IYO Whats broken?

Discussion in 'General CPA Stuff' started by shadow_acid, Apr 6, 2004.

  1. shadow_acid Spaceborn Hedgehog

    What cards do you think are broken?

    I have a large list that i will post soon but what do you think they never should have made.
  2. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    You talking about any card ever made? From Alpha on?
  3. train The Wildcard!!!...

    I don't think there'd be a large list if it were only the current format - so I'll ass-u-me that you mean all sets - Most broken - Island... next most broken - Dream Halls... then counterspell...
  4. shadow_acid Spaceborn Hedgehog

    Yes i mean anything.

    And what is the problem with island. Its a basic land for christ sake!
  5. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    You have to know train and his aversion to blue...
  6. train The Wildcard!!!...

    aversion might be an understatement...;)

    but - as a common - there's more of them than any other card - and as a common land - well... now you understand...
  7. Istanbul Sucker MCs call me sire.

    Where to start...

    Black Lotus
    Moxen
    Necropotence
    Ancestral Recall
    Time Walk
    Timetwister
    Serendib Efreet
    Necropotence
    Strip Mine
    Sol Ring
    Tolarian Academy
    Gaea's Cradle
    Mishra's Workshop
    Necropotence
    Force of Will
    Cursed Scroll
    Crystalline Sliver
    Mox Diamond
    Survival of the Fittest
    Necropotence
    Morphling
    Memory Jar
    Masticore
    Yawgmoth's Bargain
    Yawgmoth's Will
    Demonic Tutor
    Necropotence
    Blastoderm
    Fact or Fiction
    Upheaval
    Mirari's Wake
    Exalted Angel
    Necropotence

    Also, I think Necropotence is the most broken card ever.
  8. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    I know some cards that I consider broken, I guess, but I still wouldn't take back their being printed. In many cases, they can cancel each other out, plus they were learning experiences, plus power is cool! But off the top of my head...

    Black Lotus
    Mox Pearl
    Mox Sapphire
    Mox Jet
    Mox Ruby
    Mox Emerald
    Ancestral Recall
    Time Walk
    Timetwister
    Wheel of Fortune
    Balance
    Sol Ring
    Mana Vault
    Mind Twist
    Fastbond
    Regrowth
    Berserk
    Dark Ritual
    Lightning Bolt
    Fork
    Demonic Tutor
    Illusionary Mask (with Phyrexian Dreadnought, especially)
    Icy Manipulator
    Winter Orb
    Forcefield
    Word of Command
    Hypnotic Specter
    Sinkhole
    Braingeyser
    Savannah Lions
    Birds of Paradise
    Black Vise
    Swords to Plowshares
    All ten dual lands

    Library of Alexandria
    Juzam Djinn
    City of Brass
    Serendib Efreet
    Drop of Honey
    Kird Ape
    Bazaar of Baghdad
    Ernham Djinn
    Guardian Beast

    Mishra's Workshop
    Strip Mine
    Candelabra of Tawnos
    Mishra's Factory
    Hurkyl's Recall
    Ivory Tower
    Millstone
    The Rack
    The three Urza's lands

    Mana Drain
    Sylvan Library
    Land Tax
    The Abyss
    Moat
    Boomerang
    Mirror Universe
    Nether Void
    Force Spike
    Chain Lightning

    Ball Lightning
    Maze of Ith
    Tormod's Crypt

    Hymn to Tourach
    Goblin Grenade
    High Tide

    Necropotence
    Pox
    Jester's Cap
    Enduring Renewal
    Zuran Orb
    Demonic Consultation
    Mystic Remora :p
    All five painlands

    Merchant Scroll

    Force of Will
    Thawing Glaciers
    Kjeldoran Outpost
    Lake of the Dead
    Scars of the Veteran
    Contagion
    Exile

    Enlightened Tutor
    Mystical Tutor
    Hammer of Bogardan
    Cadaverous Bloom
    Lion's Eye Diamond
    Kaervek's Torch
    Natural Balance

    Vampiric Tutor
    Fireblast
    Impulse
    Undiscovered Paradise
    City of Solitude
    Squandered Resources
    Prosperity
    Helm of Awakening
    Natural Order

    Gemstone Mine
    Ophidian
    Gaea's Blessing
    Buried Alive
    Abeyance
    Spinning Darkness
    Lotus Vale
    Scorched Ruins

    Intuition
    Cursed Scroll
    Lotus Petal
    Mogg Fanatic
    Living Death
    Meditate
    Verdant Force
    Aluren
    Scroll Rack
    Propaganda
    Auratog
    Capsize
    Earthcraft
    Humility
    Ancient Tomb
    Diabolic Edict
    Reap
    Wasteland

    Mox Diamond
    Dream Halls
    Ensnaring Bridge
    Hermit Druid
    Megrim
    Spike Feeder
    Wall of Blossoms
    Volrath's Shapeshifter
    Crystalline Sliver
    Pursuit of Knowledge
    Horn of Greed

    Oath of Druids
    Mind over Matter
    Survival of the Fittest
    Recurring Nightmare
    Equilibrium
    City of Traitors
    Hatred
    Forbid
    Pandemonium
    Spike Weaver
    Sonic Burst
    Ertai, Wizard Adept

    Tolarian Academy
    Yawgmoth's Will
    Time Spiral
    Windfall
    Sneak Attack
    Morphling
    Gaea's Cradle
    Serra's Sanctum
    Abundance
    Exhume
    Humble
    Planar Void
    Arcane Laboratory
    Fecundity
    Stroke of Genius
    Gamble
    Worship
    Duress
    Karn, Silver Golem
    Fluctuator
    Phyrexian Processor
    Thran Quarry
    Voltaic Key
    Wildfire
    Elvish Lyrist
    Phyrexian Colossus
    Contamination
    Exploration
    Exhume
    Pariah
    Serra Avatar
    Smokestack
    Argothian Enchantress

    Memory Jar
    Tinker
    Rancor
    Treetop Village
    Deranged Hermit
    Crop Rotation
    Frantic Search
    Palinchron
    Mother of Runes
    Grim Monolith
    Goblin Welder
    Defense Grid
    Phyrexian Plaguelord
    Snap

    Academy Rector
    Replenish
    Yawgmoth's Bargain
    Masticore
    Opposition
    Phyrexian Negator
    Metalworker
    Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
    Bubbling Muck
    Donate
    Eradicate
    Keldon Champion
    Powder Keg
    Junk Diver
    Thieving Magpie
    Thorn Elemental
    Yavimaya Hollow
    Thran Dynamo
    Treachery
    Bubbling Muck
    Covetous Dragon
    Elvish Piper
    Extruder
    Opalescence
    Pattern of Rebirth
    Scrying Glass

    Story Circle
    Rishadan Port
    Unmask
    Ramosian Sergeant
    Gush
    Ivory Mask
    Misdirection
    Squee, Goblin Nabob
    Nether Spirit
    Conspiracy
    Delraich
    Puffer Extract
    Foster
    All five depletion counter lands (Remote Farm, etc.)

    Saproling Burst
    Tangle Wire
    Lin-Sivvi, Defiant Hero
    Blastoderm
    Parallax Wave
    Parallax Tide
    Rhox
    Accumulated Knowledge
    Seal of Removal
    Rootwater Thief
    Saproling Cluster
    Seal of Fire

    Avatar of Woe
    Chimeric Idol
    Foil
    Mageta, the Lion
    Aura Fracture
    Spore Frog
    Rhystic Scrying
    Avatar of Fury
    Vitalizing Wind
    Denying Wind

    Obviously this isn't even a comprehensive list, and it's still pretty long (okay, some of the cards are just really cool, and not truly broken...)
  9. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Let's define "broken" here to make sure everyone's on the same page. I mean, you two listed some creatures (Oversoul more than Isty), but is Serendib Efreet really "broken" (maybe I'd better look up what it actually is ;) )? I think Blastoderm is on the fence too (Oversoul's list is just way too extensive, so I'm picking from Isty's :) )
  10. shadow_acid Spaceborn Hedgehog

    ok we pretty much have every old card that is considered broken by everybody, but i see a huge list, like Oversouls list, only for newer cards from invasion on. (even though im a big invasion block fan). i do think that they didnt realize what they did when they made fact or fiction, the best of the divvys.
  11. train The Wildcard!!!...

    I didn't see island on either of them...:mad:



    :p
  12. Rooser Thread Necromancer

    Hmm - I take a different stance. Yes, if we could go back in time and redo magic in the name of good balance, most of alpha wouldn't even be there, and many cards since have clearly proved their "uh-oh" factor.

    But there's two kinds of broken: Undercosted Broken and Overpowered Broken. Most broken cards are just undercosted. Opportunity's effect is more powerful than Ancestral Recall's, Ancestral Recall is only stronger because it costs way too little for what it does. (Yes, I'm channelling Bullhead here). What I'm saying is very few cards have effects that should not exist no matter what they cost. In fact I can think of only one-

    Dream Halls.

    There might be others, but right now that's all that is coming to mind.
  13. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Heh, one of my favorites...

    But Bargain and some other enchantments would be good regardless of CC thanks to the utterly broken Academy Rector (most broken creature ever, IMO).
  14. Nightstalkers Creature — Nightstalker

    All that and Donate.
  15. Notepad Seffy Sefro

    Currently:

    Skullclamp
    Arcbound Ravager
    Broodstar
  16. Istanbul Sucker MCs call me sire.

    #1: Donate is not broken. I would even argue that Illusions of Grandeur is not broken, only that it needs errata to work the way it was OBVIOUSLY intended to work.

    #2: Broodstar is not broken. To make it very powerful (bigger than, say, 4/4 or 5/5) you have to cram him into a deck FULL of artifacts. And if we're going with the overall card pool, one Shatterstorm or Purify or Seeds of Innocence r0xx0rz ur b0xx0rz.

    #3: I will now add some cards to my list that I left off, that I felt really are broken.
    Wheel of Fortune
    Balance
    Mana Vault
    Fastbond
    Dark Ritual
    Fork
    Word of Command
    Sinkhole
    Black Vise
    Swords to Plowshares
    All ten dual lands

    Library of Alexandria
    Candelabra of Tawnos
    Hurkyl's Recall
    The Rack
    Mana Drain
    Land Tax
    The Abyss
    Moat
    Nether Void
    Tormod's Crypt
    Hymn to Tourach
    High Tide

    Enduring Renewal
    Zuran Orb
    Demonic Consultation
    Merchant Scroll
    Kjeldoran Outpost

    Enlightened Tutor
    Mystical Tutor
    Cadaverous Bloom
    Vampiric Tutor
    Fireblast
    Impulse
    Squandered Resources
    Gaea's Blessing

    Intuition
    Scroll Rack
    Propaganda
    Earthcraft
    Wasteland
    Dream Halls
    Spike Feeder
    Horn of Greed
    Oath of Druids
    Mind over Matter
    Hatred
    Forbid
    Pandemonium
    Spike Weaver

    Time Spiral
    Windfall
    Sneak Attack
    Exhume
    Gamble
    Fluctuator
    Voltaic Key
    Contamination
    Tinker
    Rancor
    Crop Rotation
    Frantic Search
    Mother of Runes
    Grim Monolith
    Replenish
    Opposition
    Metalworker
    Treachery
    Bubbling Muck
    Covetous Dragon

    Story Circle
    Gush
    Misdirection
    Nether Spirit
    Saproling Burst
    Tangle Wire
    Lin-Sivvi, Defiant Hero
    Parallax Wave
    Parallax Tide
    Rootwater Thief
    Foil

    Yes, I added a lot of cards...but I also left out a LOT that were on Oversoul's list. I think that somewhere along the line, he lost track of the difference between 'good' and 'broken'.
  17. Spiderman CPA Man in Tights, Dopey Administrative Assistant

    Once again, no one's really saying why a card's broken except for Rooser and slightly Oversoul. I think there's a couple categories of "broken":

    Stand-alone cards that are cheap for their effect (I guess undercosted broken, like what Rooser said). Balance, Wheel of Fortune, StP, mana producing artifacts that produce more than what they cost getting out, etc.

    Cards that break Magic's Rules: Dream Halls.

    Cards that are good by themselves but can be placed in unstoppable combos: ProsBloom?
  18. Rooser Thread Necromancer

    Yeah, both Yawgmoth's Will and Bargain might simply be Overpowered, and maybe Mind's Desire too.

    So that's my list:

    Dream Halls
    Mind's Desire
    Yawhmoth's Will
    Yawgmoth's Bargain

    And I guess Necropotence would belong there too. So:

    Necropotence
  19. Apollo Bird Boy

    I think a lot of cards are being thrown out that are merely powerful, not broken (Goblin Welder? Serra Avatar?).

    I think a card is only broken if it completely changes the play environment, like Necropotence and Memory Jar did. And "completely changes the play environment" does not mean "added a new deck to the environment." Like, for example, Sneak attack. Sneak Attack isn't broken. It's never even been a truly elite deck, much less dominated an environment, has it?

    The exception to this are grossly undercosted cards that can be a benefit to a good number of decks, like Swords to Plowshares or Land Tax or Fastbond. But again, "grossly undercosted" does not mean "efficient." Cards like Propaganda and Mother of Runes are good, not broken.

    I think any of the super long lists provided here could easily be sliced in half... by someone with time on their hands.
  20. Oversoul The Tentacled One

    Well yes, I did state that some of them would usually not be considered broken, just really cool. I mean, it would be easy to cut that list, especially if "broken" were clearly defined. If it is merely a term used to denote powerful cards, then my list, though long, isn't as extensive as we could go. If you change it to "cards that had massive impact on some format or another" then a great many of the cards on my list did not, and I probably didn't miss too many either (depending on how many formats you look into).

    A good example would be Donate. It definitely made an impact--on more than one format, I suppose. But Istanbul asserts that it is not broken, and I can't fully disagree with him. I think in order to clarify what is broken, we'd need to come up with a consensus as to what "broken" means.

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