OnBC: Zombies

Discussion in 'Casual Decks/Variants/Etc' started by Rakamir, May 21, 2003.

  1. Rakamir New Member

    Alvin Lau presents the following deck for NO BLUE Block Constucted, aka Draft Constructed, offically known as Onslaught Block Constructed, over at Brainburst. First I'll list the link, followed by his decklist and notes on the deck, and then throw this archetype open for discussion because, yah, Scourge helps the undead QUITE a bit, yes?

    http://www.brainburst.com/db/article.asp?id=3020

    4 Carrion Feeder
    4 Wretched Anurid
    4 Withered Wretch
    2 Skinthinner
    3 Undead Gladiator
    4 Undead Warchief
    2 Graveborn Muse
    2 Visara the Dreadful
    3 Gempalm Polluter
    4 Putrid Raptor

    3 Call to the Grave

    4 Barren Moor
    3 Unholy Grotto
    18 Swamps

    There are a few other tricks this deck can crank out that might be worth considering. Because so many creatures are hitting the graveyard through your own means, Patriarch's Bidding can suddenly revive a dangerous army. With Withered Wretch, this make the opponent's bidding worthless as well. Oversold Cemetary can allow for Gempalm Polluter recursion, or if you splash for red you can recur Gempalm Incinerators and wipe-out a Goblin deck. "
    .... Alvin Lau
  2. Rakamir New Member

    I'll tell you what I don't like about it - the maindeck Withered Wretches.

    WW is SO good in formats where the strongest decks have few critters, but Timmy Block Constructed (OnBC) is not one of those. Indeed, the card has only one target in TBC: Astral Slide, and therefore WW should be boarded in my opinion.

    Patriarch's Bidding, another horrible card vs the many tribal decks that will be seen (Goblins; Beasts; Zombies; possibly Clerics and perhaps Soliders and Elves; though not Wizards or Birds, I hope), forms such a tight combo with WW vs Astral Slide that this may evolve into a Tier One deck, and so PB should be boarded as well, I think.

    PB+WW is also NOT good vs my Oversold/Rotlung Clerics build, so even more reason to side it.

    The new Abyss, Call to the Grave, is probably not ready for prime time Type Two due to its high casting cost, but Block is a bit slower, so I like it. Pretty bad vs the mirror, though. :)

    People who think Stabilizer will crush the closest thing OnBC has to "control," the CONTROL/Aggro Astral Slide deck, will be disappointed, as Stabilizer is a sideboard card, and Slide maindecks Akroma's Vengeance. And has 2 Daru Sanctifiers main and Demystifys side for heinous enchantments like Call to the Grave.
  3. Rakamir New Member

    I'm sorry. I meant I would not maindeck Wretched ANURID in that deck. The Withering Wretches stay to pair with Patriarch's Bidding after game one, and in the first game they are at least a 2/2 zombie for 2, and possible defense vs Oversold Cemetary decks.

    It is Wretched ANURID I would not play main vs a 90% critter heavy field. Not sure what to replace it with though ... it might just be the best choice for that 2-slot. It will interesting to see how Astral Slide decks will change in the wake of hate old and new against them (and they were HEAVILY hated against at Venice).
  4. Rakamir New Member

    Red has traditionally been Black's enemy. Every now and then R&D will throw black a bone, like Engineered Plague, but that's a sideboard card and one you may never draw before speed kills you.

    So loking at the deck above, I see I want to side out about half the deck vs Gobbos, which is too much. Oh, well, back to the drawing board. I'd keep these, though:

    4 Gempalm Polluter (BB cycled)
    4 Withered Wretch ((BB) think of it as a bear)
    4 Undead Gladiator (B1 cycled, BB3 to replay or BB2 to cycle)
    4 Undead Warchief (BB2)
    4 Skinthinner (morph BB3) non-black Critter killer when morphed, should say "kill target Rorix, or Dragon or Beast DuJour"
    4 Putrid Raptor
    2 Visara the Gamewinner (what the heck)
    0 Graveborn Muse (horrible vs Gobbos)
    0 Patriarch's Bidding (board for Slide)
    0 Wretched Anurid
    0 Call to the Grave (board it, too expensive vs Gobbos)
    0 Silver Knight (because its white)

    OK, so far that's 24 zombies, including Polluters, so 20 you actually play. Let's find 2 more Zombies:

    2 Carrion Feeder (B) (what the heck)

    We're up to 28 cards. Need 7 or 8 more. Ever notice how sweet the Skulltap/OversoldCemetary combo is? Why not?

    3 Oversold Cemetary (B1)
    4 Skulltap (B1, sac a critter - draw 2 cards)

    Lingering Death is suboptimal, but possible. Although you DO take "only" 12 from Rorix with it ... pause.

    35 cards. You're on your own from here. Sideboard, anyone?
  5. train The Wildcard!!!...

    Noxious would help against the gobbos...

    Infest even...
  6. Rakamir New Member

    Thanks, train, I'll think about it. Someone else has contacted me re Infest as well. Basically, tho, the deck is already tuned a tad to beat Gobbos, which WILL be played in large numbers, Silver Knight or no Silver Knight, cuz the childrens like their mountains, right? I know I do. :)

    I choose, however, to board Smother for Gobbos. In comes straight in for Skinthinners, which first game you hardcast, as 5cc is a tad too expensive vs Gobbos.

    My current board:

    3 Patriarch's Bidding
    4 Wretched Anurid

    These come in straight up for the Skulltap/Cemetary combo vs Slide. My belief is to add speed to beat Slide ... I have no time to die horribly to 2 Slides, 2 Rifts, or an Angel, Rift, and Slide in play.
    And yes, I believe Slide will adapt to get around Stabilizer, which I won't play since I have plenty of cycling, myself.

    My friend also convinced me that 4 Carrion Feeders and 2 Polluters is better. Agreed.

    He also hates the Skulltap/Cemetary combo, thinking Graveborn Muse is better. Eh...maybe. ST/OC is in my Utility Clerics build, which shines thanks to Rotlung Reanimators. But I still like it here. GM shouldn't be far from anyone's thoughts as they test, however, and perhaps 4 Biddings and 3 Muses might be the better sub. We'll see.

    4 Smother <=== gobbos, kinda crappy vs Beasts/Dragons, etc., unless you have an unnatural fear of Wirewood Elf.
    4 Call to the Grave

    For Beasts. And that's from Todd of TOGIT, who also discovered Skirk Prospector. Too expensive vs Gobbos and Slide, this is a card Fat decks will not want to see. Finally,

    Putrid Raptor rocks! :)
  7. train The Wildcard!!!...

    Smother is not bad...

    The main reason I like infest, and noxious, is that it affects all creatures and not just one.

    Also with smother - if you're picking off 2 power creatures, their toughness may not be much bigger than 2 - Silklash Spider is an obvious exception

    Looking deeper into OnBC - There are 99 creatures(without scourge) in OnBC that have power 2. Only 19 of those have a toughness greater than 2, and most of those are not likely to see play, aside from Seedborn Muse, and maybe Silklash Spider... That means your probability of Infest being strong vs. these creatures is just over 80% - that's pretty darn good.

    Here's the play example I can think of from your opponents view:
    1: Goblin
    2: Attack, play goblin, goblin
    3: attack play goblin, goblin

    At this point - you've taken maybe 5 points of damage... Now you can smother, and get rid of 1 or infest and get rid of all 5. Then you can begin playing your zombies and maintain control of the board, instead of swapping creatures early...

    Other cards are strong, but against tribal... infest and noxious are cruel... very cruel... Smother is more of a universal card as it gets past the toughness barrier.

    I think it all comes down to what you'd like to play, or how you feel your deck does against those decks.

    If your friend would do so, have them build a goblin deck to run against your zombies and see which is more beneficial...

    Good Luck!

    Train.
  8. Rakamir New Member

    One reason to play Smother over Infest is to save your own critters. I like Infest, no question, and your Gobbos example is fine, but consider we face this:

    Gobbos: Mountain, Skirk Prospector, done.
    Us: <gulp>
    Gobbos: Mountain, sac Prospector, Goblin Warchief, attack for 2.
    Us: <our worst nightmare is upon us> We're at 18.
    Gobbos: Mountain, Goblin Goon, attack for 8.
    Us: We're at 10. Lovely.

    Next turn, the 4th one, they play a 2-power gobbo, or Shock, and win. This assumes of course we're creature-light, that Goon + Warchief is greater than the number of critters we have in play, and that they got a Godhand.

    In that situation, I'm liking my 2cc Smother over your 3cc Infest.

    On the other hand, I like a combo of Festering Goblin, who is also a Zombie, and Infest. I just can't see where at the moment to fit him in. Such a combo will kill Thoughtbound Primoc, which Infest alone won't do, yet Smother will. Fliers are an enemy to black decks. I hope we don't have to play Hollow Spectre to defeat that. I have Visara and Skinthinner main for such nasty stuff.

    BTW, you know what a cool card Zombies could use for the mirror?
    Souless One.
    "How many Zombos in your gy and play? 12? I have 11. And two warchiefs in play. So I cast Souless One for B3, lessee, it's ... only a .... 27/25." :)

    "What withered wretch is this that oft waylays the best-laid plans of mice, and men?"
    ... Wm. Shakespeare (not really)

    Rakamir of Gondor
    Being the late JarJaromir's younger brother

    "Scusa mee, Kinga Strider sir, but meesa no seea how we canna protecta Gondor from Mordor! Thema Nazgul waya too strong!"
    ... JarJaromir, before being beheaded by an orc, to the cheers of millions ....
  9. train The Wildcard!!!...

    Great points on Infest - and of course my example given was without your creatures on the board...

    False Cure, Death Match, and Endemic Plague may also be something worth looking into - just for the mirror...

    News flash to me too... duh...

    Smother destroys a creature with converted mana cost 3 or less...

    Swat destroys power 2 or less...

    We were both talking about the wrong card...

    Now smother gets rid of the Primoc...;)
  10. Shiro Time Devourer I have returned!

    Since Zombie decks are apparently all the rage here, mise well post my post-SC Block offering, am I right?

    20 Swamp
    4 Cruel Revival
    1 Head Games
    1 Oversold Cemetery
    2 Graveborn Muse
    2 Call to the Grave
    4 Vengeful Dead
    4 Festering Goblin
    4 Misery Charm
    4 Gempalm Polluter
    4 Carrion Feeder
    4 Nantuko Husk
    2 Smother
    4 Shepherd of Rot

    SB:
    4 Infest
    4 Withered Wretch
    3 Cabal Interrogator
    3 Haunted Cadaver
    1 Stabilizer
  11. train The Wildcard!!!...

    19 Swamp
    2 Cabal Coffers
    2 Cruel Revival
    4 Duress
    3 Haunting Echoes
    1 Call to the Grave
    4 Vengeful Dead
    4 Festering Goblin
    4 Mutilate
    4 Gempalm Polluter
    4 Dark Banishing
    2 Coat of Arms
    4 Shepherd of Rot
    3 Mind Sludge
  12. Rakamir New Member

    That's a Type Two listing, train. There are other excellent threads here to discuss Type Two zombies, but thanks anyway. Btw, don't splash green for Alpha Status or Souless Ones get very ugly, very fast.
  13. train The Wildcard!!!...

    :( :( :( :( :p

    I know it's type 2... but it's the only zombie deck I had...

    "It plays well though...":cool:
  14. Rakamir New Member

    I'm sure it plays well, good luck with it. Anyway, all this talk makes me realize I haven't written my full listing yet, so I'll do that now. I've decided to take out 2 Undead Gladiators for 2 Festering Goblins (they're Zombies, too!), just to give me a bit more one-drop chumpie action vs Gobbos, and a bit'o'Sparksmith kill. So here it is:

    Zombies (They don't come out just at night, anymore!)
    Onslaught aka Timmy Block Constructed
    Rakamir
    May 26, 2003

    2 Festering Goblin (B)
    4 Carrion Feeder (B)
    2 Gempalm Polluter (BB cycled or B5 for a 4/3)
    4 Withered Wretch (BB)
    3 Oversold Cemetary (B1)
    4 Skulltap (B1)
    2 Undead Gladiator (B1 cycle, BB1 or BBB2 hardcast, or BB2 recycled ... tis a versatile card, too bad it's a rare)
    4 Putrid Raptor (3+discard a zombie for 4/4, or BB4 hardcast)
    4 Skinthinner (3+BB3 destroy non-Black critter or B1 hardcast)
    4 Undead Warchief (BB2, the first time, Unholy Strength for everyone!)
    2 Visara the Gamewinner (BBB3)
    3 Unholy Grotto
    4 Barren Moor
    18 Swamp
    sideboard
    3 Patriarch's Bidding
    4 wretched Anurid
    4 Smother
    4 Call to the Grave
    0 Graveborn Muse

    Black is the color of GOOD, White the Color of EVIL,
    Rakamir
  15. Rakamir New Member

    Third turn OnBC kill (unlikely, but possible)

    turn one prospector (20)
    turn two warchief (18)
    turn three piledriver, piledriver, piledriver. (-5)

    Yikes!

    Thanks to blisterguy for that one.

    Oh, you didn't draw a Silver Knight, and you maindeck four?
    Tough luck. On to game 2.

    Hopefully, this points out the importance of one-drop critters.

    Nice goldfish .... dead goldfish.
  16. Rakamir New Member

    Preliminary playtesting vs Gobbos are in, and change the 4 Feeders + 2 Festering Goblins above to 4 FGoblins and 2 Feeders. This also brings the anti-critter cards main up to 10.
    I beat Gobbos on turn 10, 3 swings of 2 diffrent 6/4 PutridRaptorFor3+discardZombo + 1 Undead Warchief doing the trick, helped by an 8cc Skinthinner, Clickslither Killer. I was mana flooded (12 land) and drew 23 cards thanks to 2 Skulltaps and 1 Barren Moor.

    I hate Pemmin's Aura, pls ban it DCI, thanks,
    Rakamir
  17. Rakamir New Member

    I don't see Shulltap, or as I like to call it" "L'il Digger," being mentioned anywhere, save by a single soul buried in the Type 2 discussion over at the Brainburst post-Scourge T2 thread for Zombies, as a "sleeper" and a card to watch out for.

    I'll say. I've tested it plenty and just love the thing. Certainly it's no Ancestral Recall, FoF, or Deep Analysis, but unlike those it's black and the card advantage makes all the difference. The saccing a critter thing scares some, so ... play more critters! You'll need men anyway to chump, and since the undead will return either on their own (UnDGladiator, etc.), or through OCemetary, what's the problem? The synergy with cheap critters and Oversold Cem is obvious, and using it just brings you closer to Oversolds and a certain Gorgon Legend I have in mind, or sideboard "tech" like Stabilizer, or more and better critters. Talk about turning a drawback into an advantage! I guess some cry boo-hoo it's a Sorcery rather than an Instant, and would rather play the MUCH more expensive Graveborn Muse. Fine, do that then if that's what turns you on. Just remember that in a primarily Aggro world, you can use all the life points you can get, and in a world of Zombos, this turn's dead critter is next turn's live one, so saccing one is a small price to pay.
  18. Rakamir New Member

    Jerrod Bright, as usual, has a different take on the metagame. Here is his deck, click on the link for his explainations:

    ZOMBIES
    J. Bright - Late May 2003
    Onslaught Block Constructed

    4 Carrion Feeder
    3 Festering Goblin
    2 Gempalm Polluter
    3 Graveborn Muse
    4 Putrid Raptor
    4 Undead Warchief
    3 Withered Wretch
    4 Wretched Anurid
    3 Zombie Cutthroat

    3 Call to the Grave
    3 Smother

    20 Swamp
    4 Unholy Grotto

    Sideboard:
    3 Ark of Blight
    1 Call to the Grave
    2 Cruel Revival
    1 Graveborn Muse
    4 Infest
    3 Patriarch's Bidding
    1 Smother

    http://www.brainburst.com/db/print.asp?ID=3063
  19. train The Wildcard!!!...

    There's nothing wrong with Black Sligh...
  20. Rakamir New Member

    June 3 www.togit.com

    4 Festering Goblin
    2 Carrion Feeder
    2 Graveborn Muse
    2 Visara the Dreadful
    4 Undead Warchief
    3 Withered Wretch
    2 Gempalm Polluter
    4 Skinthinner
    4 Putrid Raptor
    3 Oversold Cemetery
    2 Call to the Grave
    4 Smother
    3 Unholy Grotto
    21 Swamp

    SB:

    4 Wretched Anurid
    2 Call to the Grave
    3 Patriarch’s Bidding
    2 Graveborn Muse
    4 Infest

    Wade's explainations:

    Card Explanations:

    "When examining this deck you must take into consideration the other main contenders, Slide and Sligh. Wretched Anurid is a difficult choice for the main deck. Sure it has a very efficient cost for what it is, but it can be the death of you in certain aggro match ups. Many people agree with me that it should be left in the sideboard, so that you can bring it in against Slide and other decks that don’t drop small cheap men in rapid succession. The one-drop slot is debatable, but I feel the 4:2 ratio between Uncle Fester and the new Zombie on the block, Carrion feeder, is the way to go. The Feeder cannot block, and thus could prove to be a terrible card against Sligh. On the other hand, the Festering Goblin has proved that it can be a very troublesome card to see on the other side of the board turn 1 or 2, making him a much more solid choice.

    Graveborn Muse is another card that can really put you in a tight spot against Sligh, which is why I split the 4 copies amongst the Side and Main board. Visara is a bomb that many decks have trouble finding answers to and thus should be played in every black deck in my opinion. Smother of course helps you in the Sligh match up as well as the mirror match, but isn't quite so useful against some of the other decks out there. I decided to keep them in the main deck though, simply because it can at least take out things like Thoughtbound Primocs and Wirewood Elves.

    Call to the Grave has had a lot of hype lately, and rightly so: it can win matches by itself sometimes. The problem is that it is a very slow card and thus proves to be less than appealing in the Sligh matchup, and proves infinitely dead in the mirror. It is of course still a very good card against Vegetation and the like, and thus merits a pair in the main as well as the side.

    Most of the other picks for the main board are pretty solid, except for one, Skinthinner. A couple different people recently recommended this card to me for the Zombie deck. Skinthinner is always a 2/1 Zombie for 1B if you need it, but its morph ability can prove to be very useful in certain matches. Not to mention you can recycle them with Oversold Cemetery or Unholy Grotto late game to provide for some expensive yet effective removal.

    Again I emphasize the sideboard options are tuned according to the two main contenders in the field. Bidding and Anurid come in vs. Slide very well, and Infest is a quick and easy answer to early Goblin beats. "

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