I think what really started killing creativity was preconstructed decks. At this point it seems that WotC said "well, these guys are too stupid to come up w/ their own ideas, so we'll creat the deck concepts ourselves" (although, pre-con decks are a guaranteed way to get some of the cards you might want...) Admittedly, one of my most succesful decks that I used on MTGO was from a pre-con deck I got (It's since been through massive evolutionary changes). This proves how much they want everyone to use the mechanics the develop.
The Kamigawa block is pretty bad w/ the whole Spirit/Arcane thing. It's almost encouraging block play above all else by making cards that only work w/ each other, but not to great w/ cards from other sets...
-Ferret
"I think that they should just have five people develop the colours independently and then put them together..."
The Kamigawa block is pretty bad w/ the whole Spirit/Arcane thing. It's almost encouraging block play above all else by making cards that only work w/ each other, but not to great w/ cards from other sets...
-Ferret
"I think that they should just have five people develop the colours independently and then put them together..."
J
jorael
Guest
Affinity is just too good. R&D admitted that. That is unfortunate for tournament players. I played a common affinity deck in our playgroup immediately when Mirrodin was out. Almost everyone in our playgroup did. And every affinity deck was nasty. Almost nobody plays it now anymore, because it isn't fun. The landaffinity aren't anything but broken, just good and fun! Fits the scourge theme perfectly. I would like to see more of such cards.
Yes, since Mirrodin block artifacts matter. Why is that a problem? Affinity is the only deck that is completely destroyed by mass artifact kill. Excellent! Before Mirrodin I played with disenchant, naturalize, scrap, keldon vandals and others. These days I certainly won't forget them. Enchantments and artifacts get destroyed, just like creatures. Cope
There are a LOT of artifacts that are fun to design decks with. And I'm very happy with Mirrodin for that reason. Some cards that I really like:
crystal shard
duplicant
lightning coils
pentavus
power conduit
scrabbling claws
skeleton shard (this one is nasty I have to admit, especially with myr retriever)
spellweaver helix
timesifter
And all the spellbombs and equipment
and the reprints:
bottle gnomes
triskelion
icy manipulator
Those are cards that inspire me to create decks with! And that's only the artifact section of the first expansion. I do not like the block's art much, but the cards are fine for creative deckbuilding.
Mirrodin, Darksteel and Fifth Dawn are more open for design than its predecessor: Onslaught block, if you ask me. Affinity may scream "USE LOTS OF ARTIFACTS STUPID!", but that's more open ended than USE LOTS OF ELVES/GOBLINS/ZOMBIES STUPID! Even O/L/S has some beautiful cards for open minded deck building, though.
Kamigawa seems to have some mechanics that don't have too much synergy. On the other hand, the whole samurai thing is very boring. Dorks with bushido...
Yes, since Mirrodin block artifacts matter. Why is that a problem? Affinity is the only deck that is completely destroyed by mass artifact kill. Excellent! Before Mirrodin I played with disenchant, naturalize, scrap, keldon vandals and others. These days I certainly won't forget them. Enchantments and artifacts get destroyed, just like creatures. Cope
There are a LOT of artifacts that are fun to design decks with. And I'm very happy with Mirrodin for that reason. Some cards that I really like:
crystal shard
duplicant
lightning coils
pentavus
power conduit
scrabbling claws
skeleton shard (this one is nasty I have to admit, especially with myr retriever)
spellweaver helix
timesifter
And all the spellbombs and equipment
and the reprints:
bottle gnomes
triskelion
icy manipulator
Those are cards that inspire me to create decks with! And that's only the artifact section of the first expansion. I do not like the block's art much, but the cards are fine for creative deckbuilding.
Mirrodin, Darksteel and Fifth Dawn are more open for design than its predecessor: Onslaught block, if you ask me. Affinity may scream "USE LOTS OF ARTIFACTS STUPID!", but that's more open ended than USE LOTS OF ELVES/GOBLINS/ZOMBIES STUPID!
Even O/L/S has some beautiful cards for open minded deck building, though.Kamigawa seems to have some mechanics that don't have too much synergy. On the other hand, the whole samurai thing is very boring. Dorks with bushido...
L
Limited
Guest
I've always played with artifact destruction, but a deck with four disenchants just doesn't stand a chance against affinity.
As for the guided deckbuilding:
It is of course true that a Undead Warchief screams for more zombies, just like Affinity tells you to play artifacts; the problem is (for me anyway) that affinity tells you to play affinity artifacts.. modular creatures tell you to play more modular creatures..
That's why Sunburst appeals to me; interaction with Domain Decks and obscure multicolored permanents leave some room for very different decks.
Affinity and Modular just seem to ensue themselves. If you try to make a funny affinity deck, you'll just end up with a bad affinity deck.
Makes me sad
As for the guided deckbuilding:
It is of course true that a Undead Warchief screams for more zombies, just like Affinity tells you to play artifacts; the problem is (for me anyway) that affinity tells you to play affinity artifacts.. modular creatures tell you to play more modular creatures..
That's why Sunburst appeals to me; interaction with Domain Decks and obscure multicolored permanents leave some room for very different decks.
Affinity and Modular just seem to ensue themselves. If you try to make a funny affinity deck, you'll just end up with a bad affinity deck.
Makes me sad
J
jorael
Guest
Trrue, true. All the artifact in the world can hardly stop affinity.
But: Mirrodin block = affinity --> isn't true. Mirrodin block has a whole lot more to offer. The impact of mirrodin on casual playgroups will probably be mostly non-affinity.
As for mass artifact kill, I recently aqcuired some red cards... STOP! Hammer time!
But: Mirrodin block = affinity --> isn't true. Mirrodin block has a whole lot more to offer. The impact of mirrodin on casual playgroups will probably be mostly non-affinity.
As for mass artifact kill, I recently aqcuired some red cards... STOP! Hammer time!
N
NorrYtt
Guest
I think Mirrodin is the second worst block in Magic's history (next to Urza's block) solely because of the monumental failure of the R&D developers.
Design-wise the set is beautiful. The 5 different mana myrs and the 5 artifact lands form a wonderful base to immerse your decks in an artificial plane. Manabases are better than ever because of easy to cast artifact cards and things like the Spellbombs. All the colors have a theme with artifacts.
Artifacts themselves became a color. If you play lots of artifacts, cards like Myr Enforcer, Frogmite, and Lodestone Myr are very powerful. If you supplemented blue, you have Thoughtcast, Broodstar, and Somber Hoverguard. If you supplement black, you have Nims and Skeleton Shard.
Equipment is a flavorful, tournament-worthy revamp of creature enchantments. The vulnerability and awkwardness of creature enchantments made them absolutely terrible for tournament play. Equipment is far more robust.
Imprint is entirely new. The modularity of Mirrodin is unprecedented.
But a great design team and a great creative team can be shot down by the developers. Now for the cons.
For multiplayer, all my opponents simply loaded up on the artifact removal to own me. I can't use Soul Foundry because it gets eaten by Shattering Pulse or Molder Slug. In fact, I can't use expensive or "clunky" artifacts period because there are Pernicious Deeds and Vengeances flying everywhere.
The colored artifacts lands are among the worst lands for multiplayer. One Deed, Vengeance, or Shatterstorm and you scoop. I've lost 12 permanents playing my Myr deck; Vengeance is basically a Jokulhaups targeting me.
What I'm saying is that I couldn't have any fun with my new Mirrodin cards because the answers were far more
brutal than the threats.
One-way untargetability like Troll Ascetic is just stupid. While it feels good when you're on the right side of the table, it's just far too annoying and discourages player interaction.
Darksteel artifacts are even worse. Making threats that are immune to removal is just stupid. This mechanic is should have been limited to Darksteel Citadel, Pendant, and Ingot, since I don't mind robust manabases. Darksteel Colossus is the best fattie ever printed, and he's not green.
Sundering Titan is no fun. At all. Remember when creatures that blow up lands where Demonic Hordes, Seismic Mage, Army Ants? Then they made them better and symmetrical with Keldon Firebombers and Desolation Angel? Well, lots of times Sundering Titan is an 8 mana 7/10 guy that Armageddons your opponent. Should never have been printed.
Skullclamp. Oh Skullclamp. Most tournament-dominating card ever? Top 8's showed up with 32 Skullclamps for 100% of the possible slots. Banned in almost all formats. "Distorting" the metagame is putting it lightly.
Now it seems that Standard, Mirrodin Block, and even Extended are overrun with the strongest and most robust aggro deck ever seen. Ravager Affinity is a deck where half it's plays are free and 1-for-1 artifact removal only loses you tempo if you paid more than 1 mana.
When I go to tournaments, I play Ravager Affinity or I play a worse deck.
I've had fun with Mirrodin cards. I had tons of fun with Skeleton Shard. I have a Power Conduit + Chalice of the Void deck. I have Nightmare Lashes in my Dancing Gnomes deck. I have an Arcane Isochron Scepter deck. I have a Cog / Door to Nothingness deck. I have a Mesmeric Orb deck.
But I haven't had nearly as much fun as I did during Odyssey or Onslaught block. Cranking the power level through the roof and throwing the color pie out the window does not make for a very good game.
Design-wise the set is beautiful. The 5 different mana myrs and the 5 artifact lands form a wonderful base to immerse your decks in an artificial plane. Manabases are better than ever because of easy to cast artifact cards and things like the Spellbombs. All the colors have a theme with artifacts.
Artifacts themselves became a color. If you play lots of artifacts, cards like Myr Enforcer, Frogmite, and Lodestone Myr are very powerful. If you supplemented blue, you have Thoughtcast, Broodstar, and Somber Hoverguard. If you supplement black, you have Nims and Skeleton Shard.
Equipment is a flavorful, tournament-worthy revamp of creature enchantments. The vulnerability and awkwardness of creature enchantments made them absolutely terrible for tournament play. Equipment is far more robust.
Imprint is entirely new. The modularity of Mirrodin is unprecedented.
But a great design team and a great creative team can be shot down by the developers. Now for the cons.
For multiplayer, all my opponents simply loaded up on the artifact removal to own me. I can't use Soul Foundry because it gets eaten by Shattering Pulse or Molder Slug. In fact, I can't use expensive or "clunky" artifacts period because there are Pernicious Deeds and Vengeances flying everywhere.
The colored artifacts lands are among the worst lands for multiplayer. One Deed, Vengeance, or Shatterstorm and you scoop. I've lost 12 permanents playing my Myr deck; Vengeance is basically a Jokulhaups targeting me.
What I'm saying is that I couldn't have any fun with my new Mirrodin cards because the answers were far more
brutal than the threats.
One-way untargetability like Troll Ascetic is just stupid. While it feels good when you're on the right side of the table, it's just far too annoying and discourages player interaction.
Darksteel artifacts are even worse. Making threats that are immune to removal is just stupid. This mechanic is should have been limited to Darksteel Citadel, Pendant, and Ingot, since I don't mind robust manabases. Darksteel Colossus is the best fattie ever printed, and he's not green.
Sundering Titan is no fun. At all. Remember when creatures that blow up lands where Demonic Hordes, Seismic Mage, Army Ants? Then they made them better and symmetrical with Keldon Firebombers and Desolation Angel? Well, lots of times Sundering Titan is an 8 mana 7/10 guy that Armageddons your opponent. Should never have been printed.
Skullclamp. Oh Skullclamp. Most tournament-dominating card ever? Top 8's showed up with 32 Skullclamps for 100% of the possible slots. Banned in almost all formats. "Distorting" the metagame is putting it lightly.
Now it seems that Standard, Mirrodin Block, and even Extended are overrun with the strongest and most robust aggro deck ever seen. Ravager Affinity is a deck where half it's plays are free and 1-for-1 artifact removal only loses you tempo if you paid more than 1 mana.
When I go to tournaments, I play Ravager Affinity or I play a worse deck.
I've had fun with Mirrodin cards. I had tons of fun with Skeleton Shard. I have a Power Conduit + Chalice of the Void deck. I have Nightmare Lashes in my Dancing Gnomes deck. I have an Arcane Isochron Scepter deck. I have a Cog / Door to Nothingness deck. I have a Mesmeric Orb deck.
But I haven't had nearly as much fun as I did during Odyssey or Onslaught block. Cranking the power level through the roof and throwing the color pie out the window does not make for a very good game.
R
Reverend Love
Guest
I have to say that I was more then a little peeved to be seeing indestructible make it's way into Kamigawa.
M
Mikeymike
Guest
That's a big no. The lands break Affinity like a wishbone. W/o them I wonder if they'd be able to stand up in block play.
I agree joreal (and great card selection by the way). Mirrodin inspired me to build a slew of decks that did not even touch their staple mechanics. My favorites are my Krark's Thumb, Shikari-Weenie, Power Conduit, and selfish untargetables (Troll/Wurm).Originally posted by jorael
Affinity is just too good. R&D admitted that. That is unfortunate for tournament players. I played a common affinity deck in our playgroup immediately when Mirrodin was out. Almost everyone in our playgroup did. And every affinity deck was nasty. Almost nobody plays it now anymore, because it isn't fun. The landaffinity aren't anything but broken, just good and fun! Fits the scourge theme perfectly. I would like to see more of such cards.
Yes, since Mirrodin block artifacts matter. Why is that a problem? Affinity is the only deck that is completely destroyed by mass artifact kill. Excellent! Before Mirrodin I played with disenchant, naturalize, scrap, keldon vandals and others. These days I certainly won't forget them. Enchantments and artifacts get destroyed, just like creatures. Cope
There are a LOT of artifacts that are fun to design decks with. And I'm very happy with Mirrodin for that reason. Some cards that I really like:
crystal shard
duplicant
lightning coils
pentavus
power conduit
scrabbling claws
skeleton shard (this one is nasty I have to admit, especially with myr retriever)
spellweaver helix
timesifter
And all the spellbombs and equipment
and the reprints:
bottle gnomes
triskelion
icy manipulator
Those are cards that inspire me to create decks with! And that's only the artifact section of the first expansion. I do not like the block's art much, but the cards are fine for creative deckbuilding.
Mirrodin, Darksteel and Fifth Dawn are more open for design than its predecessor: Onslaught block, if you ask me. Affinity may scream "USE LOTS OF ARTIFACTS STUPID!", but that's more open ended than USE LOTS OF ELVES/GOBLINS/ZOMBIES STUPID!
Kamigawa seems to have some mechanics that don't have too much synergy. On the other hand, the whole samurai thing is very boring. Dorks with bushido...
Plus there are a bunch of excellent cards (not broken) that I will be using for awhile, like Lightning Greaves, Duplicant (favorite creature ever), Memnarch, Gilded Lotus, mucho Scrye, and plenty more.
There are also a bunch still sitting around waiting to have some decks built around them. Sunburst stuff, Savage Beating, Mycosynth Golem, etc etc etc.
Yes, there are a lot of problem cards in Mirrodin, just like Saga. But also like Saga, there are a ton of gems. It is not at all difficult to get creative with this set.
R
Reverend Love
Guest
Spidey
Without the artifact lands Affinity wouldn't be as explosive, as in dropping it's hand turn 2. However no arty lands still don't fix black fireballs (disciple), shrapnel blast, and the headbutt of justice (cranial plating)
Without the artifact lands Affinity wouldn't be as explosive, as in dropping it's hand turn 2. However no arty lands still don't fix black fireballs (disciple), shrapnel blast, and the headbutt of justice (cranial plating)
Although good, I prefer Meltdown or Shatterstorm
What do you mean by "modular"?
And was you last sentence above referring to more affinity parts or the kill mechanisms of non-affinity decks?
Killer Joe
New member
Modal, maybe?
The sets of yore did seem to have more of a variety of spells that didn't neccessarily have synergy with each other like Affinity, Tribal or Cycling does. Todays sets are more themematic.
When you think of Champions, what comes to mind?
~Legendary Creatures and all of the cool stuff that helps them?
Betrayers?
~Ninjutsu?
Mirrodin?
~Affinity?
Onslaught?
~Cycling?
Odyessy?
~Madness?
Invasion?
~Lots of gold cards? Gating? Opposing Colors?
Mercadian Masques?
~Spellshapers?
Urza's Saga?
~Broken Lands ie Academy or Gaea's Cradle?
Tempest?
~Shadow? Slivers (first real tribal theme)
Mirage?
~I'm not sure WHAT dominated in this set that made me think of just one thing.
The sets of yore did seem to have more of a variety of spells that didn't neccessarily have synergy with each other like Affinity, Tribal or Cycling does. Todays sets are more themematic.
When you think of Champions, what comes to mind?
~Legendary Creatures and all of the cool stuff that helps them?
Betrayers?
~Ninjutsu?
Mirrodin?
~Affinity?
Onslaught?
~Cycling?
Odyessy?
~Madness?
Invasion?
~Lots of gold cards? Gating? Opposing Colors?
Mercadian Masques?
~Spellshapers?
Urza's Saga?
~Broken Lands ie Academy or Gaea's Cradle?
Tempest?
~Shadow? Slivers (first real tribal theme)
Mirage?
~I'm not sure WHAT dominated in this set that made me think of just one thing.
J
jorael
Guest
Meltdown and shatterstorm are more efficient, true. But they give opponents a chance to deal with them (as do viashino heretics which are awesome too).
What the Mchammer-dwarf do best is turn that aggro attention of affinity towards some other opponent... "You're attacking me? Stop! Hammer time!". Every player with a crucial artifact in play will have to deal with the creature or make an assessment if it will be worth harassing me as long as I can blow their permanents.
What the Mchammer-dwarf do best is turn that aggro attention of affinity towards some other opponent... "You're attacking me? Stop! Hammer time!". Every player with a crucial artifact in play will have to deal with the creature or make an assessment if it will be worth harassing me as long as I can blow their permanents.
L
Limited
Guest
Phasing.. good times. Phasing with a Soul Gorger Orc.. It's a bit of a gamble.
@jorael: Playing McHammer will just draw Anthony Affinity to you, trying to take you out before you can use the mage..
Perhaps combining the spellshaper with haste would be the most effective way of stating that Athony Affinity is your ... yours. Owned. Or something.
(just like mobilization + aura shards )
@jorael: Playing McHammer will just draw Anthony Affinity to you, trying to take you out before you can use the mage..
Perhaps combining the spellshaper with haste would be the most effective way of stating that Athony Affinity is your ... yours. Owned. Or something.
(just like mobilization + aura shards
)
J
jorael
Guest
@Limited: I think hammer mages draw less aggression towards me than the Mobilization + aura shards deck. It costs me a card to use the mage and isn't something that triggers automatically as with the aura shards. As long as I make clear that I won't drop the hammer (not banning anyone here, that's spidey's job ) until someone asks for it Anthony can be happy and bash you from 20 to 0
Giving it haste certainly has its advantages. Hmm... spellshapers, anger, madness, interesting!
) until someone asks for it Anthony can be happy and bash you from 20 to 0 Giving it haste certainly has its advantages. Hmm... spellshapers, anger, madness, interesting!
R
Reverend Love
Guest
Spidey
Without the artifact lands Affinity wouldn't be as explosive, as in dropping it's hand turn 2. However no arty lands still don't fix black fireballs (disciple), shrapnel blast, and the headbutt of justice (cranial plating)
Spidey...again
2 : constructed with standardized units or dimensions for flexibility and variety in use
Pasted directly from http://www.m-w.com with more emphasis put on the "variety of use".
Which last sentence are you referring to? My last post were I'm whining about Indestructible in Kamigawa?
Without the artifact lands Affinity wouldn't be as explosive, as in dropping it's hand turn 2. However no arty lands still don't fix black fireballs (disciple), shrapnel blast, and the headbutt of justice (cranial plating)
Spidey...again
2 : constructed with standardized units or dimensions for flexibility and variety in use
Pasted directly from http://www.m-w.com with more emphasis put on the "variety of use".
Which last sentence are you referring to? My last post were I'm whining about Indestructible in Kamigawa?
R
Reverend Love
Guest
Those are all tricks available to affinity.