Old cards: Powerful, or Broken?

[jorael]

I prefer basic lands in most of my decks. All non-basics (except the duals) have their disadvantages and opponents could pack some non-basic land hate if they know you always use them.

Land that come tapped in play are slooow. No way I could use 24 of those in one deck. Damage for mana is something I don't like either. Artifact lands are easily destroyed so I only use those if they sere a purpose.

I really like the 'tainted' lands from Torment. They give black mana and one other color, but require you to play with swamps. Good, not broken.

 

[Tabasco]

You want to see a disadvantage to running dual lands?...watch what happens when a Sundering Titan comes into play...He is one of the hottest artifacts in vintage right now because of his ability to clear your opponents duals right off the board...It makes playing Sacred Ground a smart choice!!

 

[TheCasualOblivion]

I see some people agreeing with me here.

The thing is, do I think these cards should be reprinted and brought back to the game in real life? God no. And there really isn't that much point. These cards are still plentiful(aside from dual lands) and not really hard to get if you do want them. I have 4(or more) of all of them except the Mishra's Factories, which I haven't gotten around to yet.

The thing is, what kind of game are we talking about here. I still say that in a casual deck, these cards are fairly harmless. Powerful, yes, but not really anything overly dangerous. In a well tuned tournament deck it would be a different story, but this is the Casual Players Alliance after all.

The most powerful thing in magic is not broken cards like this but tempo and synergy. Look at Ravager Affinity, are any of the cards in that deck broken by themselves. Are any cards in that deck more than just mediocre by themselves. But look how they work together and build the dominant deck out there right now.

I've always held that if you're playing a casual deck, your deck isn't tuned so tight, or doesn't have the tempo, or the focus to break cards. Isn't that the point? Also, I've always held that playing casual you generally ignore the rules of tournament construction aside from those that are polite(observing the T1 Restricted list).

If you aren't building broken decks, there really isn't any reason to whine about any of these cards.

 

[DÛke]

If you aren't building broken decks, there really isn't any reason to whine about any of these cards.

Let me flip the coin then...

If you aren't building broken decks...there isn't any reason to whine about the absence of these cards.

Let me flip an another coin...

In a well tuned tournament deck it would be a different story, but this is the Casual Players Alliance after all.

Yes, after all...this is the Casual Players Alliance. And after all, you're already playing these cards from what it seems like, being the so casual player that you are, then tell me...just what is the point of reprinting them?

Could it be because you wanted them in a new edition which will be played even in a standard environment?

I'm sorry, or maybe I'm not too sorry...but the more you voice your opinion about the cards and the subject matter in general, the more obsecure "the point" behind this conversation becomes.

 

[Gizmo]

Originally posted by Reverend Love
I disagree; it's not only dual lands. Basic lands are obsolete regardless of what's in print. Painlands, Fetchlands, Glimmervoids, Manlands, all replace x4 basic lands. Basic lands have and always will be filler land. Dual lands are only the most indicative of the bunch.

Basic lands rule the roost of draft, everywhere else they play second chair, as should be.

No because the other cards all have drawbacks. Dual Lands have no drawback. I can't really spell it out much clearer than that. \you want a deck of 24 painlands? No I didnt think so. A deck of 24 Mossfire Valleys? A deck of 24 Fetchlands?

The bottom line should ALWAYS be that if you want red mana no card should be better than a Mountain. If you want a choice of mana you can play a non-basic land that has drawbacks and is worse at producing red mana than a Mountain.

Dual lands are bad, mmmkay?

Originally posted by TheCasualOblivion

The most powerful thing in magic is not broken cards like this but tempo and synergy. Look at Ravager Affinity, are any of the cards in that deck broken by themselves. Are any cards in that deck more than just mediocre by themselves. But look how they work together and build the dominant deck out there right now.

The artifact lands are broken. Alll of them.

They all tap for two mana (because of Affinity) and have a host of sacrifice effects on top (due to other cards in the format). Randy Buehler got practically assaulted by half the Pro Tour community as recent GPs, demanding to know why they had printed the artifact lands because they are so obviously broken. The recent GP was won by somebody with Affinity who was playing it absolutely abysmally, but won anyway because his deck was so powerful - that's the signature mark of brokenness.

I know they are being considered very closely for imminent banning.

You're about to come back and go 'see it's about synergy!'. But virtually all broken card arguments are about synergy that comes too easily and to too great a benefit.

Is Tolarian Academy on it's own broken? No. Is Memory Jar? No. Is Channel? No. Is Replenish? No.

Artifact lands fit into that category, without a doubt. It's like playing with a free Mana Flare.

 

[TheCasualOblivion]

Originally posted by DÛke
Let me flip the coin then...

If you aren't building broken decks...there isn't any reason to whine about the absence of these cards.

Let me flip an another coin...

Yes, after all...this is the Casual Players Alliance. And after all, you're already playing these cards from what it seems like, being the so casual player that you are, then tell me...just what is the point of reprinting them?

Could it be because you wanted them in a new edition which will be played even in a standard environment?

I'm sorry, or maybe I'm not too sorry...but the more you voice your opinion about the cards and the subject matter in general, the more obsecure "the point" behind this conversation becomes.

I think I stated before on this topic that I personally think its ludicrous to reprint these in real life. I think I said so in the one you're quoting there. I was kind of talking about an online set, for purposes of reference, apprentice, or putting up something in defiance against the crap that has been 5th-8th Edition. Something we could put up on this site. That's all it was for, and I was up for discussion on what should or shouldn't be in it. I was just putting my two cents in that the fun(I find them fun) and powerful cards should be let in, and the the cards that tend to finish out a tournament deck should be left out.

Above all else, I wanted to produce a Core Set made of the cards everybody uses. Shouldn't that be what the set is anyways? And people always used these cards. I remember back when I started in 4th edition when the percentage of cards in most peoples decks from the main set was about 50-80%. That was as much because of how bad Fallen Empires and Ice Age Block was, but still. I remember buying 4th edition packs because thats where the best cards were. That was the last core set where that was anywhere near true. How many cards from 8th edition(aka Portal 4th edition) are in the average deck these days?

Dual Lands had the small disadvantage of being non basic lands. They are a little less reliable when people are throwing stuff like Ruination and Wasteland around. Granted that isn't much, but...

 

[Notepad]

Originally posted by DÛke
I'm sorry, or maybe I'm not too sorry...but the more you voice your opinion about the cards and the subject matter in general, the more obsecure "the point" behind this conversation becomes.

I honestly think TCO just comes up with this stuff because he watches too much Oprah, and before that, Jerry Springer. Daily topics where the host may or may not voice a real opinion, but it gets all the old women in the audience to nod their heads, cheer, laugh and whatnot while they wait to watch a hooker fight or get a free car or whatever.

Hey, TCO, where's my hooker fights and my free car? Can I at least get a Japanese vending machine hot dog and watch it fight a cockroach?

 

[TheCasualOblivion]

It gives us something to talk about, and throw chairs at each other at least. I think I'm doing this board a service.

 

[Notepad]

I would agree with you, if only you'd give a nice book review and had Dr. Phil come on and accidentally fart or something. You know, to put that arrogant son of a-- oh, sorry...

*clears throat*

You're crazy man. Of course you do great stuff! I'll never forget, back in Sweeps Week 1985, when you put up the biggest ad in TV Guide for "Richard Garfield, Mark Rosewater, and the Gay Alien Gods who love them." and the one and only Bill Clinton came in and tried to rearrange the way we defined the word "is." Wow. Classic stuff.

But yeah, old cards are powerful for the most part, because there wasn't the advanced balancing and playtesting that we have in place now. Word.

And, Garfield is pretty sassy if you know what I mean...

 

[Ferret]

Very few cards actually can be called "broken" (I loathe that term) on their own. As has been stated, Artifact Lands are not broken - however, when they join up w/ cards that have Affinity (a bad idea if I ever saw one) they become powerful - however, if someone is smart they'll use cards like Shatterstorm or Seeds of Innocence (no life for you!) to deal w/ them. Artifact hate has always been alive and well (check your history books under Antiquities for more help w/ that).

The same can be said for Dual Lands - reprinting them is a bad idea, just because you'd be rendering so many other cards obsolete (and that would be bad for WotC's marketing dept). They had their time in the sun - they're only as good as the deck built around them. A Taiga is just a source of Green/Red mana - however, if it's used to summon a first turn Kird Ape, it's the source of a lot of pain.

Of course, some cards are "broken" because of the fact that they speed up the game. Black Lotus, Lotus Petal, the Moxen, Sol Ring, and any other artifact that produces more mana than their casting cost can be very devastating because of the fact that they can lead to early advantages (remember Channel/Fireball?) that can make the other player feel like he's not really competing, but is instead watching his opponent play solitaire...

-Ferret

"However, the only thing that makes a card seem 'broken' is if too many people lose to it and complain a lot..."

 

[Oversoul]

One, I don't think these are "staples". Yeah, most have been around since the first sets, but the first sets were also the "exploratory" phase of Magic with what turned out to be an unrealistic vision of the game (everyone only having and playing a max cardpool of about two starters), not a rigorous playtesting procedure, and not a deep understanding about the powerful inherent mechanics of the game, namely that drawing cards is god (they kinda got that with Ancestral Recall but didn't fully get it, hence Library of Alexandria and Bazaar of Baghdad).

Two, the reason why they're seen all the time is because of their effects per cc, not because they are "staples". You don't see Pearled Unicorn or Gray Ogre, though they have been around since the beginning and due to that line of reasoning, are also "staples".

Whoa, I said that they were staples which had been around since the beginning of the game. I didn't say that they were staples because they had been around since the beginning of the game. I don't think that they are seen all the time anymore. Nothing in my reasoning would indicate that Pearled Unicorn or Gray Ogre could be a staple.

Anyway, my thinking on these cards, with the exception of probably just the dual lands, is that they can be good (sometimes too good) in the less powerful formats but aren't particularly amazing in Vintage or even Legacy.

Hypnotic Specter: It has potential in monoblack decks in Legacy. I don't think any winning deck in Vintage has used it for quite some time now.

Dual Lands: Total staples in both Legacy in Vintage. They are some of the most useful lands in the game.

Lightning Bolt: Particularly important in Sligh, which does well in Legacy. Vintage decks rarely want it because it is not the best creature removal and hitting players is not often useful (still it has seen at least moderate use).

Swords to Plowshares: Excellent creature removal that is seen in both formats. Almost any deck which can use white considers this for sideboard slots and sometimes maindeck slots.

Kird Ape: Only useful in Zoo decks or other RG beatdown strategies. It's a nice card for certain Legacy decks.

Serendib Efreet: I don't know of any serious tournament decks using this right now. It's a good casual card though.

Hymn to Tourach: Like, the Specter, this thing is perfect for monoblack decks, but is not used at all in Vintage.

Control Magic: It's still good casually. But its effect is not often needed in tournaments, and it can be replaced by things like Treachery.

Counterspell: Quite important in monoblue control. In Vintage, Mana Drain is much better. In both formats, Force of Will is more important. And more often than not, Counterspell is inferior to Mana Leak.

Mishra's Factory: The best manland in the game. It shows up in decks that need such a card.

I don't think anything here is "broken" in the same way that something like Yawgmoth's Bargain or Time Walk is. I don't think any of these cards are chaff either. At least half of them have been at some point, what I would call a "staple."

 

[Notepad]

Its funny to note that stuff like Mishra's Factory and Channel were in 4th Ed. even after WotC made a conscious decision to remove power bomb/staples. It is the reason the likes of Granite Gargoyle got removed. Hmmm. Gargoyle = TOO STRONG, OMFG!!!!!111! Mishra's Factory = Can't be any worse than Oasis...

...riiiiiight...

I'm glad they think more balanced nowadays, even though they still screw up sometimes.

 

[Spiderman]

Whoa, I said that they were staples which had been around since the beginning of the game. I didn't say that they were staples because they had been around since the beginning of the game.

I'm not sure I understand the distinction you're making - I guess we have to go in what exactly is a "staple"? To me, the subtext of a card being a "staple" is because it's been around since the beginning (or a long time) and seen as always part of the set. It's just inherently part of the word itself.

Notepad: Well, Channel was still restricted so they probably wanted to see if people could use it like it was originally intended - to pay life to get mana for a creature, not a first turn kill. But they did mess up on the Factory and Strip Mine (although it was nice for me, coming in after Antiquities, to see them ) And I believe Balance was still in there too...

 

[Mooseman]

There are no real broken cards in casual play, but in tournaments there are many broken cards.
Now, the question I have is:
Do you really want to see the "old" cards reprinted for tournament play use or just to have them reprinted?
I would love to have use of those "old" cards for casual playm without morgaging my house. Maybe WoTC would reprint them with a different card back, maybe a casual play variant?

 

[TheCasualOblivion]

Print the old stuff as "legacy" cards with red borders. Leave out the high cost ones to keep the collectors happy. Have a DCI rule: Legacy cards are not legal in Extended or Standard.

 

[Spiderman]

Are there a shortage of these cards in your area and you're unable to trade for them?

 

[Crackdown]

I would like to see Mother of Runes reprinted.

 

[Killer Joe]

Mooseman is a friend of mine!!!!

Secondly: They COULD make a 'reprint' (non-tournament maybe) set called "Un-Broken" either have the original cards reprinted or variations of them that would STILL be broken in tourney play but are okay for casual play and also to make collectors happy.

Example:
~Mox's could have a cc of 1 colorless.
~Ancestral Recall made into a Sorcery
~STP's for 1W
~Strip Mine can put the land on the bottom of target player's Library
~Purple Mana!!!! Made from Shadow Lands

Get Krazy!

 

[TheCasualOblivion]

Are there a shortage of these cards in your area and you're unable to trade for them?

Nope, I've started over from scratch recently and bought nearly all of the stuff I have now as singles, it isn't a big problem, especially with online stores and ebay.

I've noticed a lot of people don't like buying singles though. They just buy packs. The idea was for them.

 

[Gizmo]

Print them off as proxies. It's not hard to make proxy cards almost indistinguishable from the real thing - there's a guy in our local shop who 'sells' his proxies so people can play with a full set of the power nine for practically nothing.

I put sells as 'sells' because it is of course illegal to sell fake cards. But you can give them away in return for nominal 'credits' which are redeemed by buying him boosters.