MindMaster Stronghold: Spidey vs BigBlue

B

BigBlue

Guest
I thought once a permanent changes type it lost any counters or auras which only pertain to it's original type). I don't think it'll matter too much at this point... but I suppose if they don't stay it could change your play - which would change mine as well...

Like putting counters on a Mishra's Factory, once it's not a creature anymore, I thought all counters were taken off.
 
S

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
I thought they DO stay, unless that's a "recent" change. Maybe we should look this up, 'cause it does change my play :)
 
B

BigBlue

Guest
Here's what I found... However, this would indicate effects (like the destroy effect) also remain with it, so I think it will be destroyed at the end of combat whether it's an enchantment aura or not...

212.1b. When an object’s card type changes, the new card type(s) replaces any existing card types. Counters, effects, and damage affecting the object remain with it, even if they are meaningless to the new card type. Similarly, when one or more of an object’s subtypes changes, the new subtype(s) replaces any existing subtypes from the appropriate set (creature types, land types, artifact types, enchantment types, planeswalker types, or spell types). If an object’s card type is removed, the subtypes correlated with that card type will remain if they are also the subtypes of a card type the object currently has; otherwise, they are also removed for the entire time the object’s card type is removed. Removing an object’s subtype doesn’t affect its card types at all.

Unless of course you change it's type before damage... :)
 
S

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
I must be reading it a different way - if I change the type from creature to Aura enchantment, it's no longer a creature so even though the destroy effect remains with it, it's "meaningless" as it no longer applies to the card type.

Judge! :)
 
B

BigBlue

Guest
See, I think a Jade Statue dies at the end of combat even though it ceases being a creature too...

However, we should continue since I pumped and you pumped so, you could just as easilly activate it before damage since you weren't going to kill the basilisk anyways (unless you have something to do an additional point).
 
S

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
Well, actually, I pumped with the idea in mind that the Licid keeps his counters. Otherwise, I would just block and activate the ability.

I guess no one else is monitoring this thread so I'll ask in Rules.
 
B

BigBlue

Guest
The Licid does keep his counters.

I'm just saying the destroy effect (which is in dispute0 doesn't matter since you pumped hoping to kill the basilisk before switching and since I pumped too, damage is not relevent. :) So, you could switch after pumping if the rule were to go against you and you'd still keep your counters etc.

It may come into play later, but for now it doesn't matter.
 
S

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
See, I got confused over the weekend by which issue we were debating :)

I will indeed tap R to turn him into an Aura enchantment attached to your Wall of Souls before Dmg.
 
S

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
Untap, upkeep

Island

Done

SpiderMan: 16
Hand: 7
In Play

(U) Plains
(U,U,U) Mt x3
(U,U) Forest x2
(U,U) Swamp x2
(U) Island

(U) Wall of Essence (0/4, Defender, Whenever ~ is dealt combat dmg, I gain that much life)
(U) Convulsing Licid (4/4, R, T: ~ loses this ability and becomes an Aura enchantment with enchant creature. Attach it to target creature. I may pay R to end this effect. Enchanted creature can't block) * 2 +1/+1 counter *
(U) Tempting Licid (2/2, G, T: ~ loses this ability and becomes an Aura enchantment with enchant creature. Attach it to target creature. I may pay G to end this effect. All creatures able to block enchanted creature do so)

Graveyard: Spike Worker, Morgue Thrull, Mogg Infestation, Shock, Spike Worker
Removed:
------------------------------------------------------------
BigBlue: 20
Hand: 7
In Play

(TT) Plains
(T) Mountain
(TT) Swamp
(TT) Forest
(TT) Island

(U) Wall of Souls (0/4; Defender; When ~ is dealt combat damage, it deals that much damage back to target opponent)
(T) Lowland Basilisk (3/5; Whenever ~ deals dmg to a creature, destroy it at end of combat) *2 +1/+1 Counters*
(U) Venerable Monk (2/2; When ~ cip, I gain 2 life)
(U) Spike Colony (2/2, ~ CIP with 4 +1/+1 ctrs. 2, Remove a +1/+1 ctr from ~: Put a +1/+1 ctr on target creature) *2 +1/+1 ctrs*

Graveyard: Shock, Duct Crawler, Scapegoat, Corrupting Licid
Removed:
------------------------
(U) Rabid Rats (1/1; T: Target blocking creature gets -1/-1 until eot)
(S) Spined Wurm (5/4)
 
B

BigBlue

Guest
Untap

Play Mountain, Attack w/ Basilisk.

SpiderMan: 16
Hand: 7
In Play

(Ench) Convulsing Licid (4/4, R, T: ~ loses this ability and becomes an Aura enchantment with enchant creature. Attach it to target creature. I may pay R to end this effect. Enchanted creature can't block) * 2 +1/+1 counter * (On Wall of Souls)

(U) Plains
(U,U,U) Mt x3
(U,U) Forest x2
(U,U) Swamp x2
(U) Island

(U) Wall of Essence (0/4, Defender, Whenever ~ is dealt combat dmg, I gain that much life)

(U) Tempting Licid (2/2, G, T: ~ loses this ability and becomes an Aura enchantment with enchant creature. Attach it to target creature. I may pay G to end this effect. All creatures able to block enchanted creature do so)

Graveyard: Spike Worker, Morgue Thrull, Mogg Infestation, Shock, Spike Worker
Removed:
------------------------------------------------------------
BigBlue: 20
Hand: 7
In Play

(UU) Plains
(UU) Mountain
(UU) Swamp
(UU) Forest
(UU) Island

(U) Wall of Souls (0/4; Defender; When ~ is dealt combat damage, it deals that much damage back to target opponent) *Convulsing Violently*
(T) Lowland Basilisk (3/5; Whenever ~ deals dmg to a creature, destroy it at end of combat) *2 +1/+1 Counters*
(U) Venerable Monk (2/2; When ~ cip, I gain 2 life)
(U) Spike Colony (2/2, ~ CIP with 4 +1/+1 ctrs. 2, Remove a +1/+1 ctr from ~: Put a +1/+1 ctr on target creature) *2 +1/+1 ctrs*

Graveyard: Shock, Duct Crawler, Scapegoat, Corrupting Licid
Removed:
------------------------
(U) Rabid Rats (1/1; T: Target blocking creature gets -1/-1 until eot)
(S) Spined Wurm (5/4)
 
B

BigBlue

Guest
Untap

Play Mountain, Announce Attack

(You played Change of Heart w/ Buyback targetting Basilisk)

No Attackers.

Play Dream Prowler, Done.

SpiderMan: 16
Hand: 7
In Play

(Ench) Convulsing Licid (4/4, R, T: ~ loses this ability and becomes an Aura enchantment with enchant creature. Attach it to target creature. I may pay R to end this effect. Enchanted creature can't block) * 2 +1/+1 counter * (On Wall of Souls)

(U) Plains
(U,U,U) Mt x3
(U,U) Forest x2
(U,U) Swamp x2
(U) Island

(U) Wall of Essence (0/4, Defender, Whenever ~ is dealt combat dmg, I gain that much life)

(U) Tempting Licid (2/2, G, T: ~ loses this ability and becomes an Aura enchantment with enchant creature. Attach it to target creature. I may pay G to end this effect. All creatures able to block enchanted creature do so)

Graveyard: Spike Worker, Morgue Thrull, Mogg Infestation, Shock, Spike Worker
Removed:
------------------------------------------------------------
BigBlue: 20
Hand: 6
In Play

(UU) Plains
(UU) Mountain
(TU) Swamp
(TU) Forest
(TT) Island

(U) Wall of Souls (0/4; Defender; When ~ is dealt combat damage, it deals that much damage back to target opponent) *Convulsing Violently*
(U) Lowland Basilisk (3/5; Whenever ~ deals dmg to a creature, destroy it at end of combat) *2 +1/+1 Counters*
(U) Venerable Monk (2/2; When ~ cip, I gain 2 life)
(U) Spike Colony (2/2, ~ CIP with 4 +1/+1 ctrs. 2, Remove a +1/+1 ctr from ~: Put a +1/+1 ctr on target creature) *2 +1/+1 ctrs*
(S) Dream Prowler (1/5; If ~ is the only attacker, ~ is unblockable)

Graveyard: Shock, Duct Crawler, Scapegoat, Corrupting Licid
Removed:
 
S

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
Oh man...

EOT turn my Licid back into a creature

Untap, upkeep

Swamp
Brush with Death w/buyback (Buyback 2BB. Target opponent loses 2 life. I gain 2 life)
Responses?

SpiderMan: 16
Hand: 7
In Play

(U) Plains
(T,T,U) Mt x3
(T,U) Forest x2
(T,T,T) Swamp x3
(T) Island

(U) Wall of Essence (0/4, Defender, Whenever ~ is dealt combat dmg, I gain that much life)

(U) Tempting Licid (2/2, G, T: ~ loses this ability and becomes an Aura enchantment with enchant creature. Attach it to target creature. I may pay G to end this effect. All creatures able to block enchanted creature do so)
(U) Convulsing Licid (4/4, R, T: ~ loses this ability and becomes an Aura enchantment with enchant creature. Attach it to target creature. I may pay R to end this effect. Enchanted creature can't block) * 2 +1/+1 counter *

Graveyard: Spike Worker, Morgue Thrull, Mogg Infestation, Shock, Spike Worker
Removed:
------------------------------------------------------------
BigBlue: 20
Hand: 6
In Play

(UU) Plains
(UU) Mountain
(TU) Swamp
(TU) Forest
(TT) Island

(U) Wall of Souls (0/4; Defender; When ~ is dealt combat damage, it deals that much damage back to target opponent)
(U) Lowland Basilisk (3/5; Whenever ~ deals dmg to a creature, destroy it at end of combat) *2 +1/+1 Counters*
(U) Venerable Monk (2/2; When ~ cip, I gain 2 life)
(U) Spike Colony (2/2, ~ CIP with 4 +1/+1 ctrs. 2, Remove a +1/+1 ctr from ~: Put a +1/+1 ctr on target creature) *2 +1/+1 ctrs*
(S) Dream Prowler (1/5; If ~ is the only attacker, ~ is unblockable)

Graveyard: Shock, Duct Crawler, Scapegoat, Corrupting Licid
Removed:
 
S

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
Done

SpiderMan: 18
Hand: 7
In Play

(U) Plains
(T,T,U) Mt x3
(T,U) Forest x2
(T,T,T) Swamp x3
(T) Island

(U) Wall of Essence (0/4, Defender, Whenever ~ is dealt combat dmg, I gain that much life)

(U) Tempting Licid (2/2, G, T: ~ loses this ability and becomes an Aura enchantment with enchant creature. Attach it to target creature. I may pay G to end this effect. All creatures able to block enchanted creature do so)
(U) Convulsing Licid (4/4, R, T: ~ loses this ability and becomes an Aura enchantment with enchant creature. Attach it to target creature. I may pay R to end this effect. Enchanted creature can't block) * 2 +1/+1 counter *

Graveyard: Spike Worker, Morgue Thrull, Mogg Infestation, Shock, Spike Worker
Removed:
------------------------------------------------------------
BigBlue: 18
Hand: 6
In Play

(UU) Plains
(UU) Mountain
(TU) Swamp
(TU) Forest
(TT) Island

(U) Wall of Souls (0/4; Defender; When ~ is dealt combat damage, it deals that much damage back to target opponent)
(U) Lowland Basilisk (3/5; Whenever ~ deals dmg to a creature, destroy it at end of combat) *2 +1/+1 Counters*
(U) Venerable Monk (2/2; When ~ cip, I gain 2 life)
(U) Spike Colony (2/2, ~ CIP with 4 +1/+1 ctrs. 2, Remove a +1/+1 ctr from ~: Put a +1/+1 ctr on target creature) *2 +1/+1 ctrs*
(S) Dream Prowler (1/5; If ~ is the only attacker, ~ is unblockable)

Graveyard: Shock, Duct Crawler, Scapegoat, Corrupting Licid
Removed:
 
B

BigBlue

Guest
At your eot, I'll move a counter from the colony to the Prowler.

Untap

Announce Attack

SpiderMan: 18
Hand: 7
In Play

(U) Plains
(T,T,U) Mt x3
(T,U) Forest x2
(T,T,T) Swamp x3
(T) Island

(U) Wall of Essence (0/4, Defender, Whenever ~ is dealt combat dmg, I gain that much life)

(U) Tempting Licid (2/2, G, T: ~ loses this ability and becomes an Aura enchantment with enchant creature. Attach it to target creature. I may pay G to end this effect. All creatures able to block enchanted creature do so)
(U) Convulsing Licid (4/4, R, T: ~ loses this ability and becomes an Aura enchantment with enchant creature. Attach it to target creature. I may pay R to end this effect. Enchanted creature can't block) * 2 +1/+1 counter *

Graveyard: Spike Worker, Morgue Thrull, Mogg Infestation, Shock, Spike Worker
Removed:
------------------------------------------------------------
BigBlue: 18
Hand: 6
In Play

(UU) Plains
(UU) Mountain
(UU) Swamp
(UU) Forest
(UU) Island

(U) Wall of Souls (0/4; Defender; When ~ is dealt combat damage, it deals that much damage back to target opponent)
(U) Lowland Basilisk (3/5; Whenever ~ deals dmg to a creature, destroy it at end of combat) *2 +1/+1 Counters*
(U) Venerable Monk (2/2; When ~ cip, I gain 2 life)
(U) Spike Colony (1/1, ~ CIP with 4 +1/+1 ctrs. 2, Remove a +1/+1 ctr from ~: Put a +1/+1 ctr on target creature) *1 +1/+1 ctr*
(U) Dream Prowler (2/6; If ~ is the only attacker, ~ is unblockable) *1 +1/+1 Counter*

Graveyard: Shock, Duct Crawler, Scapegoat, Corrupting Licid
Removed:
 
B

BigBlue

Guest
BigBlue said:
At your eot, I'll move a counter from the colony to the Prowler.

Untap

Announce Attack

(no response)

Attack w/ the Prowler for 2. Play Spined Wurm, Done.

SpiderMan: 16
Hand: 7
In Play

(U) Plains
(T,T,U) Mt x3
(T,U) Forest x2
(T,T,T) Swamp x3
(T) Island

(U) Wall of Essence (0/4, Defender, Whenever ~ is dealt combat dmg, I gain that much life)

(U) Tempting Licid (2/2, G, T: ~ loses this ability and becomes an Aura enchantment with enchant creature. Attach it to target creature. I may pay G to end this effect. All creatures able to block enchanted creature do so)
(U) Convulsing Licid (4/4, R, T: ~ loses this ability and becomes an Aura enchantment with enchant creature. Attach it to target creature. I may pay R to end this effect. Enchanted creature can't block) * 2 +1/+1 counter *

Graveyard: Spike Worker, Morgue Thrull, Mogg Infestation, Shock, Spike Worker
Removed:
------------------------------------------------------------
BigBlue: 18
Hand: 5
In Play

(TU) Plains
(TU) Mountain
(TU) Swamp
(TU) Forest
(TU) Island

(U) Wall of Souls (0/4; Defender; When ~ is dealt combat damage, it deals that much damage back to target opponent)
(U) Lowland Basilisk (3/5; Whenever ~ deals dmg to a creature, destroy it at end of combat) *2 +1/+1 Counters*
(U) Venerable Monk (2/2; When ~ cip, I gain 2 life)
(U) Spike Colony (1/1, ~ CIP with 4 +1/+1 ctrs. 2, Remove a +1/+1 ctr from ~: Put a +1/+1 ctr on target creature) *1 +1/+1 ctr*
(T) Dream Prowler (2/6; If ~ is the only attacker, ~ is unblockable) *1 +1/+1 Counter*
(S) Spined Wurm (5/4)

Graveyard: Shock, Duct Crawler, Scapegoat, Corrupting Licid
Removed:
Click to expand...
 
S

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
Untap, upkeep, Done

SpiderMan: 16
Hand: 7
In Play

(U) Plains
(U,U,U) Mt x3
(U,U) Forest x2
(U,U,U) Swamp x3
(U) Island

(U) Wall of Essence (0/4, Defender, Whenever ~ is dealt combat dmg, I gain that much life)

(U) Tempting Licid (2/2, G, T: ~ loses this ability and becomes an Aura enchantment with enchant creature. Attach it to target creature. I may pay G to end this effect. All creatures able to block enchanted creature do so)
(U) Convulsing Licid (4/4, R, T: ~ loses this ability and becomes an Aura enchantment with enchant creature. Attach it to target creature. I may pay R to end this effect. Enchanted creature can't block) * 2 +1/+1 counter *

Graveyard: Spike Worker, Morgue Thrull, Mogg Infestation, Shock, Spike Worker
Removed:
------------------------------------------------------------
BigBlue: 18
Hand: 5
In Play

(TU) Plains
(TU) Mountain
(TU) Swamp
(TU) Forest
(TU) Island

(U) Wall of Souls (0/4; Defender; When ~ is dealt combat damage, it deals that much damage back to target opponent)
(U) Lowland Basilisk (3/5; Whenever ~ deals dmg to a creature, destroy it at end of combat) *2 +1/+1 Counters*
(U) Venerable Monk (2/2; When ~ cip, I gain 2 life)
(U) Spike Colony (1/1, ~ CIP with 4 +1/+1 ctrs. 2, Remove a +1/+1 ctr from ~: Put a +1/+1 ctr on target creature) *1 +1/+1 ctr*
(T) Dream Prowler (2/6; If ~ is the only attacker, ~ is unblockable) *1 +1/+1 Counter*
(S) Spined Wurm (5/4)

Graveyard: Shock, Duct Crawler, Scapegoat, Corrupting Licid
Removed:
 
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