's Blessing, and I'm sure there are more. Gaea's Blessing is not overly powerful, just an all-around strong card.

    In regards to what cards would make good reprints... I have always been a proponent of Chain Lightning. It's red burn in the 3 damage range, it has a drawback, and it's also a sorcery. It would have been a helluva lot better than Strafe and Singe and Lightning Dart. No one seemed to have a problem with Urza's Rage (uncounterable Lightning Bolt for 2R, plus a Kicker ability) by the way...

    Thran Dynamo is a good artifact in my opinion, much better than Sisay's Ring (which really did not need to be reprinted. I personally feel that Limited is entirely too controlling of the quality of the card pool, but that's another arguement for another day).

    There are plenty of things that need to be reprinted because they're good, quality cards. I'll write my list later.
  18. Rando Freaky Bear

    I would like...

    Ashen Ghoul
    Nether Spirit
    Order of the Ebon Hand
    Order of the White Shield
    Blinking Spirit
    The Rack (but not the Vise)
    Incinerate
    Regrowth
    Mother of Runes
    Icy Manipulator
    Phyrexian Plaugelord
    Mishra's Factory
    Maze of Ith
    Flying Men
    Stone Throwing Devils (just for kicks, but with Sinister Strength...)
    Serated Arrows
    Swords to Plowshares
    Clergy of the Holy Nimbus (also just for kicks...)
    Both Elemental Blasts
  19. Istanbul Sucker MCs call me sire.

    Reclaim and Regrowth don't cycle multiple cards back. Nor do they draw you a card. Nor do they prevent decking.
    Feldon's Cane and Thran Foundry do nothing for you if THEY get milled. Gaea's Blessing says 'Whoops! You hit a Blessing. Guess you get to start all over again!'
    Yes, Gaea's Blessing is a cantrip. I don't exactly consider that a ringing endorsement for it being balanced.
    And yes, it's a Sorcery. So? So is Demonic Tutor. So are lots of bizarrely strong spells. Doesn't mean much, especially when one of its best uses doesn't involve casting it at all.
    I would honestly say that Gaea's Blessing doesn't make the Millstone player work hard for a win, it makes a win pretty much impossible. Especially if you have multiple copies.
    I draw Gaea's Blessing? I send cards back into my library.
    I draw a second Blessing? I send the first one back in.
    My second Blessing gets milled? Good!

    There are ways to deal with Gaea's Blessing. True. There are ways to deal with Morphling and Swamp/Petal/RagingGoblin/Hatred and Stroke decks that win on Turn 2, too. But there aren't many ways of dealing with any of them.

    I don't know. Maybe you guys don't have the background in Type 1 that I do, having played it *exclusively* for years on end. Maybe you haven't seen Oath of Druids decks Oath without a second thought because 'all I have to do is hit my Blessing'. Maybe you haven't seen no less than FOUR Mill decks retired as unwinnable concepts because of Gaea's Blessing. But this thing was traded as a *rare* in my play group. A *good* rare.

    I'm okay with Chain Lightning...but I'd PREFER to see Thunderbolt make a comeback. All this sorcery burn is getting me down. What happened to instants that do more than 2 damage but DON'T cost three mana or more to cast?

    I guess I should have been clearer regarding my point with Thran Dynamo. I'm more concerned about it as it relates to Voltaic Key...but then, I'm concerned with most artifacts as they relate to Voltaic Key. If Dynamo were reprinted and Voltaic Key got left out, I'd be kewl with that.
  20. Mikeymike Captain Hiatus

    Everyone keep something in mind:
    8th edition comes out in 2003 when Invasion Block will have rotated out, so don't bother comparing 8th edition choices to the current type 2 enviro.

    Dissapate is a solid counterspell that allows blue to combat graveyard recursion (something it has a big problem with) without dominating the matchup. I think its a balanced card, but I'd rather see Dismiss anyway just b/c its more fun and less obnoxious to play. However, I also think that blue shouldn't have too many viable legal counterspells at one time as (as HumanError points out) blue always seems to be the dominant color in competitive play (like now).

    Voltaic Key can't be reprinted, it makes too many artifacts much stronger than they should be. Istanbul gave a very good explanation as to why it would hurt the game: a legal Key means good, playable artifacts all of a sudden become broken or much more powerful than they should be. Besides, WOTC took a break from printing good artifacts for the last 2 years, so chances are that Odessey will start to revive them back into playable cards.

    I'm on the fence in regards to Gaea's Blessing but I'm leaning towards 'no'. No, its not a broken card by any means, and is even playable w/o its alternate ability. However, its combos have a tendency to be extremely powerful (Oath, FoF which neither will be reprinted) and it does absolutely crush U/W Millstone. Okay, so if Lobotomy and/or Planar Void become legal Millstone stands a chance. Now we are talking about a B/U or B/U/W Millstone deck which I personally feel isn't nearly as strong or consistent. I hate Millstone, but I feel a competitive alternate victory condition should be supported for a long time. The existence of Gaea's Blessing would just prevent that from happening. Would you play Millstone if the Blessing was legal?

    Thankfully Rancor gives "trample" so we don't have to argue whether or not it should(n't) be included in 8th. I wouldn't go as far as to call it broken BUT it should have never been printed as a common, that's just wrong (like Blastoderm).

    I'd still rather see Natural Order over the Verdant Force, but I'd be happy with either. But the Force is useless without decent mana acceleration. I'm never against green being a dominant color in any format. Emerald Charm and City of Solitude I still want too.

    And Black does suck right now and needs a serious make-over. What happened to all of its tempo creatures? At least give us the Diabolic Edict and a solid creature or 2. I still can't believe they didn't reprint Diaboloic Edict in 7th, it is a great, balanced card.

    What's going on with the lack of good 1-drops recently? Do they really unbalance competitive play that much? I guess Blue and White (Cloud Sprite and R. Sergent) deserve the best non-mana 1-drops in Type 2....

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