OnBC: NON-slide R/W

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Rakamir

Guest
Against Beasts, I'd bring in 2 Cic Solace, 2 Lay Wastes, and definitely 2 Vengeances. What to take out though? At least 4 White Knight. I'm thinking you're going to be taking White Knights out for Circles so much, you might want to make a maindeck change of -2 White Knight, +2 Circles. Then again, maybe not. First strikers are cool vs Elves and Gobbos and Zombies.
 
R

Rakamir

Guest
Game One: Lightning Rift for Knight Train does it. Slide gets out a Rift and Slide, but no Vengeances, and Knight Train has answers for everything in the form of Vengeance, Blessings, Wing Shards. They have the same cards, but Knight Train plays more defensively and uses their Enchantments against them, and they know it. Silver Knight proves to be the champion card, doing ten damage backing up Rift's ten. White Knights held in hand, useless yet uneeded.

Subs: I took train's advice and went
-4 White Knight
+2 Vengeance +2 Circle of Solace
(I'd forgotten the main already has 2 Wipe Cleans. Good.)

Slide subs:
-8 Enchantments -4 Spark Spray
+1 Akroma's Vengeance +1 Wing Shards +4 Silver Knight +2 Akroma, Angel of Beatstick +4 Avarax

Game Two: Dragons vs Dragons
Knight Train wins in the longest dam match ever played. Rifts are hiding (2 in library at end). Train has 8 cards in library at end, Slide 10. The difference was Train drew all three Dragons, Slide only 1. All 8 Vengeances spent, all Wing Shards on each others' Silver Knights. All Starstorms, too. Key play: Triple-Shocking Slide's Dragon to stay alive. Two Dragons attacking one blocking wins it.

If this is what the Slide mirror feels like, I want no part of it. WHAT a headache. In real life, the 2nd game is called on time, which I now realize is a GOOD thing.
 
R

Rakamir

Guest
I do not know yet. I have not played Jensen Neo-Veggies with Dragons-for-Muse vs Zvi No-Timberwatch SuperElves yet. If one of those Premium decks goes 2-0 in games, it plays Knight Train in round 2. Otherwise, Kiniggets faces either Zombies or Beasts (I'll roll a die to see which). I know you hope for Zombies, and I do too, cuz I'd love to Bidding after Head Games-ing you (what's a Vengeance?). :p

Come to think of it, I'll have to roll for one of the three decks that went 2-1, should Veggies/Elves take 3 games. DCI Reporter, I'm not.
 
R

Rakamir

Guest
GW Veggies eeks out a 3rd game win against Elves to finish Round 1, so the die was rolled for 2nd round pairings. First round standings:

1. Knight Train Slide-less RW 1-0, 2-0
T2. Rakamir Aggro-Zombies 1-0, 2-1
T2. Rubin/Huey Vegetibitables 1-0, 2-1
T2. Sorino/Bright Beasts 1-0, 2-1
T5. Osyp Goblins 0-1, 1-2
T5. Zvi Super Elves 0-1, 1-2
T5. Burn/Rakamir Dragons 0-1, 1-2
8. Peppermint Slide 0-1, 0-2

In winning their first round matches, the Top 4 have guaranteed themselves entry into Mini-Tourney 2

And the new pairings are ....

Knight Train vs Zombies
- curse you, train! You HAD to go and maindeck White Knights, huh? Well, you better hold on to those Wipe Cleans cuz if I get Cover of Darkness I'll make them cower in fear!! :)

Beasts vs GW Veggies

Elves vs Dragons

Goblins vs Slide

I'll probably run the last two matches first, just to see which decks get kicked out of the gauntlet, as the losers will have no chance to make Top 4. I might not even run them against each other, since it will be bye-bye. I might though, too.

The question is, what to replace them with? Here are some of the candidates, and I'm open to suggestions...

Loser/Replacement:

Dragons/ Kamahl RG Veggies
Goblins/ Burn
Slide/ BW Control
Elves/ Elves with Timberwatch Elves over Elvish Guidance

GP Detroit is coming up fast, and I hope to run at least two gauntlet mini-tourneys by then.
 
T

train

Guest
I'd say dragons/kamahl veggies...

"And all knights have first strike... tis their WOTC given right!";) :p
 
R

Rakamir

Guest
Mike Croeser has a decklist "similar" to yours up at Brainburst NOT-the-Premium, except he uses Dragons rather than Angels.

You see, train? You're way ahead of the game. GO CPA Alliance!!

I'll give the link after I list the deck, but I'd like to point out a telling comment he makes in his final notes, first:

"This deck may eventually mutate into something like R/W control and lose the Dragon theme altogether; imagine replacing Kilnmouth with Akroma or Jareth and using Exalted Angel instead of Rorix. Be creative. " ... Mike C.

White Dragon
Mike Croeser

Main Deck

4 Eternal Dragon
4 Kilnmouth Dragon
3 Rorix Bladewing
4 Silver Knight

4 Akroma's Vengenace
3 Carbonize
4 Shock
4 Starstorm
4 Wing Shards

4 Grand Coliseum
9 Mountain
11 Plains
2 Temple of the False God

board

1 Carbonize
3 Form of the Dragon
4 Stabilizer
3 White Knight
4 Wipe Clean

http://www.brainburst.com/db/article.asp?ID=3162
 
T

train

Guest
Just to re-emphasize...

"This deck may eventually mutate into something like R/W control and lose the Dragon theme altogether; imagine replacing Kilnmouth with Akroma or Jareth and using Exalted Angel instead of Rorix. Be creative. " ... Mike C.
Click to expand...

And I'm not at Brainburst, don't visit them anymore...

"You all read it here first on the CPA... "
;) :cool:
 
R

Rakamir

Guest
Well, you might want to again. I find that the NON-premium writers make more sense than the Premium writers, many of which seem to be "thinking" too much rather than playtesting enough, or sowing dis-information to each other, which annoys me.

2nd round results is finished, will type them up now.
 
R

Rakamir

Guest
2nd Round Results

Knight Train beats Zombies, 2-1

Zombies just overwhelms game 1, but makes enough boarding mistakes, bad luck via draws and Knight Train draws 4 of 4 White Knights and 3 Disciples of Grace (keep them!) to rule completely the final 2 games. In spite of what I've said before, my boarded Biddings now become 4 Calls to the Grave in MT2. I was wrong, I admit it. And this is why we playtest, to prove to ourselves stuff like when we Bidding and say "Zombies, " Knight Train can say "Dragon Spirit," and .... that's the end of that.

Beasts beats GW Veggies 2-0

2 medium length games, Veggies never drew the Vengeance it desparately needed. If the top tier turns out to be Anti-Control Beasts, Anti-Aggro Beasts, and Anti-Beasts Beasts, I won't be surprised. Ummm, maybe drop that last one for Knight Train. We'll see.

Dragons CRUSH Elves 2-0

They did crush, and 2 Starstorms in the first ten cards in both games helped plenty, you betcha. Friends don't let friends play Elves.

Goblins beat Slide 2-1

Stabilizer. Sulfuric Vortex. I'll say no more.

2nd Round Standings:

Deck/Matches/Games:

T1. Knight Train 2-0 4-1 <=== Guaranteed Top 4
T1. Beasts 2-0 4-1 <=== guaranteed Top 4
3. Dragons 1-1 3-2
T4. Zombies 1-1 3-3
T4. Goblins 1-1 3-3
6. GW Veggies 1-1 2-3
T7. Elves 0-2 1-4
T7. Astral Slide 0-2 1-4

3rd round Pairings:

Knight Train vs Beasts <=== No ID's allowed !!

Dragons vs Goblins <=== Winner makes Top 4

Zombies vs GW Veggies <=== Winner makes Top 4

elves vs slide
 
R

Rakamir

Guest
We have an undefeated deck, and it's Beasts.

Game 1. I got plenty of fast drops, and Wing Shards, and Blessings, the one Vengeance, yet a mana-screwed Beasts still won. His fourth card in like turn 20 was Contested Cliffs, and things went downhill after this. Mana screwed Beasts = Firstful of critters for Amplify. Not pretty.

Sudeboarding, tell me if you would do this:

Beasts: -3 Shock, +3 Wirewood Savages
-Beasts doesn't like to board a lot, except against Goblins. Losing the shocks, er, 3 of em, means an Angel comes up from play morphed, but, does Beasts care? See: Cliffs, Crawlers.

Knights: -3 Starstorm, -1 White Knight -2 Wipe Clean
+2 Akroma's Vengeance + 2 Circle of Solace + 2 Lay Wastes
I wish it was
+2 Akroma's Vengeance +4 Insurrection, but you're not running that card. Think about it, please.

Jareth stays in as it was useful in game one.

Game 2: Knights win, thanks to two unmolested Dragons in play. (he didn't get Cliffs out). Lightning Rift helped, too. Blessings are gold in this matchup. He got out all of his Baloths and Primocs. The extra Vengeances helped plenty.

Game 3: Cliffs, Warchief, 2 Crawlers. Circs and Lay Wastes were never drawn.

All three games were longish and hard fought. A better draw for Knights here, a worse one for Beasts there, and things go differently. Knights do get to empty hand quicker here than against any other deck, seeing as how the cycling cards are better off hardcast.

Please consider replacing the Circles of Solace and Lay Wastes with Insurrections. Circs have never helped me in any game, in any match, and Lay Wastes aren't exactly in there for their cycling ability.
 
T

train

Guest
Modified Sideboard...

The only downfall to Insurrection is that you end up with an 8cc spell... before which the dragon was most expensive at 7, and 1 specific mana less... The only thing nulling this point would be the long game...

Creatures:
4 Silver Knight
3 Eternal Dragon
2 Exalted Angel
1 Jareth Leonine Titan
4 White Knight

Spells:
4 Lightning Rift
4 Starstorm
3 Akroma's Blessing
1 Akroma's Vengeance
4 Shocks
4 Wing Shards
2 Wipe Clean

Lands:
10 Plains
10 Mountain
2 Forgotten Cave
2 Secluded Steppe

Sideboard:
3 Disciple of Grace
3 Foothill guides
3 Akroma's Vengeance
1 Wipe Clean
3 Insurrection
2 Sulfuric Vortex
 
R

Rakamir

Guest
I see you slipped a little Sulfuric Vortex in there. For why?
Insurrection has it's down side, I know, but it's war vs Beasts time. I don't care how expensive a card is, if I can drag the game out and get 8 mana and play something that says "I win" on it, that is what Matha Stewart would call "a good thing." Of course, Stewart ain't gonna win anything, they're out to GET her, much like Goblins at Detroit, and soon after that, Beasts. Your 1st round opponent in Top 4 will be Zombies, train. Hopefully he won't be stupid this time and will bring in Cruel Revivals other than silly Biddings. Beasts will face Gobbos in the other semi, so SHOULD you face him in the finals, please share specific subs for each player. I want a tight finals, thanks.

BTW, I don't change decks in the middle of tourneys, so I mean your OLD sideboard. Thanks.
 
T

train

Guest
Okay here's an explanation for changes to sideboard...

-Got rid of the circles, lay wastes, a foothill guide, and 1 wipe clean.
-Added Vengeance, 3 insurrection, 2 vortex...

-There are already 2 wipes in the main, 1 more from side makes 3 - and really only useful vs. slide, maybe zombie(call...)... also vengeances are in deck - that's 6 enchantment control(3 mass)
-The lay wastes were cliffs specific, but if there are no beasts, cliffs just smiles and waves... thus the insurrections and vengeances...
-Circles I feel can help if drawn, and out, but not when vengeanced... and I really want vengeance to kill as little of my stuff as possible...
- 1 Foothill leaves, but with 8 first strikers, and 3 pro:gobbos, starstorms, shocks, blessings, etc... this shouldn't hurt...

The Insurrections are your idea, however - I don't want to insurrect, and the opponent revenous and gain 4 per beast... so them sac-ing them, or me sac-ing them makes no difference... enter vortex - and a few smacks to the noggin don't hurt... not with the fast drop first strikers, and blessings...

Vortex also nulls angels(yes 2 of mine own... but 4 of the opposing...) it also stops renewed faith(if run) and any other fun life-gain out there... If I run into elves - wellwishers just smile and wave...

Creatures:
4 Silver Knight
3 Eternal Dragon
2 Exalted Angel
1 Jareth Leonine Titan
4 White Knight

Spells:
4 Lightning Rift
4 Starstorm
3 Akroma's Blessing
1 Akroma's Vengeance
4 Shocks
4 Wing Shards
2 Wipe Clean

Lands:
10 Plains
10 Mountain
2 Forgotten Cave
2 Secluded Steppe

Sideboard:
3 Disciple of Grace
3 Foothill guides
3 Akroma's Vengeance
1 Wipe Clean
3 Insurrection
2 Sulfuric Vortex

For gobbos - in foothill guides, and out wipe cleans... maybe vengeance????...

For zombies - in disciples, out wipe cleans 3rd would be up to you... rift maybe since cycling isn't that big with zombies...

for beasts - in akroma's, insurrection, and vortex... out wipe cleans, and starstorms, maybe a white knight or 2...

Slide - in vortex, vengeance, out starstorm???...
 
R

Rakamir

Guest
Well, I'll just speak to the Zombies and Beasts matchups.

versus Beasts, the Rifts go away. They're simply not going to be used in a deck that absolutely has to hardcast its cycling cards just to survive the Beasts match-up. In their place I bring in 4 Insurrections, straight-up. Rather simple boarding, on my part. Having four MAY clog hand, but so what? Having four increases the odds of drawing one, and playing them in consectutive turns it sweet, if the first one doesn't do the job. OK, maybe 3 is fine in such a slow deck, but I'm paranoid.

Ravenous Baloth? I HOPE they sac ALL their beasts to it, and gain mega life, losing all their critters in the process. Then, we'll commence the flying beatdown and kill them before they can build back up.

They won't, though, they still want to win, and I think the better players will sac just enough to take the hits that won't kill them and try to kill you next turn. I said "try." You'll get to mega mana fairly fast on the road to annoying them, and should have quite a bit on the table as you string the game out, which is pretty much your friggin' job, right? What I mean is: Enough to hardcast a Blessing on their turn AFTER insurrecting. You get to 12 mana quite fast you know, even without cycling.

So, for THIS mini-tourney (MT1), I'll sideboard......
+4 Lightning Rift -2 Wipe Clean
+ 2 Akroma's Vengeance +2 Lay Waste +2 Circle of Solace,
and +2 Vengeance +4 Insurrections for MT No. 2

Jarrod Bright, in a NOT-Premium Brainburst article on Vegetable Decks, gave me the idea of Insurrection. I like to give credit where credit is due.

I was DUMB to take out the Starstorms. Even if they spot remove an Elf, that's cool, and Primoc is a royal pain. Hopefully Knight Train will have better luck now.

Back to Baloth vs Insurrection:

Hopefully you won't let them keep a Baloth. Without Baloth, they should die to Insurrection. You have the olde Shock/Wipe Clean combo, Vengeance, 6cc Starstorms (withOUT Crawler in play). You have the tools, you Red/White controllish beatstick, you.

Zombies is next, so:

I'll be bringing in Cruel Revivals, staight-up. I was dumb not to do so before. Biddings are... feh, not spectacular here. So let me think, you have .... 3 Discipiles, and Circles for Zombies, and Vengeances. What to take out?

I think Rift is huge vs Zombies game 1, but I'll probaly take out my 1ccs for the Cruels and additional CoD's for your Knights and Clerics, so....I see why you say to take out the rifts. You have shocks and storms for the undead chief, so:
-4 Rift -2 Wipe Cleans (though maybe not the wipe cleans, CoD's are cruel), so just -4 Lightnng Rift
+3 Disciple of Grace +1 Akroma's Vengeance
This is a tough boarding problem, actually. You have more you'd like to put in than you'd like to take out, but why should today be unlike any other day and why should we be happy?
Should be a great match.

I only want Sulfuric Vortex in one deck, Goblins, for only one other deck, Slide, and then only to back up Stabilizer. But that's just me, I guess. :)

PS Don't worry about Wellwisher. The elf deck just dies to your cards. Believe.
 
T

train

Guest
The reason the vortex is in there is for life gain period... If I was to Insurrect, I'd want the vortex out vs. beasts because that's a flat 2 dmg, every turn plus my critters... that don't get sac-ed...

It's also helpful vs. wellwishers, and I think the Insurrections will be the kill vs. slide - so they don't need life gian either...

"Try it - you might like it...";)
 
R

Rakamir

Guest
I know it's good against Wellwishers, it's just that I consider Elf decks unplayable. Sure, they beat Beasts and Goblins, but what else? You don't need vortex to crush them.

One deck you may need it against, however, is that BW deck going around, recently promoted by Zvi. Zvi's deck has 22 land ...
with lots of WW and BB and even BBB in the casting costs, ....

<pause>

... and revolves around GravebornMuse/Renewed Faith with Twisteds, Dragons, Angels.....
Anyway, that deck dies to Gobbos too, apparently. It seems the only decks that beat Goblins consistently are Elves, MWC, both third tier decks, and anti-Gobbos Clerics, in a tier so low its depths have yet to be plumbed.
 
R

Rakamir

Guest
Here ya go, train, the deck that won Detroit, beating Eugene Harvey and Osyp's Slide deck in the Finals:

Bob Maher - GP Detroit OnBC Champion's Deck

4 Forgotten Cave
4 Secluded Steppe
8 Mountain
11 Plains
-------------------------------
27 land

3 Aktroma, Angel of Wrath
4 Eternal Dragon
4 Silver Knight
-----------------------------------
11 creatures

4 Starstorm
4 Lightning Rift
3 Renewed Faith
3 Decree of Justice
4 Akroma's Vengeance
4 Wing Shards
-----------------------------------
22 other spells

Board:

2 Oblation
2 Decree of Annihilation
1 Decree of Justice
2 Temple of the False God
4 Wipe Clean
4 Shock

Speaking for myself, I love it when decks with lands in the board do well. :)
 
T

train

Guest
AHEM!!!...

Can I call them or what!....

R/W non-slide!...

A deck with white!...

Now - we'll have to see how it develops from here...

:cool:
 
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