OnBC: Zombies

R

Rakamir

Guest
Beasts is the other consideration, and a huge one. thanks to Cliffs and Rav Baloth. Especially Cliffs. If I don't play Zombies, I'll play Beasts. But I'd rather beat Beasts. Amplified Crawlers and Throwbacks are pretty nasty. After playtesting vs Beasts, I decided to say a fond farewell to Skulltap. A really genteel card that wants a slower metagame. Too bad, they invented the Warchiefs, and that's that. I hold my own vs Beasts, but not if it goes first. Too strong. So I have tuned accordingly:

31 Zombies
by Rakamir

2 Carrion Feeder
4 Festering Goblin
3 Twisted Abomination
2 Undead Gladiator
4 Gempalm Polluter
4 Withered Wretch
2 Oversold Cemetary
4 Putrid Raptor
4 Skinthinner
4 Undead Warchief
2 Visara the Dreadful
4 Barren Moor
3 Unholy Grotto
18 Swamp
sb
4 Patriarch's Bidding <=== Slide, Control White
4 Call to the Grave <== Slide (2), Beasts, Vegetables
4 Smother <== Gobbos, Clerics, Elves, Soldiers, Mirror
3 Wretched Anurid <== Slide

I like Noxious Ghoul. I like Cabal Interrogator. I like Infest. I just can't seem to fit them in.

Cliffs must die,
Rakamir-san
 
T

train

Guest
I still don't see Zombies doing so well...

If you're going to continue testing decks you want to compete with, I'd go R/W(non-slide), or G/W... both could beat beasts...

Deciding what you'd like to play sooner rather than later, only gives you more time to tweak, and improve your playing of the deck you choose to compete with....
 
R

Rakamir

Guest
I can see Zombies doing very well. It's still early, there's a lot of testing to be done. One deck I seeing falling by the wayside fast is Goblins. The hate for it will be tremendous. It will still do well based on the numbers alone that show up, but it has a huge bulls-eye on it now that people assume Stabilizer and Bidding and Vortex will crush Slide. What is your R/W listing? I've seen the other.
 
T

train

Guest
This is the R/W... and only if I decided to play slide...
The G/W is set to beat slide, handle gobbos, and do well vs. zombies... it may battle vs. beasts...

Creatures:
4 Silver Knight
3 Eternal Dragon
4 Exalted Angel
1 Jareth Leonine titan

Spells:
4 Astral Slide
3 Lightning Rift
4 Starstorm
4 Akroma's Blessing
2 Akroma's Vengeance
4 Shocks
3 Wing Shards

Lands:
10 Plains
10 Mountain
2 Forgotten Cave
2 Secluded Steppe

Sideboard:
3 Disciple of Grace
4 White Knights
1 Akroma's Vengeance
2 Circle of Solace
3 Wipe Clean
2 Lay Waste

The Blessings, disciples, and wastes are just tech not currently being used as much as they should be... It doesn't matter what color they're playing - If I blessing, I get past their creatures... If I say white, they can't slide, or block with angels... red - gobbos, black, it's like my creatures have fear, blue - well... hmmm..., and green... elves are no longer in the way...

Bring it on - is all I have to say....;) :cool:

Oh - and one other thing...

It's people like me that surprise the field with tech that was tossed aside...

"It's all about the Tech... and the look on the opponent's face when it hits the table!..."
 
R

Rakamir

Guest
Well, my confused. You talk about a non-Slide R/W listing, then you give me a Slide listing.

Yah, I love it when tossed aside tech is good. It's all about that, and luck, ....... and pairings. :D
 
T

train

Guest
Sorry... R/W no slide is below.... The slide above is the similar to the e-league deck you previously posted that I said I'd play...

Creatures:
4 Silver Knight
3 Eternal Dragon
2 Exalted Angel
1 Jareth Leonine Titan
4 White Knight

Spells:
3 Lightning Rift
4 Starstorm
4 Akroma's Blessing
1 Akroma's Vengeance
4 Shocks
4 Wing Shards
2 Wipe Clean

Lands:
10 Plains
10 Mountain
2 Forgotten Cave
2 Secluded Steppe

Sideboard:
3 Disciple of Grace
4 Foothill guides
2 Akroma's Vengeance
2 Circle of Solace
2 Wipe Clean
2 Lay Waste

More First Strike and Protection... With a teeny tiney bit of utility...(sarcastically smiling...)
 
R

Rakamir

Guest
I guess the thinking is that since new Slide is being designed such that the removal of THE EIGHT enchantments makes it stronger vs certain decks post-boarding (ie, reneder their Stabilizers somewhat useless), why not start out that way? I'll start a new thread on it and let's discuss it there.

Since this is a Zombie thread, what do you think about the maindeck Twisted Sisters, um, I mean Abominations? They have nice synergy with Gotto and Oversold, and of course you cycle the first one you see.This deck does have quite a few cyclers, which is pretty key if you wish to get up to mana to cast an 8cc Skinthinner to skinthin, say, a Canopy Crawler, or especially Feral Throwback.....

....Amplify: 2. That was fair (not really).
 
T

train

Guest
I really think the Zombie decks work well... I just don't think they work well enough to win a Championship...

As for Abomination....

I think the Oversold is the key part to the deck... grotto accounted for...

The cycling does help get mana out... but here's a tech idea for Zombies - since they recur... and you're going to have mana... Doom Cannon...

Only Akroma's is out there, and readily playable to deal with something like that...

I'm willing to bet if you throw one or 2 in your deck, that you take care of business more readily...

Get this - you can even sac zombies that have taken lethal damage!!!....
 
R

Rakamir

Guest
Originally posted by train

The cycling does help get mana out... but here's a tech idea for Zombies - since they recur... and you're going to have mana... Doom Cannon...

Only Akroma's is out there, and readily playable to deal with something like that...

I'm willing to bet if you throw one or 2 in your deck, that you take care of business more readily...

Get this - you can even sac zombies that have taken lethal damage!!!....
Click to expand...
I thought of Doom Cannon for Elves, once.

If not for Starstorm and Akroma's, it would be better. Cliffs, or friggin Canopy Crawler powering up a regenerating Krosan Warchief often gives you the choice of dying, or losing a creature. I usually lose the creature.

I suppose you're saying that after damage is on the stack, you sac the lost soul to Doom Cannon? Hmm.

Here's my only problem with that: If you play Zombies, you'll note you either have a glut of Ziombies in play, or just a few. Carrion Feeder is one reason, Putrid Raptor the Godlike another, but mostly its the Cliffs or CC/KW thing. Undead Gladiator helps a lot.

But Doom Cannon is way too expensive to make much of a difference by the time you can play it. If only it were 4cc instead of 6, but its not.

For the same reason, I'm taking Visara out. I love it, but Slide slides it making it have summoning sickness again, maybe until I die; Gobbos, a 6cc spell is just too slow for; Beasts will Cliffs it with an Amplify fatboy. Here's how I beat Beasts once with Visara, and this is the ONLY time it was useful:

I have to do 4 points of damage, but only have a 2cc Feeder and a Festering Goblin out. I do 4, or I die next turn (his beasts were tapped out). Poor me, I have no Polluter in hand. However, I do have a Visara, and 6 untapped mana. Cast Visara, sac to Feeder, swing for four. Umm, not exactly the preferred use for Visara, a card that's more often than not dead in my hand at end of game, whomever wins.

So I'm replacing the 2 Visaras maindeck (I like it vs Vegetables still) with 2 Call of the Grave. Good move?
 
T

train

Guest
I think it's a good move...

The only reason I brought up the cannon, was because it wouldn't get slided as opposed to Visara, and yeah, it did work with any creature, after damage was on the stack...

You could also use it to pick off the beast after they use cliffs...

I do think your change will help you though...
 
R

Rakamir

Guest
I can't help thinking that there are other cards that would be better, especially against Beasts.

The presence of Warchief might mean larger Zombies are warrented, such as Gluttonous Zombie, but I wouldn't go that far.

Soulless One is decent and somewhat Cliffs-proof if cast late enough, and a monster in the mirror.

If only Grinning Demon didn't make you lose TWO life per upkeep ... 6/6's for 4 mana are hard to come by, even if they're not a zombie.

Call to the Grave is still pretty damn heavy, tho. And I wish to make Cliffs a liability as much as possible, if that's even possible.

So ... I'm thinking the last two cards should be a pair of Nantuko Husks. It has synergy with Skinthinner, Putrid Raptor, Oversold, Grotto, Undead Warchief, and a low cc.

I could even add another Gladiator and Oversold.

In any event, discussing/debating/arguing over the last two cards in any deck is half the fun of our game ... and half the aggravation, too.
 
R

Rakamir

Guest
33 Zombies
by Rakamir

2 Carrion Feeder
4 Festering Goblin
3 Twisted Abomination
2 Undead Gladiator
4 Gempalm Polluter
4 Withered Wretch
2 Cover of Darkness
4 Putrid Raptor
4 Skinthinner
4 Undead Warchief
2 Soulless One
4 Barren Moor
3 Unholy Grotto
18 Swamp
sb
4 Patriarch's Bidding
1 Soulless One
2 Cover of Darkness
4 Smother
4 Ark of Blight

Have no fear,
Rakamir
 
R

Rakamir

Guest
It might be wiser to run 4 Twisteds and 3 Polluters. Fine tuning.

A tip re Cover of Darkness. Giving all your critters Fear, like a 10/9 or better Soulless One, is sweet, but try to resist the urge to cast CoD early. Wait until the last second, like just before you attack vs Beasts, or possibly the turn before vs decks with Wing Shards to avoid Storm, to cast it. Its "surprise value" is priceless.

I'm winning the so-called "unwinnable" matchup of Zombies vs Beasts with this half the time FIRST game, and I get much better after boarding.

Here's a question, though. WHAT will Beasts bring in against me after boarding?

Black is the color of "good,"
Rakamir
 
T

train

Guest
I don't think beasts can take it - even after boarding, unless they use a lot of direct damage...

I do think a deck with White in it could severely hurt you...

"I recall a G/W, or R/W deck I'm still working on..."

:p ;)

I think white will be in the winning decks for this block. Period.:cool:
 
N

NorrYtt

Guest
Zombie Bidding - Jarrod Bright

Main Deck
3 Carrion Feeder
3 Festering Goblin
4 Withered Wretch
4 Rotlung Reanimator
4 Putrid Raptor
4 Noxious Ghoul
4 Twisted Abomination

4 Patriarch's Bidding
4 Read the Runes
3 Rush of Knowledge

4 Grand Coliseum
3 Island
4 Polluted Delta
12 Swamp

Sideboard:
3 Call to the Grave
3 Cruel Revival
3 Head Games
3 Infest
3 Smother

This deck looks about as unfair as it gets for a Zombie deck. Patriarch's Bidding is more akin to Living Death when your opponent's team dies to a reanimated Noxious Ghoul.
 
R

Rakamir

Guest
There is another link to discuss the Zombies/Bidding archetype, and it's here:

http://www.casualplayers.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=135650#post135650

I think I own the deck, personally.
Noxious Ghoul is a dead card against me.
I suppose he could Wretch my sideboard, and I can do the same to his.
Patriarch's Bidding? Cool ! I'll name: "Zombies." Too.
I'm mono. He's prone to color screw (though I like his choice of blue cards).
I have Soulless One. He doesn't.
I have Unholy-Strength-All-Your-Creatures. He does not.
OK, my Covers of Darkness are horrible in the mirror. Fine, he has more dead cards against me than I have against him.
He definitely has card advantage in Runes and Rush. I'll give him that, and we should have good battle.

Again, maindecking Bidding is a huge risk in a field of Aggro. The deck is decent though. I'll definitely test against it.

Originally posted by train
I don't think beasts can take it - even after boarding, unless they use a lot of direct damage...

I do think a deck with White in it could severely hurt you...

"I recall a G/W, or R/W deck I'm still working on..."

:p ;)

I think white will be in the winning decks for this block. Period.:cool:
Click to expand...
Sure. On paper, White can beat anything, and very often in practice too. My Zombies beats Slide and Goblins consistently, though. Beasts and the mirror are tougher, but not impossible. Super Elves (Wirewood Superman) may or may not be a problem. I'm guessing that deck won't pan out very well, with all the anti-enchantment hate that exists for Slide being just as useful vs Pemmin's "Who's going to protect ME" Aura. Or shock the Elf.
 
R

Rakamir

Guest
I laughed, I cried, I wanted to embrace the whole world and shoot myself, all at the same time, when I read this article:

http://www.magic4you.nu/articles/2003-06/jonbczombies.php

I can't begin to list my favorite passages, but here are two of them:

"OK, so what is the conclusion? Exactly, Zombies has currently no big opponent! Monowhite might beat it, but hmm. Even there if you play it right, you have a chance, and its not so popular yet! In tournaments its about one third Slide, and one third Goblins. 2 decks you can deal with. That makes Zombies a really big tier 1 deck, and makes it my favorite deck in the July OnBC block so far."

"Beasts
This deck also needs a big scream for attention. I dont know why the pro's are not talking about it. Maybe because its their tech. But beats tend to be really really good. Maybe they are worth my next article. Beasts and Zombies are very alike. and in case they get their arena land in play, and deal each of your creatures 4 damage, you have a hard time. In case you get a Call of the Dead first, and kill a creature per turn, and keep playing Rotlung Reanimators, Visara, big Soulless creatures, then you will win. I havent tested this deck enough, but you have a good chance you win. I'd say about equal with Veggies."
 
T

train

Guest
Ahh... but it hasn't gone against the R/W non-slide...

and probably won't unless you're near me in Texas - and I get to make it to the tourney...:rolleyes:

I just think white will be in the winning deck this year...

even if it's:

3 Carrion Feeder
3 Festering Goblin
4 Withered Wretch
4 Rotlung Reanimator
4 Putrid Raptor
4 Noxious Ghoul
3 Twisted Abomination
1 Nova Cleric

4 Patriarch's Bidding
4 Read the Runes
3 Rush of Knowledge

4 Grand Coliseum
3 Island
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
11 Swamp

Sideboard:
3 Call to the Grave
3 Cruel Revival
3 Head Games
3 Infest
3 Smother
 
R

Rakamir

Guest
B/W Control is very good. Lotus Mox started a thread on that. Here is an example of a very bad Zombies deck, by the way. It's almost like an editor gives a writer an idea (Zombies!) and says write an article about it, and the guy never playtests it.

ZOMBIES
Anonymous <=== I hope so

3 Call of the Grave <=== bad in block
0 Twisted Abomination <=== no, play 3

...oops, gotta go. Will finish this tomorrow. Ciao bella !
 
N

Nightstalkers

Guest
Darn! what a nice little toy ya got there...

I'll try it at FNM
 
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